1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Guest, PO has ceased our separate tiering and adopted Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.

    Dismiss Notice

[Balanced Hackmons] Balanced Hackmons Hoenn Trio Suspect Discussion [Primals are Banned]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by Funbot28, Jan 30, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    98
    So I believe we should have a thread to discuss possible suspects for the Balanced Hackmons metagame, as i believe it is not balanced in it's current state. A TL can open an official suspect thread if they wish, but this will act as one as of now.

    The three pokemon I believe that should be put in question are:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Here are the most common sets:
    Primal Groudon @ Choice Band
    Trait: Tinted Lens/Desolate Land
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    - V-create
    - Thousand Arrows
    - U-turn/Bolt Strike
    - Trick

    Primal Kyogre @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    - Steam Eruption/Scald
    - Quiver Dance
    - Moonblast/Leech Seed
    - King's Shield

    Mega Rayquaza @ Life Orb
    Trait: Aerilate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    - Fake Out
    - Extreme Speed
    - Boomburst
    - Magma Storm/Spore/King's Shield

    There are many other sets, but these are the most broken ones imo

    The Hoen Trio really restrict the metagame and teambuilding to a point where your team would be at a serious disadvantage if at least one of them is not on your team. There huge 780 BST really are what makes them overbearing for the tier to handle, only being rivaled by the Mega Mewtwo's (another problem that should be addressed later). These pokemon really do not add any healthy elements to the metagame, almost completely invalidating stall teams, due to them not being able to handle their strong attacks. Most BH teams I see now are composed of -ate check/Imposter Check/Chansey/Sleep absorber/Shedinja check/Filler (usually one of the Heon trio). This really makes most teams almost identical, and really decelerates the progression of the metagame.

    I personally advocate the ban of the two Primal pokemon, but I am still unsure of Mega Rayquaza, as it can be more easily checked.

    Discuss the possibility of banning these pokemon in the Balanced Hackmons metagame, so that there can hopefully be an official discussion thread. Please no shitposting. You can also discuss other potential bans as well, but try to focus on these three first.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
    willdbeast likes this.
  2. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    654
    PO Trainer Name:
    TraceofLife
    alright so here we go!

    Kyogre:
    Primal Kyogre @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    - Steam Eruption/Scald
    - Quiver Dance
    - Moonblast
    - Leech Seed

    this is imo the most dangerous p-ogre set that exists, literally nothing can defeat this mon once it sets up, nothing bar hax defeats this shit after it sets up which says something, if i were to choose, i'd gladly ban this shit


    Groudon:

    Primal Groudon @ Choice Band
    Trait: Tinted Lens/Desolate Land
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    - V-create
    - Thousand Arrows
    - U-turn/Bolt Strike
    - Trick

    this set and the contrary one are the most used sets for the don. but i'll talk about the tinted lens/desolate land one here, anyways this set is literally fucking strong, a v-create from this mon literally 2hkoes giratina before it can do anything (giratina is the best wall on hackmons mind you)

    252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 392-462 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    nothing walls this mon and i believe this mon should honestly go

    Rayquaza: this one is a bit tricky, while rayquaza is very versatile, it's weak to 2 of -ate ability and the other one isn't a resist as well, it's really frail to some priority. unlike the don and ogre, this mon isn't literally a problem compared to them, so yeah i think this i'd vote no ban on this one
     
  3. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    161
    PO Trainer Name:
    willdbeast
    What you have done is in fact lied. "Here are the most common sets". As of right now the most common set for pdon is: desolate land synthesis + sacred fire (source POs usage stats). However this just goes to show that it has a huge range of perfectly viable sets (which have almost no cost/benefit since you can run as many primals as you like) such as for pdon: contrary with thousand waves, contrary mixed, tinted lens, defensive/offensive desolate land, fur coat, sand rush etc to name a few. The problem with pdon specifically being in the tier is it is so versatile that until they reveal what set it is you have to preserve your checks for every variation of it so just having one massively limits their options as well as tinted lens not actually having any counters (maybe flash fire gougeist?) seeing as it OHKOs anything up to and including giratina in the right conditions. Mega ray is just ridiculous with sharp beak boom burst ohkoing even things like pdon and espeed+fake out RKing pretty much any offensive threat not running king shield however kingshield is a very common move and any sweeper should be running something that hits mega ray very hard thanks to its many weaknesses and it can also be worn down by rocks easily enough as long as you have a check to it. Primal kyogre is just annoying as hell IMO :v.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
  4. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    98
    Ya I just chose the most common sets that I see, I actually didn't check the usage stats, but like you said it can run sooo many viable sets that it doesn't even matter lol
     
    willdbeast likes this.
  5. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2011
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    6
    Everything has counters in Balanced Hackmons.

    All sets listed here are neither most common, broken or unbeatable.
    BH has some nice balancing mechanics.


    Personally i think CB P-Groudon is bad.
    Talking about this one;

    Primal Groudon @ Choice Band
    Trait: Tinted Lens/Desolate Land
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    - V-create
    - Thousand Arrows
    - U-turn/Bolt Strike
    - Trick

    Against everything faster you have to fear a water move. (354+ SpA 1HKOs)
    252 SpA Expert Belt Jirachi Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Primal Groudon: 408-485 (100.9 - 120%)

    2nd Ability Choice matters alot.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Latias in Harsh Sunshine: 323-381 (88.7 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance

    That means you need Adamant to have a chance of getting M-Latias, Arceus is out of reach if Nve.
    With Tinted Lens you risk doing 0 damage against Heavy Rain, Dizzle halves your main dmg nuke.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 196-232 (38.8 - 46%)
    This calc shows that Fuar Coat Giratina walls you, because you will be slower after the Speed drop.

    If you chose Thousand Arrows you cant even 1HKO Mewtwo Y after 1 LO recoil.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 306-361 (73.5 - 86.7%)

    As you should know Protean Mewtwo Y doesnt even need LO to 1HKO you
    252 SpA Expert Belt Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Primal Groudon: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%)

    You cant switch into anything, not even stuff like T-tar as your item might get knocked away.
    Even if you 1HKO something its very likely that you will be revengekilled, gaining only a choice of switch in.

    Anything with Kings Shield/Spiky Shield reveals your move choice.
    Sleeping moves are very problematic if your 279 Speed gets outpaced.
    You are completly walled by Shedinja.


    Maybe more later; but 1 more fact; posting a Choice Band pokemon as most common and broken in a tier
    where you can chose any move-combination shows that you have not understood the spirit of Balanced Hackmons.
     
  6. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    654
    PO Trainer Name:
    TraceofLife
    you have no how deadly is the p-don set, I mean it's not like a p-don going to switch in on a MMY, you have other 5 mons, also Jirachi is irrelevant, it's completely outclassed by some mons. fur coat giratina is ok-ish but it's not that good anyways.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
    Funbot28 likes this.
  7. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    98
    Ugmm Choice Band is one of the most common and effective sets P-Don can run lol, and bringing up stuff like Jirachi really does not prove to me anything as it's like saying "Mega Mawile is not broken as it get's outspeed and KO'ed by Typhlosion", and I am sorry I do not hold the all mighty spirit of Hacmons yet, I really am trying to achieve it.
     
  8. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2011
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    6
    I shortcuted my post a bit, i mentioned Jirachi only as an example pokemon for a 100 base SpA.

    354 SpA is 100% 1HKO with Steam Erruption (neutral P-Don).
    Im kinda surprised that the actual pokemon name is more relevant than the calc itself.
     
  9. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    98
    Its not just the pokemon that matters, but theorizing situations in which a pokemon with this 100 base Sp.A can swtching into P-Don (which is almost impossible) and is facing a Tinted Lens P-Don (in which Desolate Land is also very popular to counter P-Ogre) is very situational and should not justify an argument to keep it in the tier. I'm not saying P-Don doesn't have checks (which most are very niche and unconventional), but the starin it puts on teambuilding is very unhealthy in the current BH metagame, in which I believe it should be banned.
     
  10. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2013
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    45
    PO Trainer Name:
    Mr Snake
    The big thing about P-Don isn't so much any one set but the fact that it can do pretty much everything that a physical or mixed attacker or tank can do and it's arguably the best mon in the game at most of it. It hits so hard, has such a good typing, and has such good bulk that you basically are gimping yourself if you don't run it. There are a bunch of individual sets that may or may not be broken, but the Pokemon itself is just too ubiquitous and therefore centralizing.

    Mega Ray on the other hand is just too damn strong. It hits like Deo-A but actually has some ok bulk to back it up and thanks to max EVs there isn't really any disadvantage to running a mixed set. While Hackmons in general is extremely prediction-heavy and matchup based, mega Ray is the type of Pokemon that just goes absolutely stupid if the opponent mispredicts/has a bad matchup. It's got such high damage even without any type of setup or boosts, and gets even dumber when you add those in.

    Primal Ogre feels iffy. On one hand, it is kinda like P-Don in that it can do too much too well. On the other hand, I don't personally believe anything it does is broken per se. The banning of the ogre is something I could go either way on personally.
     
  11. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,745
    Likes Received:
    1,808
    PO Trainer Name:
    Edna
    I won't say I'm good at Hackmons but I had tutoring sessions and so I learned about it a lot.

    Primal Groudon is very broken due to its offensive capability of destroying walls when Tinted Lens or Contrary with V Create/Spower/Spore/Ground move you prefer but usually it's better with the one that negates Levitate and Flying users.
    I won't lie and say unless you're a god predictor, you'll lose something everytime, this is more than simply OHKO it, you also have to switch on it which is just not possible. I do believe Primal Don is very broken and needs to leave.


    Primal Kyogre is more a nuisance than something else, Toxic orb Leech seed Quiver Scald/Moonblast is the best you can run and can be countered by mon that have topsy turvy or phazing moves but it can turn to the deadly sweeper that doesn't lose to chansey since Leech Seed+Toxic Orb recovery deal quite easily with Chansey. Overall, I believe that Primal Kyogre is okish in the tier, it's borderline broken but in the other way I believe its presence can be good so I'm quite neutral about it.

    Don't have a solid opinion about Mega Ray so I'll avoid talking
     
  12. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    1,892
    PO Trainer Name:
    Neo
    @TraceofLife will be leading this discussion from now on as the Hackmons Tier Leader.
     
    sulcata likes this.
  13. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    654
    PO Trainer Name:
    TraceofLife
    hi, i'm now treating this thread as an official suspect instead of unofficial, discuss.
     
  14. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    98
    A lot of people have been bringing this up on Tohjo Falls as well, Tospsy-Turvy and phasers are both viable ways to deal with it, but unless you have Pranskter, or is some super wall or have Desolate Land as an ability, it can become difficult to utilize these moves against P-Ogre, due to it having such an easy time setting up against many common mons (Gira-A, Mega Audino, Chansey, MMY to an extent), and eveyrthing just seems to die after about 2 boosts. The best answer I have for it on my teams atm is Pranster Gastro Acid Registeel, but I feel that I am really sacrificing a lot just to deal with such a tremendous threat, as I can instead run something more useful in Magic Bounce and Aromatherapy.
     
  15. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2011
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    6
    Bulky Waters are existing since Gen2.

    Fire is best type in BH, resisting it was always important.
    On plus side water is resisting itself making it safer against Imposters.
    Sleep needs to be checked, having one status immunity helps alot.

    Defensive-wise P-Kyogre is no big difference to Arceus;
    252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Primal Kyogre: 393-463 (97.2 - 114.6%) -- 81.3%
    252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Water: 439-517 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 93.8%

    Who said M-Ray is not important ?
    252 SpA Primal Kyogre Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 210-248 (50.7 - 59.9%)
    252 SpA Arceus-Water Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 156-184 (37.6 - 44.4%)

    It can not kill itself
    +6 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Primal Kyogre: 327-385 (80.9 - 95.2%)
    252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Moonblast vs. +6 252 HP / 252 SpD Primal Kyogre: 21-25 (5.1 - 6.1%)

    This means the standart Quiver Dancer loses fully set up to itself if the opponent uses Heart Swap.
     
  16. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    98
    Sorry I responded to late but I find most of the arguments you presented aren't really that relevant in our current metagame. I really never see Seed Flare Mega Mewtwo-Y really, and I find P-Ogre setup wars to beextrmely unhealthy and luck based for the reason that the first person to get a crit wins. Again, Heart Swap is an option but unless you have Prankster, you won't be able to do much against it.
     
  17. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    654
    PO Trainer Name:
    TraceofLife
    it's been some time since this discussion started so now let's go to the decision

    Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre has been proved to be total aids to the metagame therefore both of them are Banned from BH since today!

    M-Rayquaza isn't as aids and could be handled easily since lots of mon checks it lol, therefore is not banned.

    thanks for participating!
     
    Funbot28 likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.