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Suspect Discussion: Virizion(Not Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Xdevo, Dec 27, 2015.

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  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    [​IMG]


    Discuss the possibility of Virzion being banned from the ORAS NU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Virizion's effect on the metagame; talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think it should be banned, but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted.

    If you're unsure about posting check out this guide and post anyway.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2015
  2. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Virizion has been a top NU threat for a long time now, and it easily justifies it's S-rank in the viability rankings. Although it has modest attacking stats, it's backed up by an excellent 108 base speed and access to both Swords Dance/Calm Mind which allows it to act as a solid wallbreaker if it manages to set up. SD sets are particularly deadly, as STAB Leaf Blade/Close Combat coming from a boosted 558 attack stat hits pretty damn hard, and Stone Edge/Zen Headbutt both are excellent coverage moves to deal with most of it's checks. CM Virizion is quite effective too, utilizing it's high special defense stat and managing to set up freely on water-types like Lanturn (doesn't fear Scald); but SD set is generally the better wallbreaker in NU. Other sets would include SubSD/Sub Salac/SubCM: all of which have their uses and all are capable of dishing out serious damage to the opposing team before going down.

    However, Virizion isn't that hard to stop most of the times, and there are plenty of common NU mons that check it well. The SD set gets hard-walled depending on the coverage move it's running; for eg. if it's running Stone edge (which is on majority of the sets) then it gets walled by the poison types in the tier like Vileplume/Garbodor/Weezing, and all of them KO or cripple it in return. Similarly when it's running Zen Headbutt as coverage then it gets walled by Xatu/Scyther/Rotom-S, all of them capable of potentially OHKOing Virizion in return. The presence of bulky psychic types in the tier like Uxie/Musharna/Mesprit doesn't help it's cause either, as all of them run Psyshock to hit Virizion's weaker Def stat, potentially OHKOing it when in return it fails to OHKO even with a +2 LO Leaf Blade. The CM set has trouble getting past bulky Poison/Psychic types in the tier, and it's usually inferior as a wallbreaker since people have to rely on focus blasts's shaky accuracy (and without sub it's pretty much Twave bait, and with sub it's losing out on HP Fire/Ice to hit Vileplume, it's most common switch-in). So overall Virizion lacks the raw attacking power to beat most of it's checks, even after managing to set up it can be taken down because it's checks/counters are extremely common.

    Tldr; I'm really on the fence regarding this. Virizion is a huge threat in NU without question, but I'm finding it hard to call it 'broken' because of the plethora of NU mons that can check it reliably most of the times. I'd like to hear more arguments before I make up my mind on this one, so keep the posts coming!
     
  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    In NU Draciel 108 base speed isn't just Excellent where you'd call it "decent" in the higher tiers, it's absolutely amazing. Virizion has definitely been on of NU's top Pokemon for a long time, and that's because no matter what, there's a very shallow group of Pokemon that can outspeed and threaten it outside Choice Scarf users whom don't really have a switch in opportunity to Virizion. I will give that it's base 90 offenses are "considerably" lacking that it's not overpowered in the sense like other wallbreakers, but that speed of it almost guarantees a very few niche Offensive options are going to take it out if it has set up.

    Physical and Special sets have been covered by Draciel. Physical can't touch Poisons or Flying types depending on the 4th move. Special can't touch Bulky Poison or some Psychics that are bulky as well and have Psyshock.

    It does also have the third option of running a mixed set with Work Up, which against still has a bit of problems against the same Mons, but gives for more versatile use with using CC and Giga Drain for recovery, and then choosing your 4th option to cover what you need like before. Though this only gives rise to use of Taunt as a possible 4th option unless you can work a Screen set, otherwise the same old 4th options stay.

    I'm on the fence also about it, because it's not something that can't be beaten, it's just you can't use a whole plethora of Pokemon that are able to be used in the tier, because of certain Pokemon like Virizion and a small group of others being so impossible to deal with unless you have some very specific teams spots, it's created a very stagnant and flat-lining metagame. I could argue a few other of the bans NU has had, where it would be hard to outright call "Broken" with options available, but still for the betterment of the metagame still got axed. When you think of the short list of things you would need to have on a team just to deal with Virizion, it's just something I can't say is exactly healthy for everything that can't deal with the monster.

    Short list:
    -Tauros (Out speeds, KOs with Zen Headbutt, Rock Climb would have to need extra damage done to KO, both less than 100 accuracy, both for me at least fairly likely to miss when needed).

    -Jumpluff (Out speeds, and Acro can kill Virizion, great mon, though a lot of it's set up and usability relies on accuracy luck as well).

    -Ninjask (No one really uses Ninjask, and for good reason, it's an option, but it's not a very solid one outside running Banded U-Turn for Volt Turn cores).

    - Sneasel (Out speeds, KOs with Ice Move, but arguably people want this suspected, gone, or talked about, not sure how well this is taken into account with the philosophy unhealthy/broken shouldn't check/counter unhealthy/broken to stay in a metagame).

    - Swoobat (Out speeds, and any move it carries should kill outside unboosted Stored Power).

    - Ambipom, Cinccino, Floatzel (All out speed, and can kill, but all can get kind of walled or locked in with a simple switch, and unfortunately don't have much ability to survive a longer game.)

    - General Scarf users who are of Physical sets can hope for OHKO kills in general or Viri to fail to OHKO, but there's not much switch in for these Pokemon. Not too many of these but, Sawk, Primeape are prime examples, or lesser versions like Jynx or Magmortar are top options to just mess with players. There's a fair amount of options, just scarf is somewhat a semi-dead breed in NU right now because you want to cover and hit so much with power....well not want, but HAVE TO cover with power, that if it can't break then you put yourself in trouble, because that's what the metagame is like.

    I'll give each set can be taken care of, but Virizion can work around them with the opposite set. Things meant to check the Physical severally struggle with the Special set after even 1 CM, and vice versa. Fairy types have high troubles with this, especially because Granbull hates the Special set, Mawile can die to either sets fighting move, Mega Audino can pull off severe damage against Physical LO, but can struggle with CM unless it as well is CM or has say Toxic. As for Psychic and Poison checks. Most of the Poison types don't like taking Zen Headbutt if it's ran, which you have probably a 1 out of 3 or 4 shot of running into if people use the logical sets. Also, HP Psychic isn't bad for Special sets for the same reason. It won't be KOs, but most Poison types really won't like taking that move.

    But, I would like to reinforce the idea that as a partner, NU currently has Regi-(BEEPING)-steel in the tier. I mean, while people can say it's "set up fodder for the tier", "HELLO! It effectively walls and checks a lot of things that could be potential threats with it's bulk, with status support in T-Wave and Toxic and combining Seismic Toss and SR capability with a bulk and typing that's pretty much insane for NU." It's not meant to outdo anything that can set up, you are using Regi or believing it's role wrong for that, but it outlasts pretty much every Poison type, and can Toxic wall out many of the Psychic types, and for the bulkier things doing Seismic Toss damage gives it a strong set damage that wears thin opposing Offensive options. These two just partner so well, that it's pretty insane to think they are still allowed in NU together. Just get another partner that covers Fire types or Scarf Fighting types, and you are pretty much set in the tier. Regi covers a lot of Viri's weaknesses (Sets up Rocks for things like Scyther, flying types, Ice types, covers/cripples Tauros, Ambipom, and Cinccino for it, is pretty insane itself for almost every general NU Pokemon to deal with especially against status, and allows for Virizion to run Zen in most cases to deal with the Poison switch ins since it's giving it help with Flying types with Rocks, and the Poison part isn't a guaranteed to be dealt with.

    Let's face it, a huge amount of the current meta game in general features, have way to beat Virizion, have way to not get outwalled by Registeel, who has the better way to keep Registeel and Virizion alive, and insert your extra ways of dealing as much damage in a go as you can. It's pretty stagnant, and you only have such a small handful of Pokemon finding effective usage as long as Virizion, Registeel, and a very small group of others are used, as it just becomes very serious set up (CM wars) or something of that nature. As I've played with how I'm somewhat forced to build teams, if I don't find teams that just spam/have Registeel, Virizion, Sneasel, or Mega Audino, you might have an actual fun time until something else that's highly difficult has a chance to pop up, otherwise it's really the same old same old, with that makes it hard for me to want to play NU as stagnant as things really are.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
  4. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    It's a lot easier to switch into Virizion than you give credit for because it's highly incentivized to not run Life Orb (especially if it's the SD set which lacks Giga Drain for recovery) and because it generally needs to set up before it can break through anything. It's also a lot easier to force out with a scarfer or faster Pokemon than it might appear at first glance because of Close Combat defense drops which does heavily impact its ability to tank hits.

    What differentiates Virizion from a lot of the previous banned Pokemon in NU to me is that Virizion by itself is just not that threatening until it spends a turn to set up. That gives your opponent an opportunity to try and get a free switch to a faster Pokemon to force it out and gain momentum, and also loses a ton of value that you would normally get from being able to threaten both Physical and Special sets to get surprise KOs on defensive switch-ins. This is in stark contrast to basically every other banned Pokemon in NU, which was either just incredibly threatening from the start (most of them) or basically had no checks after setting up at all (Combusken, Kingdra, Venomoth). While as a general rule being vulnerable to revenge-killing isn't that relevant (especially regarding the former category), when it's relating to a sweeper that basically has to spend a turn setting up every time it switches in to make itself a threat, being easily forced out is actually incredibly relevant to how broken that Pokemon can be.

    If Sneasel and Virizion are tier-dominating threats and Registeel is the glue holding teams together I don't understand how Scarf Sawk and Primeape could possibly not be amazing, and Gurdurr must be the most underrated Pokemon in the tier.
     
  5. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    No one's saying it is hard/fully difficult to switch into Virizion. It is of course set dependent, but there are a fair amount of challenges. It might be an incentive, but the ease of damage output with LO on any set is still good.

    Also "faster", the ones I listed are the only ones who are faster with "kill/damage" potential from the get go. I left out like Electrode, Zebstrika, and I think Raichu. Raichu and Electrode's damage with just say HP Ice is pitiful, and Zebstrika can't kill with Overheat without damage being done, and if it's CM Virizion it can tank it and set up/heal if Synthesis. It at least forces it to use Focus Miss or CC because it luckily gets Sap Sipper.

    252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 213-252 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Choice Specs Zebstrika Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 246-290 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    That's lol Zeb vs a Virizion. Again not too many things that can outspeed will want to switch in for fear of it just spamming CC or something like that, or it could also be a free turn of set up with Sub. Scarf mons do fair better, but I don't think can fairly say that many things should even attempt a scarf due to the fact there are near impossible things to dent, that so many options don't get a fair shake at damaging the tier due to sheer damage outputs not being favorable or impossible to achieve without something really overpowering

    On the last thing, with Scarf Sawk/Primeape. Neither gets a good way to boost with average/decent speed, and are kind of forced into Choice items to be fairly decent as the tier is. Not to mention there are multiple Pokemon they can't even touch freely if they rely on a choice item that leaves them fair bait for many other pokemon in the tier. Where as a Pokemon like Virizion isn't locking itself, is going to be faster than the 95% of the tier, and doesn't have the curse of singular Fight typing where Grass in NU gives it a lot to work with very few Fire types running around (also they can't outspeed him without Scarf or use of Webs). I can't really call this a balanced tier where so little has a chance to thrive based on a small select group of Pokemon that are still around. It's different, but lol there's several Pokemon that just make it difficult to enjoy the tier as it is, and I can't say that being a good thing on "different". If I were to have a say, I'd have gone for Registeel first, but this is a Virizion discussion, and as it stands I do think Virizion is just a toxic presence for the tier.
     
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  6. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer Active Member

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    I'm a bit on the fence but the biggest beef I have with Virizion is its effect on teambuilding. Off the top of my head only Psyshock Musharna, Poison Jab Tangrowth, Gourgeist, and maybe RestTalk Spiritomb can claim to reliably switch into all its SD sets all match long ie can take on both Stone Edge and ZHB and don't get worn down easily -- maybe there are more, but the options are still very limited. Use anything else and you'd have to fit in another Pokemon to deal with ZHB Viriz or another to beat CM sets, or you risk running into a less common variant and having to rely on the revenge killer. It's easy to say that Virizion can be revenge killed but Virizion's blazing speed only limits you to a handful of non-scarfed mons that outrun it, and also pretty much forces you to run a scarf mon that actually does KO it if the rest of the team is relatively slow. It's true that if you have the right tools beating Virizion in a match is easy, but beating it in the teambuilder is a different story.

    Speaking of things that outrun Virizion, probably only one (Scarf Scyther) can actually claim to be able to switch into Virizion's STABs and force it out safely. Anything else would require you to sac another teammate first. I disagree that Virizion has damage output issues if it doesn't set up; with LO and good STABs you will still need to take care if you're hoping to catch a free switch while it sets up. With such good speed and decent STAB moves a lot of non-counters have to be careful switching in, and blindly switching in catch-all bulky mons don't work because Virizion can just as easily SD on the switch and force the bulky mon out, grabbing another kill in the process.

    So yes with adequate preparation Virizion is definitely easy to beat. But perhaps it's the preparation part that might push it over a little bit.
     
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  7. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Nicehat is right in that Virizion doesn't have the immediate power of some of the former suspects, like say Typhlosion. However, unlike Typh, Virizion has a lot of staying power. A resistance to Stealth rock, fantastic special bulk, and a very good defensive typing add up to a Pokemon that can (and does) last a considerable long time throughout a match. This is what differentiates Virizion from other mons like Venomoth, Typh, Noivern, etc. Virizion is obviously different from any of the past suspects (probably closest to Kingdra, but trades speed/bulk for lack of sets). However, I don't really see the point in comparing Virizion to things that ended up being banned in LU anyway.

    Virizion is more of a difficulty in teambuilding than it is in playing around in-game. Between the SD set(s) and the CM set, there are surprisingly few Pokemon that can reliably switch into Virizion, mostly Psyshock Psychics (the less bulky ones have to watch out for +2 LO Leaf Blade). Gurdurr and Tangrowth lose to +1 Focus Blast, Esca dies to +2 CC, Spiritomb struggles against CM (and SD if the offensive set), etc. You have to prepare very much for both sets which is also partly because it is very hard to use offensive pressure to keep Virizion out or on the defensive because of the high speed and very good bulk/typing.

    Virizion isn't without flaws, but it is very much a Pokemon that you /have/ to prepare for to be successful in NU. Unlike some of the other Pokemon that are the "prepare for this or die", Virizion doesn't have much trouble lasting to the end game, even if it switches into play. It's also not something that is very easy to revenge kill without using a dedicated Choice Scarf user (most of which can't really switch into Virizion), unlike say, band Sawk. It's also something that's very hard to completely cover with a single Pokemon, especially if you don't want to run Mushy or Mesprit on every team.

    The biggest reason I'm hesitant to call Virizion broken is because Scarf user + check is very common and on most teams. Other than stall (which I've really not seen in NU since the tier change), most teams are going to have (usually just) one pokemon faster than Virizion and likely at least one of the various set checks. Whether this is due to Virizion is questionable (I'd argue that Sawk is more of a cause of this), but its an undeniable part of NU. Whether this is "overcentralization" is also very questionable, not only because the word was ruined by people that didn't know what it meant, but also because there are a number of check + Scarf mon combinations, so its not necessarily a metagame warping force.

    So overall, while Virizion is definitely a notch above most of the rest of NU, and honestly belongs in LU. It doesn't really fit any broken criteria in NU, and I cannot say that it is a metagame ruining mon either.
     
  8. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Double post cuz fuck the rules


    The NU leaders have decided not to ban Virizion. See the posts above for the reasoning
     
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