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Baton Pass Suspect Thread[Banned]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by ZoroDark, Jan 22, 2016.

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  1. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    [​IMG]
    shoutout resident artist @Isa

    Discuss the possibility of Baton Pass being banned from the ORAS OU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss the impact of Baton Pass on the metagame. Talk about the different ways of utilising this move, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on wether Baton Pass should be banned (or not) from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against Baton Pass in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Note that the options are: a) ban Baton Pass or b) do nothing and stick with the current restriction of 1 BP user per team. A complex ban like the one on Smogon isn't an option due to coding problems, so don't bother arguing for it as your post will just get deleted.

    Users that are unsure about suspect posting are encouraged to check out this guide.
     
  2. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Alright, I'll try to outline my thoughts as best as possible (in as few words as possible, because I know people cba to read).

    Baton Pass itself isn't inherently broken. Dedicating 1 Pokemon and often 2 moveslots on that Pokemon to boost another Pokemon in your party is reasonably balanced in terms of cost/profit. The problem arises when specific boosts are passed to certain mons so that they become unmanagable for most teams. Examples of this would be Scolipede passing def/speed boosts to Espeon/Clefable and GeoPass Smeargle passing to sweepers. In these strategies, there is a huge reward for the risk that is associated with it, as there is not a whole lot that you can do to prevent this, as most Baton Passers have ways around their counters.

    That being said, there is also a small group of Pokemon that uses Baton Pass in a "harmless" way. Examples of this group are Celebi, who really likes BP to escape Pursuit, and Specs Sylveon, who likes BP to keep momentum. On these mons the move itself isn't broken, because they can't pass "broken" boosts to other mons.

    All in all, I'm kind of on the fence of banning Paton Pass. However, I think the advantages of getting rid of BP strategies outweighs the disadvantages of losing a small group of mons that will most likely lose their niche in OU, or find it harder to do their job effectively.

    Tl;dr: pros > cons so ban
     
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  3. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I would have liked there to be more options in this suspect given the fact that there is a clear consensus that there is a problem with this strategy.

    That being said, this has been a problem for so long because of the flexibility some of the passers we have. With speed boost or proper team support it is almost impossible to prevent boosting outside of running thundurus on every team. With so few situational checks and a ridiculous amount of workarounds, facing a new team with this strategy gives the opponent far too many unpredictable options to win the game.

    While baton pass is a strategy that can be easily counter teamed and is also not broken on everything that uses it (see: gorebyss, mew, Celebi, ninjask), it makes any game matchup dependent to an unfair degree and should leave the tier
     
    Aurist likes this.
  4. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Finally this is happening, Baton Pass is a cheap strategy which involves very little skill to use. Although it did get nerfed quite significantly, even only one BP user can shift the tides between many battles. The ability to be able to pass boosts quite easily due to your opponents team either not being able to handle it or it's checks against it (Priority, extremely bulky walls, phazers but then Ingrain exists) are removed. Dedicating your team just to deal with BP is very aggravating at times, as it can leave your team more susceptible to other threats. I will be covering the most common and effective BP cores imo:

    1. Scolipass + Clefable

    [​IMG] + [​IMG]

    Scolipede @ Mental Herb
    Trait: Speed Boost
    EVs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 240 Spe
    - Protect
    - Substitute
    - Baton Pass
    - Iron Defense

    Clefable @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 84 SpD / 100 Spe
    - Calm Mind
    - Moonblast
    - Soft-Boiled
    - Flamethrower

    Probably the most common BP core in OU atm, as passing boosts with Scolipede is so easy to do atm thanks to Speed Boost and it's inherently decent bulk. Iron Defense and Speed boosts coupled with Calm Mind boosts makes Clefable almost unstoppable, and it does not take to many turns to setup. The great synergy these two mons have with each other is truly amazing, and most of the time the opposing team will need to be reliant on crits to take Clefable out. It's Fairy typing also helps it be able to sweep the majority of teams due to it being great offensively, and Magic Guard makes it that only attacks can damage it. It is truly one of the toughest cores to beat atm, and is honestly too good to stay in OU, especially when the stuff that can counter it like Heatran, Talonflame, and Mega Charizard-Y are gone. Espeon can also be used as an alternative to Clefable, as it can be useful with Magic Bounce to block out phazing and have STAB on Stored Power.

    2. Geomancy Pass
    [​IMG] + [​IMG] / [​IMG] / [​IMG]

    Smeargle (F) @ Power Herb
    Trait: Own Tempo
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    - Geomancy
    - Dark Void
    - Ingrain/Stealth Rock
    - Baton Pass

    or

    Espeon (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Stored Power
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Substitute
    - Protect

    or

    Keldeo-R @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Scald
    - Secret Sword
    - Icy Wind
    - Hidden Power [Electric]

    or

    Diancie @ Diancite
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    - Moonblast
    - Earth Power
    - Ancient Power
    - Protect

    The infamous GeoPass strategy has been terrifying OU since XY, due to the massive amount of power, bulk and speed Geomancy brings in one turn. It's popularity died down a bit in ORAS thanks to the massive influx of powerful hitters we received, but it still remains to be a dominate strategy if not played around properly. Smeargle can easily put an opposing mon to sleep and start to setup with Geomancy easily and pass the boosts to a Magic Bounce special attacker like Espeon or Mega Diancie, or to a powerful special attacker like Keldeo. Due to the bulk Geo brings, it can be sometimes difficult to revenge kill the mons who had been passed the boosts, usually needing powerful physical priority moves to deal with it. The immediate boosts Geo brings is what makes it truly terrifying to face, and is not something I feel is healthy for OU play.

    3. Shell Smash Pass
    [​IMG] + Any Sweeper really (Gengar, Mega Loppuny, Kyreum-B to name a few)

    Gorebyss @ White Herb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    - Shell Smash
    - Baton Pass
    - Surf
    - Substitute

    A huge annoyance in BW, Smash Pass is also very annoying and difficult to deal with in ORAS, due to the astronomical boost it gives to any offensive mon capable of sweeping. Especially with screens/memento, Gorebyss can setup a Shell Smash and easily bass the amazing boosts to it's teammates usually signifying a GG if your opponents team is weakened. There are very few repercussions when utilizing this "strategy" and Gorebyss can be splashed onto any offensive team needing a win condition. It's quite that simple, and not that healthy.

    Tl;DR Baton Pass is a huge problem in OU atm thanks to it's capability of upgrading any mon to insane extremes. Even though it has been nerfed to even one mon, it still can be run quite deadly as seen above (and I haven't even covered all the cores btw). It is about time that it should go, and if it means no more dry passing then be it, because I do not want to keep broken elements of the meta just to be able to use niche strategies. Baton Pass should be banned.








     
  5. Zamrock

    Zamrock - OUTL

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    To those who were PMing/VMing me, sorry about the confusion for the first time I posted about this, hope this is all straightened out now.

    I honestly don't have a problem with Baton Pass when it comes to simple, good strategies such as Swords Dance, Baton Pass Gliscor to Azumarill, Nasty Plot, Baton Pass Celebi into a Scarf Keldeo, and others because these are manageable to fight against and are valuable in skillful gameplay. Smashpass also plays the same roll however a bit more difficult to counter against if you're too late to stop a passer from BPing to something that sweeps you. The problem that I have with Baton Pass is mainly just certain mons and strategies between the Scoliepede/Smeargle + Espeon/any Magic Bounce User. There are certain strategies between these mons that have minimal flaws and I consider "broken" with the following reasons:

    I don't remember the exact spreads for all of the listed mons but let me give you an in-depth explanation on why I feel this strategy is just too much for ORAS OU. Scolipass: This strategy requires a scolipede moveset that contains BP/Iron Defense/Protect/Sub and an Espeon with CM/Stored Power/DGleam/Morning Sun or Sub. If you don't have priority taunt, roar, whilwind, or even haze, you are basically set-up food for these 2 mons. Protect on Scolipede makes it easy to get a free +1 Speed stat from its ability Speed Boost and then switches back-and-forth between Sub and Protect until it gets +6 in Speed. Iron Defense makes it easier on the bug to just sub vs any of your physical threats, especially Dragon Tail Garchomp so it doesn't get phazed out. This process continues until Scolipede reaches +6 in Defense and Speed, and then later Baton Passes to Espeon. Once this this gets a +2 in defense and you send out your phazer, well it's already too late because the bug can still just BP out of there into Magic Bounce Espeon, blocking your roar/whilwind while keeping its boosts. Espeon can then freely start using Calm Minds, Recover any damage with Morning Sun, and/or spam Subs of its own if it has it, making it impossible to kill it unless you get a crit. And because of its ability magic bounce, there is no way to stall it out using toxic (unless MB Excadrill, even then it's already too late to stop it's sweep). It only needs 2 coverage moves being Stored Power and Dazzling Gleam to sweep basically every team barring the ones with Shedninja, which I find absolutely ridiculous.

    Smeargle Pass requires a lot more support, however once pulled off, you just lost. Teams w/ this requires a simple blueprint of a suicide lead w/rocks and screens/memento or tailwind/smeargle/espeon/backup sweeper (i.e Azelf/Whimsicott/Diancie/Smeargle/Espeon/Talon or whatever you want). The strategy here is very simple, get rocks up ASAP as well as screens, maybe even get a tailwind up if given the opportunity, later Memento on w/e mon tries to phaze you out, bring Smeargle with BP/Geomancy/Cotton Guard/Spore or Taunt with Power Herb, simple process of sporing a threat if need-be, geoing, cging, and BPing to whatever threat you have that's going to sweep teams. Very hard to phaze this out because of Spore/Taunt, Whimsicott with Prankster Taunt/Encore/Memento to prevent any defog/spin, not to mention paired with a Magic Bounce user to make it even more challenging. Once Smeargle gets +2 on every stat and Baton Passes to diancie/espeon, the game is over.

    I honestly wished that there was a way to complex ban BP because of the earlier strategies I've mentioned before that are not broken at all, but if it comes down to bug problems and just killing off GeoPass/Speed Boost Pass, then by all means, get rid of baton pass because I cannot stand the sight of something so cheap and easy to use that cleans teams with little effort and having very minimal ways to counter. Ban Baton Pass as a whole, if there was anything confusing about what I've mentioned earlier, feel free to ask so I can explain it better.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2016
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  6. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Lol i forgot about Cotton Guard Geomancy Smeargle, even more disgusting....
     
  7. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Article Contributor Forum Moderator Article Contributor

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    Baton pass is a broken move that creates a lot of broken strategies. Even Nasty Pass can be a problem when used correctly ( I've tried Nasty pass Celebi to Sub Salac Keldeo with HP Flying) and this is just way too powerful depending the team you're facing.

    While it is true that Geopass and Smashpass might be the best options, I don't think we can say the other are weak. The only one not broken is quick passing since it doesn't have boosts and simply makes you evade from Pursuit trap or give you a switch initiative ( like U-Turn)

    In my opinion Baton pass should be banned as it's cancerous in the tier
     
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  8. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I think you mean dry passing. Quick passing is passing after a single boosting move.
     
  9. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Article Contributor Forum Moderator Article Contributor

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    Yes, I call it Quick passing but I meant Dry Passing :)
     
  10. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

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    Baton Passing is a complex strategy since Gen3. Its usauage require extensive planning and pre calculations.
    Its countered by simple moves/items like Roar, Taunt, Focus Sash. Required are 2 moveslots on the passer and the sweeper
    can not set up by himself.
     
  11. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Good luck taunting or roaring when the BP recipient has Magic Bounce. Besides, the only taunt users that are even close to a threat to BP are those with Prankster, and a good number of them have better things they could be doing.

    Also, focus sash is a terrible argument. The number of ways to disrupt it is extremely high, with the chief being Stealth Rock, arguably the single most ubiquitous tactic in the game.
     
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  12. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    I would normally do a more thorough post in a suspect thread but I'm just going to quote a few lines from Zamrock's post here and echo what he's said.

    Baton Pass simply allows the user to switch out of play without electing to use the switch button. This is "dry passing", a strategy used for pivoting, avoiding Pursuit users and preserving momentum, and is neither controversial nor the reason why Baton Pass has undergone so many nerfs and restrictions. Additionally, the move allows for stat increases or decreases to be passed to the intended recipient. While this does allow for certain pokemon to elevate their stats beyond what their movepool might normally allow (e.g. Keldeo receiving +2 SpA from Celebi in lieu of having Nasty Plot), I don't feel that this strategy is difficult to see coming either from team preview alone or given intelligent, mindful observations in a battle. Strategies such as SmashPass, GeoPass, NastyPass and etc. have (for most of them) existed for many generations of OU and while they can be situationally very useful in sweeping unprepared teams or cleaning as late-game win conditions, I have always felt that many of these pokemon are already very sub par in OU (see: Gorebyss, Huntail, Smeargle, Barbaracle, etc.) in addition to the opponent having ample time to react and stop the pass and/or sweep before it begins.

    I'm only bothering to say all this because even though the result of my vote will produce the same result as everyone else's, I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning that others are putting forth for why it should be banned. From my perspective, Baton Pass isn't a broken move, it isn't especially broken on any one pokemon that learns it (not in the traditional sense anyway), and not only are most of its uses entirely fair and manageable but it also gives many prominent or otherwise viable OU pokemon additional diversity in what they can accomplish and the sets they can run. Celebi, Lopunny, Sylveon, Mew, Scizor, Scolipede, Vaporeon and other lesser-seen pokemon all have viable sets or niches that would be disrupted by a Baton Pass ban, and I'm sure I've forgotten some. Personally, I think something like SubPass Lopunny, NastyPass Celebi, SD Passing defensive Scizor and CM passing Sylveon are really neat, unexpected options that have settled nicely into the tier, and to write it all off simply because "we have a lot of option in Gen 6 so who cares!" seems like very rushed, poor logic.

    Unfortunately, given that there is no complex ban option available, banning Baton Pass from OU is the only viable solution to restrict the types of teams revolving around unhealthy and (arguably) uncompetitive cores as Zamrock and others have listed. Banning Scolipede, Smeargle or Espeon are horrendous decisions that should not ever be considered as part of a healthy tiering process, and banning Geomancy and Shell Smash, while appealing on-face and having minimal collateral damage, won't actually solve the problem. Without a complex ban option I don't feel that a defensible anti-ban argument exists to support the existence of cancerous, centralizing and restrictive GeoPass teams, nor is it worth it to defend current unhealthy BP cores (e.g. Scoli+Clef) as they add very little of value to the metagame.
     
  13. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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  14. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    ORAS OU used Baton Pass!
    Pokemon Online called ORAS OU back!
    Pokemon Online sent out ORAS Ubers!
     
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  15. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    if that wasn't clear, we're banning baton pass from the ORAS OU metagame due to the fact that the complex alternatives are not currently at our disposal and the (overwhelming) majority of the council and this thread believes that there is enough of an issue in the current OU metagame that something must be done. thanks to all for participating and expect more in the near future!_!
     
  16. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    ps fuck draciel for making me properly ban it, the first post was funny and obvious enough SIGH
     
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