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[Monotype] Aegislash Re-Suspect Test [Steel]- Not banned

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by gengar17, Jan 12, 2016.

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  1. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    [​IMG]

    Since there was some discussion during the last suspect of Aegislash being too good on Steel but not on Ghost. As we now have complex bans, here it goes:
    Discuss the effects of Aegislash on the Monotype metagame and the possibility of banning it from the Steel type. Post intelligently based off of experience in the metagame. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions. i.e. if you play Monotype at all, then post.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Aegislash as well as its impact and power when on Steel Monotype teams. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached or a clear majority is established, then the result will likely be implemented in the metagame, otherwise it will go to a vote. Happy suspecting.

    Link to the previous suspect: http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/aegislash-suspect.31475/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2016
    Edna likes this.
  2. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ok so Aegislash is very powerful on Steel atm due to the amazing offensive and defensive utility it brings to the type. The Ghost immunity is actually a very big deal when dealing against Fighting teams, due to them always fearing when to use a Fighting type move, always leaving your opponent guessing what to do and them making the wrong mistake by going for Knock Off when you didn't bring Aegi in. That's an issue with all immunity cores in mono, but with Aegi on Steel it takes it to the next level. I know Doublade exists so even if we ban Aegislash, we still can use that instead, but Aegislash offers much more offensive utility thanks to it's amazing 150 offenses and defenses, and can run a mutitutde of sets (SD, Mixed LO Attacker, Toxic Stall, etc..) . The ability to break down many walls, leaving the room for SD Scizor and Excadrill is really important, and is to me what pushes Aegislash over the edge on Steel. It gives an already amazing type a wide array of options, being able to break down many defensive cores (especially vs Fairy, Rock, Psychic and Ghost) and greatly influences some of the type matchups in many given situations (vs Fighting). While Aegislash is necessary on Ghost due to the limited options that typing has, but it pushes Steel to far, giving it too many options vs the majority of the matchups. Hence why I believe Aegislash should be banned on Steel.

    Wanted to write more, but am too tired right now, just wanted to spark some discussion.
     
  3. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    Everything that Funbot said

    It's the effective 60/150/150/150/150/60 stat line (Thats 720 btw, which is Arceus level) and access to the ever annoying King's Shield that bother me. It really doesn't effect my team's matches vs steel (my ice loses anyway), but a sans-Aegi meta would mean I didn't have to play around keeping Weavile alive the entire game to even have a chance. Aegislash should be banned on Steel
     
  4. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    I don't know where these stats comes from but Aegi is 520 BS. Being forced to make it more defensive doesn't help either with King's shield so you're making look like it's some sort of legendary mon when it clearly isn't.

    Aegislash relies way too much on KS which in my opinion makes it very predictable. The best set it can run at the moment is sub toxic/sub 2 attacks because it makes it less vulnerable to 50/50 with KS or no KS. Aegislash is a pokemon that been in the meta since long time, and I personally never felt it was a problem in the tier. Every type can easily deal with it ( Mandibuzz/Umbreon/Hippowdwon spe def/Spe def Gliscor/Mega Venusaur/Spe def Char X( give it a try it's a nice mon)/Whatever mon resisting ghost that has in the team a cleric or a way of negating toxic.

    Aegislash is slow, which means against fast teams it will have hard time taking down more than one mon, that is, if it can take down one already. Having a ghost stab mandatory in his moveset makes it, in my opinion, quite easy to predict, and not an issue at all.

    I still have the same feeling than last time ( if it didn't get banned anw it was because of me being persistent about it not being broken in Monoghost and okish to deal with in Monosteel). Nothing has changed since then, I still find it to be ok in the metagame.

    If some of you realized that Aegi got temporary banned in Monosteel, just to make a test about it centralizing the metagame/being the broken element of Monotype, maybe you would share your experiences with the new ladder.

    I personally feel it should remain in the Monotype metagame. Discuss!
     
  5. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Ghost immunity is a big deal. That doesn't make it broken in and of itself. Not devolving the matchup into literally just spamming your STAB is actually a good thing; Pokemon is a game of learning information and extrapolating your opponent's actions, which is why we ban 'autopilot' type strategies whenever possible such as OHKO, evasion, Baton Pass, etc. Obviously if the Pokemon breaks a number of matchups then it should be removed, but I don't believe that it is broken.

    Aegislash is clearly better than Doublade with the ability to use King's Shield combined with decent special stats.

    Aegislash's best sets are SubToxic and various mixed sets sans Life Orb. When mentioning Aegislash's defenses, users neglect to point out that Aegislash cannot fully invest itself in defense lest it become a sitting duck, and those 150/150 stats are paired with a meager 60 HP stat with no recovery. Life Orb further exacerbates Aegislash's issue with balancing offense and defense by whittling away at its bulk. Swords Dance is still a shit set by the way since Shadow Ball is as powerful without having to set up and Shadow Sneak leaves you incredibly vulnerable, all the while requiring quite a bit of support. On paper getting extra power and sweeping potential is fine and all, but in practice I have found that they always under perform whether used by myself or others. Essentially you listed a bunch of bad sets to beef up Aegislash's resume to make it seem as though it is a jack-of-all-trades, which it is not (this would be like me bringing up specs Dragonite because it occasionally works). SubToxic and Mixed leftovers sets are the only sets which should be considered as they're the only ones with sufficient offensive and defensive capabilities to be a persistent threat.

    Aegislash (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Stance Change
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 SAtk / 32 SDef
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Toxic
    - Substitute
    - King's Shield
    This is the spread I use for subtoxic to have subs that aren't broken by Slowbro/Slowking. There are probably more efficient spreads. The mixed set can be pretty similar with some combination of Substitute, Iron Head, or Sacred Sword.

    Magnezone/Magneton are far better support for removing physical walls blocking Excadrill and Scizor compared to Aegislash. Breaking walls isn't a reason to ban something, just as nullifying offense isn't a reason to ban something either. It's a function the Pokemon performs. I haven't seen a viable explanation as to why it's supposedly too good at breaking walls. Fairy and Rock already have far more trouble with other members of Steel while having counterplay in the forms of Tyranitar, Klefki, Rhyperior, and so on. But again it's a moot point since they both still get destroyed by other common Steel types. Ghost has trouble with Aegislash, but Aegislash doesn't have trouble with Ghost? Most of Ghost outspeeds and can hit Aegislash pretty hard or Will-o-Wisp it on a King's Shield. Not any switch ins, but when is Aegislash even switching itself in for free? Aegislash 'influences' the Fighting matchup (whatever that means), but that doesn't mean it's broken. Scizor 'influences' the Bug v. Rock matchup but we're not banning it! The only time Fighting is at a disadvantage is if it just scarfs 6 members and relies on abusing its STAB way too often.

    Comparing Aegislash to Arceus is a joke. If it was that good it'd be used at least as much as Arceus in Ubers. For it to have a 720 BST it'd need to King's Shield after every single attack, which as carl pointed out is a liability for status users, set up sweepers, and switch ins. I'm not sure what to say about King's Shield bothering you; Thunder Wave bothers me a lot too.

    Ice has many other forms of counterplay (although it's still a losing matchup) in the form of Mixed Abomasnow and Mamoswine, both of which can apply tremendous pressure to Steel teams (LO Icicle Crash beats Skarm often, especially in Hail). It also risks status from the likes of Rotom-F. All that on top Weavile as you mentioned before. The matchup is nearly hopeless, but Aegislash is by far the least factor when compared to Heatran, Scizor, Lucario and the like; it's a moot point to bring it up.



    I really haven't seen a well constructed argument as to why it is broken. Just vague claims of "it has a role that it's good at".

    A slight jab a carl's argument: I wouldn't say every type can easily deal with it, but most types have a variety of reliable counterplay to it as long as you don't try to autopilot against it. Most of those who don't have checks or counters already lose to Steel as a whole anyway.

    If anyone really wants a rambly breakdown of what each type has/doesn't have for Aegislash let me know, but I don't think it'd be incredibly productive with what's been stated above.

    edit: I do realize that my position is quite different than in the other thread. After playing with Aegislash in the current metagame I've found that it greatly suffers from not having the fast, offensive presence of Mega Metagross backing it up. Overall the situation of the metagame has changed and adapted making Aegislash much more manageable. As is Steel is just cutting it with enough bulk to manage itself. Aegislash is the glue that makes Monosteel viable, not broken.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
  6. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Normally we'd take this to a vote, but since there aren't really any fleshed out pro-ban arguments after a month and neither me, carl, nor gengar are pro-ban, Aegislash will not be banned from MonoSteel.

    Thank you for participating in this suspect.
     
    Funbot28 and Edna like this.
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