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Suspect Discussion: Sneasel [Banned]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Draciel, Jan 15, 2016.

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  1. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Discuss the possibility of Sneasel being banned from the ORAS NU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Sneasel's effect on the metagame; talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think it should be banned, but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted.

    If you're unsure about posting check out this guide and post anyway.
     
  2. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    first

    So what makes sneasel so good? It only has 95 atk, and has absolutely no bulk, it only has 5-6 good moves to use. The combination of an amazing speed tier (115 outspeeds almost all of the non-scarf relevant mons in NU) and two very, very good STABs. Ice and Dark are both fantastic offensive types, and with Low Kick adds up to near perfect coverage. Therefore Sneasel is a pretty hard pokemon to switch into; this is made worse since the most spammable move sneasel has is Knock Off, which has the side-effect of weakening most of the potential switches by removing leftovers or eviolites
    Sneasel doesn't completely lack switches. 95 Atk only takes you so far, and with the tiny bulk, weakness to SR, and affinity to Life Orb, Sneasel doesn't have a lot of room to maneuver around the checks / counters it does have. Sneasel also has the "curse" of having a lot of 2HKO's and not that many OHKOs, which both means that it needs good prediction, and that it has a lot trouble sweeping without a very weakened team.

    My biggest issue with sneasel is that the vast majority of the things that would like to switch into it do not fit on offensive teams. Gurdurr is the only particularly offensive pokemon that takes more than 2 of Sneasel's attacks (tho Knocking off the eviolite is kinda bad). Non-physically defensive bulky Pokemon are pretty much 2HKO'd without exception. This means that Sneasel is very hard to prepare for without slowing down a team with some wall with next to no offensive pressure capacity. The second issue with Sneasel is that it pretty much cripples all of its checks / counters. Most of NU's physical walls (that can handle Sneasel) don't have reliable recovery, so by losing their Leftovers or Eviolite, Sneasel provides a great deal of support to accompanying physical sweepers. In a similar vein, Sneasel can use Pursuit to great effect, especially with things like Sawk, which have next to no checks that aren't destroyed by Pursuit. So Sneasel is not only a pretty fearsome cleaner late-game, but is also very capable of supporting a team through removing items and Pursuiting Fighting-type checks.

    Sneasel can also use Swords Dance, but I've literally never been given the opportunity to use SD where not using Knock Off would have better. Part of this is just how good Knock Off is as a move. It's incredibly powerful, an incredibly good Offensive typing, and can hamper anything that tries to take it. I could go on a soapbox about how broken Knock Off is, but I'll save it.

    So, do I think Sneasel is broken? Not in the conventional sense; it has a decent bit of checks and counters. Its incredible fraility and weakness to SR compound the horrific defensive typing. If you can keep SR off the field, it's very good at hit and run, but it has a lot of trouble actually facing anything 1v1 without considerable support. What does kind of push sneasel over the edge is its ability to offensively support the team with Knock Off and Pursuit in a metagame that is incredibly receptive to these two services and the difficulty in finding checks and counters that can really fit onto an offensive team.


    Bunch of semi-relevant calcs
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 192-229 (52.7 - 62.9%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 160-188 (46.5 - 54.6%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 183-216 (45.6 - 53.8%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 114-136 (37.5 - 44.7%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Spiritomb: 136-161 (46.2 - 54.7%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 110-133 (29.4 - 35.5%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gurdurr: 165-196 (44.1 - 52.4%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 205-243 (47.7 - 56.6%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 179-213 (44.4 - 52.8%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 149-177 (40.9 - 48.6%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Gastrodon: 195-230 (45.7 - 53.9%)
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 87-103 (22.6 - 26.8%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 62-74 (16.1 - 19.2%)
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Qwilfish: 101-121 (30.2 - 36.2%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 107-126 (32.1 - 37.8%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 166-198 (40 - 47.8%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 135-161 (37 - 44.2%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 177-211 (73.4 - 87.5%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Miltank: 130-153 (32.9 - 38.8%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 161-190 (40.9 - 48.3%)
    [\spoiler]
     
  3. Kite

    Kite hi

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    Hello folks, this is my first time posting in a suspect discussion so please forgive any noobish things I say. Ok firstly I feel that, although Sneasel is a formidable Pokemon offensivly, its poor defensive typing and frailty--just like user Xdevo points out :)-- make it very hard to switch in during a battle so it often relies on a slow u-turn/volt switch to see some action. Also, it is easily picked off by many common priority moves even at good health. Sneasel also has trouble running all the move sets it would like, personally, I use the swords dance/knock off/icicle crash/ice shard set, with LO but I'm thinking of changing out SD for low kick as the SD variant is completely walled by Hariyama. Other counters for Sneasel include emboar,scrafty and bulky water types. Sneasel can also easily get worn down by all forms of entry hazards and chip damage (rocky helmet). lastly, Sneasel often faints from LO recoil so many strong opponents can take advantage of the limited number hits it can dish out. Overall, I think that a healthy Sneasel can serve as a fast, hard hitting revenge killer/pursuit trapper that can punish unprepared teams but it requires good team support and synergy in order to be effective in the NU tier.
     
    Purpleseamonkey likes this.
  4. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Sneasel is a very good pokemon in the current metagame, I can see why it's being suspected since i've played it a lot and I've seen how many teams fails to counter it.

    First of all, 95 atk is very good ( it's already higher than Virizon) and it has access to SD, Pursuit, X-Scissor, Low Kick,Icicle Crash, Ice shard and the broken move of low tiers: Knock off. Its speed tier is one of the best in NU ( being outclassed by stuff like Accelgor or Ninjask is quite irrelevant since they're not the biggest threats of the Current NU). It packs some counters/checks, all depends on how Icicle crash is in your favor, like example Garbodor, who commonly runs Drain Punch can take a hit on the switch and retaliate with Drain Punch, so does Gurdurr and Regirock who can use Bulk up/Thunder wave and OHKO with Drain punch as well.

    However, Sneasel is more a hit and run pokemon and/or a Late Game Sweeper, which means these mons would most likely be already crippled a lot before accomplishing anything. Having that amazing speed and good Attack makes it way too dangerous in the tier at the moment in my opinion. Knock off being the dumb spammable move it is, it can easily with most Ghost and pokemon that don't resist Knock off as it does at least 70% to half the tier.

    Checks like Spiritomb are ok but then it all ends to Icicle Crash flinches/misses.

    In my opinion Sneasel should be banned in NU as it seems way too strong for some team archetype and I feel like if you lack some overplayed mon, you'll lose everytime something.
     
    Purpleseamonkey and Joeypals!! like this.
  5. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ya I have always felt that Sneasel is a huge nuisance to teambuild around, due to it's amazing 115 Speed and a great Ice/Dark offensive typing. It can really just spam Knock Off without any real repercussions, weakening down walls by removing their Leftovers or Eviolite and usually be able to KO them with Icicle Crash, or weaken them enough so that other team members can sweep. Yes 95 Attack isn't the best, but when equipped with a Life Orb or a Choice Band, it easily becomes one of the heaviest hitters in the format, and only Scarf mons to outspeed it. I find it especially annoying when it is paired with a fighting type like Sawk and Virizion, as it can easily Pursuit trap Psychic type mons like Musharna and Xatu, who rely on their Colbur Berry to deal with Fighting threats, leaving an opening on the opponents team to be ripped to shreds. It rips through offense and balance like it's nobodies business, and I haven't even mentioned the Swords Dance set yet (which is also extremely terrifying). Sneasel should be banned, so we can all have an easier time teambuilding. Wanted to say more, but it has been already said before me.
     
  6. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Sneasel has always been a top tier threat in NU, and I've posted multiple times regarding that in the NU discussion thread. High attacking stat coupled with amazing 115 base speed and access to SD makes it extremely threatening, but what really pushes it over the edge for me is it's two fantastic STABs: Knock off/Icicle Crash. Knock off in particular is extremely spammable and backed up with a solid attack stat (possibly SD) can do some serious damage to offensive/defensive teams alike. What makes STAB knock off even more deadly in NU is that we see quite a few notable eviolite users in the tier, and Knock off cripples them badly. Dark/Ice STAB coupled with Low kick gives Sneasel perfect coverage as well, allowing it to potentially OHKO spdef Registeel at +2 with LO. Choice banded sets use more of a hit-and-run strategy, and it's main job is to get rid of the bulky Psychic-types in the tier by spamming Knock off or trapping them with Pursuit, allowing the powerful fighting types in the tier (sawk for eg.) to sweep effortlessly late game. Ice shard is also an effective priority move, useful in picking off weakened foes late game. So overall Sneasel possesses all the offensive tools necessary to dominate NU at the moment.

    Sneasel does have it's cons, namely it's SR weakness and awful bulk without Eviolite makes it hard for it to switch in, even on neutral attacks. Bulky fighting types like Hariyama, Gurdurr and Physically defensive Registeel with Twave can spell doom for Sneasel, and as a result it has troubles sweeping teams effectively until all it's checks are fairly weakened late-game. That's why it is usually paired up with a powerful Fighting type wallbreaker (Sawk/Virizion) and they complement each other extremely well, almost too well. Scarf fighting type revenge killers like Sawk/Primeape are problematic for Sneasel too, but with right team support it will always do well, and the fact that it's so easily spammable on teams makes it too centralizing for the tier. I could go on and on about ow it's pros outweighs it's cons, but the posters above me have already done that reasonably well.

    Considering all these points, Sneasel will be banned from the ORAS NU tier from now on. Thanks everyone for participating in the suspect!
     
    Purpleseamonkey, Xdevo and Funbot28 like this.
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