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Suspect Discussion - Celebi (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Aurist, Jan 17, 2016.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep

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    Discuss the possibility of banning Celebi from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Celebi as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.
     
  2. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Article Contributor Forum Moderator Article Contributor

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    Celebi is an exceptional pokemon that always belonged to UU-OU. It entering in LU changed a lot of stuff in the LU metagame, as the metagame can't really adapt to it easily.
    Having 100 base stat across all the stats is very bulky and still has a lot of offensive presence. I'll discuss mainly of Nasty Plot sets and Defensive set as I feel they're the one making Celebi broken at the moment.

    The Nasty Plot set:
    Generally goes with psychic giga drain and Earth power, this set has very few counters ( such as Bronzong) and can very easily sweep teams that lack fast Fire pokemon ( ie: Scarf Typh/Delphox) and even then Pursuit trapping them is not hard, or even trapping them with Dugtrio. If this shows in a manner that you need little support so you can pull of the Celebi Sweep, the problem consists in the fact it's very cheap and way too effective for the LU metagame.

    Defensive sets:
    Generally go with Thunder Wave/SR/Sub Leech Seed or whatever you want, Celebi has an amazing movepool and can tank with ease unresisted hits and spread paralysis, or just stall with sub seed. Having access to Recover, Heal bell and having Natural cure as ability makes its longevity way too long for LU. By experience, I had to add Trick/Signal beam on Rotom-C for having a chance of crippling Celebi, which is not healthy for the tier.

    In my opinion Celebi is too much for the tier, and should be banned
     
  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Simple but easy to look up on, so people might post more or discuss the various sets and what you might use to get around.

    - Base 100 speed is awesome, so not many threats are hanging around to go 1 on 1 without priority or being faster.
    - Nasty Plot + base 100 Sp.Att with 3 excellent coverage moves that essentially cover most of it's weaknesses. Has SD and a decent 3 Physical Attack set, but it's semi-lackluster vs the Special set because Giga Drain recovery is amazing.
    - Awesome support movepool, SR, T-Wave, Heal Bell, Baton Pass, U-Turn, Healing Wish. If you need a bulky pivot type, Celebi actually fills that role nice, but it's generally too passive to be much help or threatening to many of the threats in the tier who could actually KO it fairly easy.
    - Really few switch in options or actual checks when it gets NP up. It's hard to call for Scarf U-Turners doing so as well, because none of them can actually switch in when it could just blast Pokemon with Psychic without a second thought. 4x Bug weak might be a thing, but when you take 50% or more to switch in, your only attempting to revenge kill, and trying to do so with a Pivot move at best.

    One on One - It's extremely dangerous to pretty much every bulky Pokemon. There's a very short list of Pokemon that won't mind it, but would play passively or let it set up +6 and see how long it takes to kill depending on the moves. This would be more like Bronzong or Klefki (Magnet Rise is a thing), and would hope to weaken it with Toxic or something that it forces out. Not too many of those, practically everything else that's "bulky" kind of dies to +2 "insert general damage move here" and you have to hit back with super effective or really good STAB to threaten it down. A really nice option is Goodra who can make Giga ineffective, and has such bulk that Psychic would take a while to kill. Escavalier is a strong option since HP Fire isn't that much of a thing, though on Specs sets it might be.

    In a more Offensive setting - Scarf Braviary, CB Flygon, Noivern, Delphox, Durant, Sneasel, Scarf Pangoro, Mega Glalie, various Moltres sets, Jolteon, Scrafty, and some others. They all can be very threatening to Celebi's existence, but not too many of these are sure fire, and some actually can only dent it to a death range for a follow up kill. Again 4x weak to bug is cool, but CB Flygon and Scarf Braviary aren't killing, and BB from Braviary is not exactly a hard move to check/counter with a switch. Jolteon would have to run Signal Beam (which to beat Rotom-C easier isn't a bad idea), Scrafty would need DD, Glalie would have to be Mega Evolved already and even then it could end up as a speed tie. Delphox and Noivern are nice checks as they force Celebi out and can get set up in their own right.

    Honestly, so far I'm leaning to believe that Celebi's presence alone is a lot for Pokemon in the tier to have to compensate for just due to how great it's speed, bulk, general typing, and offensive presence can turn a match into a one sided affair. It doesn't need set up to do it's job effectively, and has the coverage to not really fear many threats with proper thinking power. On the flip side, you can't make 100% predictions which can cause some problems, it's general typing means that weak to Knock Off and other easily spammable moves means that it's only going to come in as a revenge follow up or on very passive Pokemon. It can't risk pretty much any switch ins that ruin it's overall survivability in a match.
     
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  4. Joyverse

    Joyverse L-lewd.... Forum Moderator Articles Leader Forum Moderator Articles Leader

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    Carl pretty much explained the NP and defensive. And I don't have much to say about the defensive either. But he forgot to mention the way it is checked by a variety of pokemon in LU.
    1)scarf Boar/Typh
    2)Fletchinder. SD Fletch can setup in front on NP Celebi cuz it tanks psychic and OHKO the following turn.
    3)Delphox, even doe it can be pursuit trapped afterwards by Sneasel. Sneasel can't switch into its fire moves which threatens both.
    4) AV Tang. It's a very shaky check but it can status with sbomb. Remove item with knock off while being able to tank hits unless Celebi sets up.
    5)Sneasel. Unless you have something like Yache or Colbur berry. And you can't have both.
    6)~ I should have posted earlier as Phantom posted them all. There aren't any direct counter to it.

    I actually am leaning on the ban side atm but thing is am not clear of it yet. As am pretty reliant on this poke in LU. It's like my go to sweeper that wrecks the regen core and stuff. It's a pretty bulky mon for a setup sweeper and from experience ltanks U-Turn from both Flygon and Scarf Brav. So it ends up killing instead of getting killed.Now I think it is more or less on the council to decide on whether to ban or not.
     
  5. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep

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    The way I see it with Celebi, you have several perfectly reasonable sets, ones that would define it as a top mon but certainly not broken - various physical sets, the different variations on bulky/support sets, scarf, specs, etc. Sadly, Celebi also learns Nasty Plot. This set in my opinion is what takes Celebi over the edge and makes it pretty unreasonable to deal with, there's very little you can do to stop Celebi from setting up thanks to its bulk, decent typing and natural cure, and once it is set up you have little to no switch ins/things that can take a hit, and a lot of those just get set up on themselves. So your main option with dealing with NP Celebi is revenge killing, which is absolutely possible and we have a few options for it, though several of them aren't exactly guaranteed because Celebi is that bulky. Its plethora of alternative sets also allow it to bluff whether it has NP or not, and due to the very limited ways of dealing with the NP set it's extremely easy for Celebi to lure in mons that check it with other sets.

    I am personally leaning pro-ban for Celebi but it's entirely for the Nasty Plot set which has basically only a small handful of (mostly scarfed) revengers as the option to deal with it. Feels like it's a shame that that is the case because I feel Celebi is otherwise a healthy mon in the tier, but it is what it is.
     
  6. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    252 SpA Life Orb Celebi Psychic vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Fletchinder: 269-317 (88.7 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

    Just gonna throw that out there. But, Fletchinder doesn't exactly tank a Psychic, but Acro and any previous damage done to Celebi means at worst, they kill each other, otherwise Fletch forces out because Acrobatics with no SD boost can do upwards of 90% damage, just it's not gonna try for a set up, that'd be dumb.

    Also Typh is bad in LU, don't use. Emboar though gets a seal of approval. Tangrowth is a bit of a shaky thing, as even max HP/Sp.Def invested AssVest gets 2hko'd by +2 Psychic. That is really telling about Celebi's potency without hitting it for super effective damage, and how Growth isn't exactly tanking it. AV mons in general just really hate set up mons.

    Also @Aurist while I share the sentiment, Celebi also does learn Calm Mind. So I figure, even without NP, it'd have a troublesome Offensive or Bulky CM set, which unlike pretty much all other CM users, it doesn't have to waste a move slot for recovery (though it does get recover) as it has a damaging move in Giga Drain.
     
  7. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Celebi has always been a tricky pokemon since it came to LU, as it can run a myriad of sets and can actually perform most of them quite well. Base 100 across the board is also very good in LU, being bulky, fast and powerful all at the same time. I think we can al agree that the Nasty Plot set is the best set, as it can set up on most of the tier, and be able to usually get 2HKO'es on most of the mons after one boost. However, it's typing leaves it with 7 weaknesses, most of them being common in Dark, Flying and Fire. It's speed also does not let outspeed most offensive pokemon like Delphox, Scarf Emboar, Sigilyph and Noivern. Although it still rips apart balance and stall teams with ease thanks to it's amazing coverage and general ease it has to setup. I am really torn, as I actually believe it can be a healthy component to the tier, as it can break some of the most annoying cores in the tier in AmongMola and TangKing. Since I am so undecided, I guess I will vote no ban, but I wouldn't be opposed if it left either.
     
  8. Xdevo

    Xdevo The bear was upon Tom Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Bunch of things wrong here: Sigilyph is slower than Timid Celebi, Amoonguss isn't LU, and TangKing is very far from a common core in LU.



    Celebi is an extremely powerful threat in LU. The Nasty Plot set is borderline impossible to actually counter. Esca and Bronzong generally win (though HP Fire can win vs both of them). Klefki can take an attack (or more with Magnet Rise) but can't stop Celebi from eventually sweeping due to Natural Cure and a lack of recovery for Klefki. At the end of the day, Celebi essentially forces a revenge kill, which isn't helped by Celebi's 100/100/100 bulk. Things like Delphox, Emboar etc all have a pretty bad time in attempting to switch into play against Celebi so are pretty much forced to gamble the prediction game, or to sack something.

    Celebi isn't something that has any trouble setting up either. 7 weaknesses may seem excessive, but Celebi patches that fact up by having a huge of useful resistances, and the fact that many of the weaknesses are things that just can't switch into Celebi in LU. Giga Drain also ensures that wearing Celebi down is a pain, so even with a great deal of offensive pressure, Celebi can keep its health high enough for a sweep.

    So yeah, Celebi is broken in LU. The defensive sets aren't broken, but they never actually are so its a moot point.
     
  9. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I guess I am still living in the past, I do agree that it has a lot potential to be broken, but from my experience, it has trouble dealing with offense due to it's abundant weaknesses. But yeah, I guess the majority wants it to be banned.
     
  10. Joyverse

    Joyverse L-lewd.... Forum Moderator Articles Leader Forum Moderator Articles Leader

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    I guess me too. Celebi especially NP Cabbage (Well point to note I mostly used SD Cabbage but the teams having NP Celebi were far more better xd ) Has technically 0 counters (Due to Bronzong,Esca,Key getting down to HP Fire) And the only way possible way is to revenge kill which is never considered healthy. I was leaning for a ban before but now I think we should definitely ban it.
     
  11. Draciel

    Draciel Ghost in the Shell

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    Celebi has phenomenal all-round stats and an exceptional movepool, and should rightfully belong in OU/UU. It has excellent defensive typing with resistance to the common water/fighting/psychic attacks; it can go all-out offensive with Nplot/SD and Life Orb, it can go defensive with access to a plethora of support moves, it can do almost anything because of how versatile it is. The biggest threat in LU is definitely the NPlot set with 3 attacks (Giga drain/Psychic/Hp fire) which allows it to wallbreak pretty easily, and Natural cure means it can just switch out and come back again to get rid of status effects which might hinder it's sweep. Other offensive/support sets are quite viable too, but I won't ramble about those since they aren't the main cause of concern in the tier.

    However it's typing is a dual-edged sword. Grass/Psychic means it's 4x weak to the best pivot move in the game: U-turn. Even Scarf Flygon's U-turn (one of the best revenge killers in the tier) deals massive damage to offensive Celebi. Mons like Noivern/Sneasel/Delphox/Durant/Archeops outspeed and outright KO Celebi with their STAB attacks, Joteon deals massive damage with Signal beam (specs outright OHKOes), Fletchinder can reliable revenge kill it from 80%+ with priority Acrobatics(which isn't hard after LO recoil) and Sigilyph can 1v1 it with Heat wave. Other than that common Scarf mons in the tier like Braviary/Pangoro/Emboar can all reliably revenge kill. Stall or defensive teams have a much harder time dealing with the pixie as expected, because of its excellent typing+ability allows it to set up without much trouble and sweep with relative ease.

    To sum it up:

    Is Celebi outright broken in LU? No. Even with it's versatility and power, Celebi isn't impossible to deal with due to the sheer number of offensive mons in the tier that can beat it 1v1. Granted, nothing can switch in safely without losing a chunk of their health, but with enough offensive pressure it's not that hard to deal with it (4x U-Turn weakness makes that even easier).

    Is Celebi unhealthy for the tier? Yes, very much so. It pretty much invalidates Stall/balanced playstyle; excellent bulk, typing and Natural cure means it can switch out and set up multiple times threatening a sweep. Even offensive teams will need to sack something to an offensive Celebi, just so they get the opportunity to revenge kill it.

    Tl;dr: Celebi might not seem outright broken in LU, but it's pros far outweigh it's cons. The fact that it's so easily spammable on teams and provides so many options makes it kind of centralizing for the tier, so in my opinion it's a bit too much for LU. So I'll be leaning towards a ban as well!
     
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  12. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep

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    So because this thread wasn't concluded before the end of the month, and because 2 very significant checks for Celebi that might very well make the difference have dropped, this suspect will continue on. If people who have already posted could add what they feel considering the new checks of Mandibuzz/Rotom-H dropping for Celebi, that'd be great.
     
    Purpleseamonkey likes this.
  13. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep

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    So the council have discussed Celebi's situation and decided that the recent addition of some checks to Celebi, while helpful, didn't quite take it below too powerful for the tier, simply making Celebi's coverage less universal in forcing it to have to decide its 3rd coverage move was not quite enough to reduce the overpowering effect Celebi still had in the tier with its incredible ease of setting up very devastating sets with still limited answers. As a result, Celebi will be banned from the LU tier, thanks to all who took part in the discussion and we should see a result for the Mega Aggron thread shortly.
     
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