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Suspect Discussion - Mega Aggron (Not Currently Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Aurist, Jan 17, 2016.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    [​IMG]
    Discuss the possibility of banning Aggronite from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Mega Aggron as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.
     
    Edna likes this.
  2. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Mega Aggron is just a fantastic mon in the tier, and a Pokemon I would qualify broken.

    The curse set is just insane and has very few counters in the tier. It goes with +spe def rest talk Iron head/Heavy Slam, I prefer Iron head because it has more pp and can help vs more fat mons such as Rhyperior faster. The only way of beating this is to keep alive some specs fire mon ( which doesn't run everywhere in LU). Couple to that Filter, Mega Aggron is just one of the bulkiest mon of the tier alongside Mega Steelix and it is most of the time a win condition that can totally nullify the opponent team if well played. Been playing it for a long moment ( since its drop in LU) I've realized that this pokemon is easily the easiest and cheapest to use on the tier.

    The Support set with Twave/Rocks ain't bad however it is outclassed by mons such as Metagross or Celebi since they don't take the mega slot, but that's just me. However, this set can still do some nice damage, and remove physical threats from the opponent team, with cleric support ( Aromatisse)
    The main problem with Mega Aggron is the time it takes to take it down, which is insane for LU at the moment.

    In my opinion, I believe Mega Aggron should be banned
     
  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    So, for anyone who hasn't been paying attention to me playing for the last month and a half or battled me, I've been using Mega Aggron a lot, specifically the curse set. While it's immediate bulk is impressive, and the curse set if you get it going is nigh impossible to stop for most physical attackers, there's a lot of if and or with the set once the initial high is over on it being a massive steel destroyer.

    There's not really an opportunity cost for being a Mega because it's equal as a threat to Mega Aboma and Camel, and better in regards to Steelix, Banette, and Audino. So that's a plus.

    However what is an opportunity cost on say the curse set is moveslots (4MSS) and cost of keeping an offense. If you run Curse and Rest Talk with 1 attack, you have to play odds on getting a boost or attacking. If you don't have say EQ then some special threats that resist Iron Head/Heavy Slam can be a pain. Without Sleep Talk then it's an open target for special attackers to just wail into it with heavy attacks. Add in the fact that outside rest it does not have any reliable recovery, and that means Spikes as a hazard can build up against it. Really needs/wants a partner that can avoid those and remove them, and we don't have too many great ones at doing that with proper synergy. Flygon does ok as does Gligar, but they are all at risk to the good Special Attackers in the tier. Not to mention that the base form has almost not switch in potential except for Poison, Fairy, Ice, Psychic, Bug, Rock, and Normal attacks. But, out of those Psychic type moves usually have coverage that can deal with steels, same for Rocks learning ground moves. Some of the Poison types that are heavily used have moves that hit, Normal types are dependent on what normal type these are. Bug type is rare, as is fairy. Low chances to switch in at all.

    As well even with Max HP/Sp.Def investment and a Careful nature, that doesn't necessarily save Mega Aggron from doing a Tank Curse set job against many of our premier Special Attackers, you don't even need them to be fire types.

    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 240-283 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 244-288 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Meloetta Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 318-374 (92.4 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Mega Aggron: 142-169 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Mega Aggron: 142-169 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 195-231 (56.6 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 148-175 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

    Just a small list of Pokemon that can give M-Aggron a good scare, because it is impossible to keep it at a strong and healthy HP level unless you've set up against support level Pokemon or they only have physical attackers remaining. Not to mention I didn't list other Pokemon like:
    -Delphox
    -Moltres
    -Mega Camerupt
    -(sigh) Typhlosion
    -Magmortar
    -Houndoom
    -Eelektross
    -Taunt Jellicent (is totally amazing too)
    -Celebi (but technical and probably broken offensive mon should not be used as an excuse here)

    As well as other underrated gems like: Banded Sawk (who with Mold Breaker and CB can actually win or severely dent Mega Aggron at 0 or +1 Curse). Other things also include CM Slowking, SD Rhyperior (can be pretty scary), CM Virizion.

    Any others I can think up would more or less be speculation and theory, but so far all the above have been huge pains unless teammates can compensate, and there's only a limited group of throwing fully with M-Aggron that can do that. Not too much of an additional list of more or less theorying but it would include and I probably should test on Clawitzer, Samurott (both dent it for huge damage, and are threats to multiple Pokemon in the tier), Qwilfish (if lacking EQ, can Taunt and Scald Burn as well as set up spikes or D-Bond with it), various Chesnaught sets (I won't lie, I can never find a reason to use this thing even when I want to), Poliwrath can phaze for a team if needed (or go the MEEPS SPECS FOCUS BLAST ROUTE)/Weezing (Taunt + Wisps + Pain Split) if you use these as Physical absorbers. Actually I ran into a team that used Weezing with Wisp and Split, but didn't have the Taunt which let me still win against it because of Sleep Talk and Iron Head, but also paired with a Ludicolo as a subseed user and that just was pretty difficult for Aggron to overcome. Team did get a bit haxed there.

    So yeah overall experience so far, it's a really amazing Pokemon, and it can be a certified win condition against Bulky teams without a way to prevent set ups, but unless it gets to set up on Mons that literally can't do a thing to it which apparently are filled everywhere with multiple of them (Alomomola, Aromatisse, some of the weaker physical mons or ones that use moves that M Aggron resists) you get the idea, it does not have an easy time especially as it has to trade off a move to be successful depending on the match ups. I'm kind of borderline at this point, because while it can be a win condition, there's so many things that can just outright threaten it, be set up before hand, and destroy momentum pre-mega.

    The only other set it should run is basically the support set with SR, T-Wave, EQ, filler steel move or other (metal burst probably). Again Taunt is very underrated to use, and highly useful. If it isn't boosting, then there are things that threaten it from both sides with high powered moves. This set honestly adds extra checks to it as well including Rotom-C, Rotom, Scrafty, Pangoro, and some more choice but gimmicky set mons or things that are used in situational bits that aren't common place, but theoretically can work as well in practice. I can't say much on the added "checks" because I haven't encountered the support based M Aggron that much, and generally I like Taunt Jellicent too much to really try out the various other Taunt users like Noivern, Drapion, or Qwilfish.
     
    Funbot28 likes this.
  4. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    It's fat

    The issue for me is that Aggy's renders physical sweepers useless until it's defeated. I can't set up my Cloyster or Sharpedo until I'm confident that a +2 Cloyster can actually OHKO the enemy team, and Aggron is a 5 hit at best. Cloy can kinda get around it with H-Pump (clean 2HKO), but you need to already have Smash up when Aggy switches in and many other phys sweepers can't and are being forced out of the meta as such. I think.

    +2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Mega Aggron: 65-80 (18.8 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO
    +2 4 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Mega Aggron: 217-256 (63 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Mega Aggron: 84-100 (24.4 - 29%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
    0- SpA Mega Sharpedo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Mega Aggron: 121-144 (35.1 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    So due to 1 pokemon completely shutting down a large variety of pokemon, I think M-Aggron should be BANNED from UU.
     
  5. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    But this is LU man
     
  6. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I personally don't feel Mega Aggron to be such a huge deal in LU atm. Yes Curse RestTalk is annoying, but it gets walled pretty hard by bulky waters like Alomomola and Jellicent, and gets pressured really hard by fire types like Moltres and Delphox. It relying on Rest for recovery can often leave it susceptible to offensive pokemon that can pressure it pretty hard, and I feel it's really not that threatening before like 3 boosts. I believe the meta isn't really that kind to it tbqh, there are many common strong special attackers that threaten to KO it like Nidoqueen, Meloetta, Slowking and Sigilyph. It does wall some physical attackers quite well, most notable Tyrantrum and Metagross, but not to a point where it invalidates them like Porygon 2 did to some mons when it was allowed. I feel the bulky SR set to be it's best set imo, and it does have some very good qualities that can potentially push it over the edge, but the metagame does not allow it to use them to their fullest capabilities. I believe Mega Aggron should remain unbanned.
     
  7. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    So in this post I'm gonna focus on the curse set because that's basically the reason it's suspected and the tanky SR set is not only nowhere near broken but might as well not be in the tier because running Aggron without curse set right now is giving up one of the easiest win conditions this tier has ever seen outside of Cresselia.

    That's not to say Aggron lacks ways to check it, but I feel like most of the things listed in this thread outside of Jellicent are acting like Aggron has to face teams full of mons that can 2-shot it rather than the reality that there's gonna be basically 1 of these mons per team. Aggron does have the somewhat tough job of being the steel check to several mons in the tier while trying to set up for a late game curse win but its bulk allows it to do this against a solid 85% of the tier while admittedly having trouble with a handful of common mons threatening it (PS Sigilyph isn't a check). The reality is with Aggron that it's not going to be staying in on these various offensive pokemon like Nidoqueen, Delphox, Heliolisk etc that themselves have to invest a lot into getting into play and lasting throughout play, Aggron has an incredibly easy time playing it safe to outlast these low-durability mons in more balanced/bulky offensive teams which is 2 play styles altogether that it is pretty much invalidating single handedly (not even gonna bother mentioning stall cos it's been more or less eradicated from the tier lol). Against high offensive pressure teams it does not usually have the space to set up and will look to just get some decent damage off, and I think these styles of teams have become a lot more common purely because of the introduction of Mega Aggron rendering other styles much less effective.

    t;ldr I believe that MAggron is unhealthy for the tier. LU is having to massively compensate for MAggron's presence by resting on heavy offense/wallbreaker teams much more than it ever did, MAggron's presence screws with all other play styles through having an insanely easy time setting up on them, even ones with decent MAggron checks in. Its effect on the tier is to render all but 1 playstyle naturally inferior in LU, leading the meta to become more and more hyper offensive to compensate for its sheer power/bulk, and it should leave.
     
  8. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    personally i feel that Aggronite (keep aggron tho n_n ) should be banned from LU because it's simply overwhelming late game, yes, it has checks and counters, however most of them have a thing in common, they are weak to the same things (see fire types and ground types, fighting types are kinda iffy but the only ones that can beat aggron are 2hkoed by iron head), and most fat waters are simply set up fodder and all they can do is probably drain the iron head pp.
    but yeah as i was saying, u can easily have 1 or 2 mons to cover all of the mons that dont lose to curse aggron (for example, u can cover delphox, houndoom, emboar, nidoqueen, and heck, even virizion, with a life orb duggy). curse m-aggron is just really splashable as a late game wincon that only needs its checks to be weakened be it with sr or simply the lack of recovery that they have, then it can just finish the game with a few curses. Filter coupled with its pretty impressive bulk make it a bit too fat for the tier imo
    (banded aggron is more fun anyway)
     
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  9. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Haven't playtested enough, but I would like for people to keep these mons in mind when discussing Mega Aggron now...
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Mono Heavy Slam gets hard stopped by these three new arrivals, will comment later when playing a bit more with them.
     
  10. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    So we are 3 weeks into the new tier cycle, we gave Mega-Aggron more time to see how things worked out now that Celebi was gone, several things left LU, and we have had new drops. The consensus that we reached is that we are going to allow Mega-Aggron to continue to remain in LU for the time being and focus on other Pokemon that we may feel are more detrimental to the metagame than Mega-Aggron currently is.

    Basically what it boiled down to was what impact we discussed over the last cycle and what has gone on for the last 3 weeks. One thing we agreed on is that Mega Aggron is a versatile tank with it's slight variations between sets, and ability to absorb hits at an efficient rate like other tanks in the tier do. However lack of recovery and taking damage from SR and Spikes and trying to be a pivot for a team only goes so far before it's in easy KO range for super strong attacks. Last cycle Celebi dropped with Aggron, and Celebi essentially forced people to change a lot up in terms of how they built teams and played, so Mega Aggron was a beneficiary to the forced change in a way that you needed quick and powerful Pokemon to effectively work around Celebi, that those exact types actually would make Mega Aggron more easy to use, since they were the types that more or less Mega Aggron actually liked absorbing hits for.

    In addition while the Curse set is actually pretty ridiculous, it's not without faults. It essentially suffers from the same syndrome that Malamar and Braviary do. If it gets a boost, it can start attacking and removing some immediate threats that might switch in to stop it from going further, limiting switch ins, but it's not bulky enough or with good recovery that it doesn't have a trade off (having to use sleep talk to not lose momentum, losing out on a coverage move for it like EQ to beat fire types, trade off of continuing to boost or make possible predictions on incoming threats that would be immediately hurtful to it). It's the kind of Pokemon set that you have to have a wallbreaker type for if it starts boosting, it's never been different at that. It also can't set up much against many of the most commonly used Pokemon, as it ends up trading damage and just trying to remove threats as a tank or crippling in some factor. It takes something really passive (or being an ice, poison, fairy, or dragon type locked into moves or without decent coverage moves or ability to switch out) to just let it set up without doing anything back. Most decent Pokemon are capable of doing between 20-40% damage on it unless you let it set up multiple boosts. Thankfully there's actually a very small pool of those that will/can let that happen. Bulky waters would be on the list for free set up, but only Alomomola is the guaranteed set up bait for something like this, as others have good offensive sets or some of the very rare useful phazing.

    As well we got the 3 new drops in Magneton who can kill fairly easily with Magnet Pull if you need to trap it (as it does have magnet rise) and Specs can 2HKO even the bulky max hp/sp.def set, so it's a strong asset. Mandibuzz can taunt/roost against it and have use rocky helmet to make damage itself, and Rotom-H forces Mega Aggron out and can nuke it easily. Losing Rotom-C and Heliolisk means we lost 2 options for pulling the electrics can easily dent it argument, but they have been replaced, and the other Pokemon (Gligar, Metagross, and Hitmontop) were pokemon that would have given it free turns honestly. So, building without having to take any of those in mind opens up more ways to work with some underrated Pokemon in LU.

    TL;DR - Gonna sum this up really quick here. Mega Aggron is a fantastic tank and offensive SR user who you can use as an easy pivot in LU. It's pre mega has no switch in ability in most cases except in very specific cases, so you have to find a way to safely get it in via slow volt switch or u-turn, or by letting something die, or leading with it. It can fill several roles on a team, but is it overpowering or unhealthy in that regard? Well, with the new drops, loss of some of the tougher offensively oriented Pokemon that you want to have a check for minimum, it opens a path to try new Pokemon in offensive roles, as well many existing Pokemon can heavily dent it without using too much effort other than simple click and hit. It's impossible to OHKO without like STAB fire type moves, but with spike stacking and hazards, and wanting to try and use it as a pivot, it racks up damage fairly easily. It doesn't actually put too much of a restriction on teambuilding since you don't need very specific things, just a specific type or archetype set in general, and you should be fine for taking it on. Lack of good recovery really leaves it open for giving an opponent momentum to work with, and its sets have trade offs.

    It's great, but not overly great that at this time it deserves to be banned from LU. That's not to say we can't do another suspect of it in the future, just we feel there are currently many more unhealthy presences that affect our current decision of backing a full on ban at the current moment. Once we have addressed what we feel might be more detrimental and come to a decision on those, we can always revisit Aggronite in the future if it becomes problematic. We'll have more suspects in the near future, thanks to all for taking part.
     
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