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Suspect Discussion: Victini (not banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by NananaBatman, Jan 3, 2016.

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  1. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Credit goes to user gengar17 for this majestic fire rabbit.

    Discuss the possibility of Victini being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Victini's impact on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it is capable of using, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on wether Victini should be banned (or not) from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against Victini in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    Users that are unsure about suspect posting are encouraged to check this guide out.
     
    Funbot28, snaga, gengar17 and 2 others like this.
  2. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Victini is a tricky mon that is in UU since Gen 5, and still doing the same job it always did.
    Between Scarf/Band, Mixed, or special attacker LO, it has been a top tier forever.

    Though, it usually is Choice set because they're just hitting harder than Mixed, so this set has several counters, such as Salamence and Arcanine ( intimidate )
    The tricky part is the fact it can run Glaciate and thus negating Salamence. Rhyperior can check it if no Grass Knot, the same goes to Gastrodon, and Snorlax with thick fat can tank hit with ease.

    I personally didn't have troubles with Victini despite the fact it's expendable and despite the fact it hits like a truck. Once the set is known, it becomes easier to deal with it. Cresselia and Suicune can deal with non Band set as well.

    /Maybe/ some people use it in Trick Room teams which is not totally awfull in UU with some threats such as Hoopa so it can abuse V-Create easily. But TR ain't that played so I didn't have the opportunity to test it nor to see how is it.

    Lastly, with the rise of rain teams in UU with good Rain Dancer such as Uxie, Klefki, Mega Swampert, Victini has more issues at killing anything and can sometime let the opponent set up ( SD on kabutops is scary in UU ).

    Personally I don't feel like it's really broken but maybe I'm wrong. If it was BW2 it would've been a different story but in ORAS I can't think Victini deserves to be banned.
     
  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Victini does a whole lot for a team in UU, and is easily one of the easiest offensive Pokemon to splash on a team. It can wallbreak or generally pull a role being a surprise Mixed/non Choice set to punish switch ins with its wide move pool.

    CB sets apply a lot of pressure to standard teams, due to how difficult it is to have a switch in that won't get worn down, and with how you might face a let something die approach depending on what it's primed to kill or possibly just cripple. Somewhat ditto for Scarf since set Attacks are similar and it makes you easily question is it a Scarf vs Band in most standard cases, and not knowing if you actually have a way to kill it without testing some waters and feeling the sets out based what is built around it.

    Not to mention that the Mixed set throws many of it's checks for a loop with access to Energy Ball/Grass Knot, Glaciate, Wisp, and more choices. It kind of let's a player pick and choose what it wants to do. It kind of needs LO or E-Belt for these sets and can only punish/be used well enough as to if the opponent has something that can actually be punished by the choices made on the set. The downside to the set is that once it's revealed to not really be banded/scarf if possible (revealing E-Ball or Glaciate or another) it's easy-ish to deal with and it's not guaranteed KOs since it's not that fast, usually splits EVs into both offenses, and doesn't have the pure power of say Banded.

    I can see why people have trouble or complain about what it CAN do, but that's just because it's easy to splash, and most of the teams I see it beat are easily beaten through pure power or cleaning. Mixed can throw good teams off though, and I can see why the potential of that set would be a "want" to ban. I don't actually find it that difficult to deal with though for a variety of reasons.

    - SR weak, it's very limited if SR is up, and that means like a lot of UU games, that the focus is on Hazard control and pulling in and out of the battlefield, and trying to make an opponent slip up, and lose their setter and or hazard clearer.

    - Speed, 100 is pretty damn good, but not great enough to not get crippled by other Pokemon that are usable and faster. Also given that both Band and Scarf like to make use of Adamant, that kind of puts its various speeds at a certain level, especially since Adamant can only hits 299. There's a lot that's usable that can make use of it being force locked into a move that can punish an opponent.

    - Predictability. Band and Scarf sets are pretty easy to dissect based on a team's set up, which is what's easily spammed. Not a guarantee, but you can generally pick which of the other it is based on a team and what it needs more of. It is definitely harder to guess a Mix-Tini and what set it might be running, and requires testing the waters possibly. Special Tini is somewhat tough to find, but if a team lacks a clear cut offensive special mon, you can at least infer it.

    - Lack of ability to get in. Victini doesn't like taking hits, has a very low ability to get in, with a higher rate of getting forced out which ties in with SR ability and a low survival rate. It can generally come in on things like Forretress and Florges, it kind of risks coming in purely against anything that isn't predictable like support healing, spin, Protects, ya know.

    Available checks and counters:

    Salamence - Intimidate, fears Bolt Strike para's coming into play, SUPER fear of Glaciate when it's used. Otherwise it generally doesn't give a (BEEP) about what Victini's doing, even being Rock weak itself, unless it's an offensive one, which you shouldn't switch in anyway.

    Arcanine - Intimidate, healing, ability to use Rocky Helmet, Victini generally can't do too much to it outside LO Special Psychic move on Mixed/Special sets. Doesn't do much back, but is seriously useful in UU.

    Rotom-H - See above, but lacks Intimidate + it's only way of healing is Pain Split really.

    Swampert/Suicune - Takes Fire attacks, Swampert is immune to Bolt, neither care about it's ability to U-Turn, only care about Zen when hax happens, doesn't like the occasional Trick set, and Swampert will fear the E-Ball/GK sets. General Victini has a 50/50 predict against Suicune coming in or not with choosing the right move, but special T-Bolt can score a 2hko at least, so that's a plus to the special Tini set.

    Snorlax - Bulky enough to wall all the standard sets, can get 2hko'd by Banded V-Create, unless a slightly more Physical bulky spread is given, but it tanks the other ones and can Pursuit trap, or set up curses meaning it doesn't give a (BEEP) about V-Creates in advance.

    Hippo - Can't switch to Banded V-Create like Lax, but anything else it doesn't mind. Given some good EV spreads, it won't die to special hits from full HP unless purely physical allowing GK to KO, so softer ability to kill Tini.

    Chandelure/Pre Mega Houndoom - Existing forces it to be wary of V-Create. Doom doesn't give a care to Zen or Psychic either. U-Turn is a different story, and Bolt Strike isn't good for either, but Tini can't hit everything all at once especially things that can outspeed it.

    Krookodile - Intimidate, Bulky spreads, Pursuit scaring, also Knock Offs supports a team. Can be scared by Special Tini.

    Gligar - After V-Create, Banded Victini should be slower than Gligar, so Roost can help stall the negatives V-Create give, or it can just EQ for a lot of damage.

    QUAG - Wait Quag is still UU right? Also, it finds some random use in UU too doesn't it? I can't exactly remember because I never see it but I know it's an option for being a forgotten about Mon.

    Mega Ampharos - Bulky FABULOUS Dragon. Nuff said.

    If non Scarf - Literally anything faster than it including, but not limited to Aero, Mega Aero, Mega Bee, Crobat, Mega Absol, Mienshao, Hydreigon, Alakazam, Azelf, Staraptor (can be a Tie though), SHARPEDO. Not to mention things that are faster that can cripple with T-Wave like Cobalion, or Sashed Galvantula Thunder if that's held for a match or lead with Sticky Webs.

    1 on 1 with priority users forces it out as well in most cases. Sucker from Honch, Toxicroak, and others who can run the move hamper it. Gatr is a scary situation, especially Jet Gatr.

    Imo, a lot of pressure can be applied to Tini and people who run it. It's obviously a top mon for a reason, but I don't think it limits choices or makes matches impossible or unwinnable just by existing in the tier. A lot of the defensive Pokemon you can use, exist to check similar Pokemon for various reasons, so it's dumb not to use some of the Pokemon listed above in the role. It can be straining to figure out the set at times, but I don't think access to Mixed attacking puts any more limits out there when it lacks raw Power to kill many threats Banded would, or Scarf would like to clean, also lacks the speed, since Tini in most cases will be run with a power running nature anyway. The only need on speed is to figure if it's Scarf or not. Which can't kill a lot of things list above for the POWER reason.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
    Dominique-XLR likes this.
  4. La.Melle2402

    La.Melle2402 I'm the bone of my sword

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    Victini is very tricky Pokemon, It has many possible sets. It can run every choice item, expert belt, life orb or even leftovers with a sub set. But after you found out its set it, Victini isnt that dangerous anymore. Enough Pokemion can easy switch in. If its for example a Scarfed one, you can switch in Snorlax, Mandibuzz, Suicune, Gastrodon etc. without any problems. Some of them can even switch into a banded V-Create. It has a lot of threats, like Krookodile which can pursuit trap it, Salamence, Chandelure, Swampert, Suicune.
    Ofc Victini can sweep teams if they arent prepared, but its not hard to have at least one switch in. I dont think Victini needs to move up, so NO BAN.
     
  5. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Good thing people wanted a suspect on this, huh

    While powerful, Victini is manageable and has a fair amount of checks//switch ins. It's something teams need to prepare for, but it doesn't put an absurd amount of pressure on teambuilding.

    Victini will not be banned from ORAS UU.
     
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