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February/March LU Tier & Potential Suspects

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Aurist, Feb 1, 2016.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    LU -> OU

    Metagross

    LU -> UU

    Gligar
    Rotom-C
    Heliolisk
    Hitmontop

    UU -> LU

    Rotom-H
    Magneton
    Mandibuzz
    Medicham
    Hoopa

    NU-> LU

    Chatot
    Electivire
    Sneasel
    Samurott
    Virizion
    Uxie
    Dugtrio

    LU-> NU

    Audino
    Vaporeon
    Gallade
    Chesnaught
    Ferroseed


    Ignoring the NU shifts which are mostly awful but don't actually affect LU, we have a pretty awesome tier list shift on our hands. It might seem bad that we lose several good mons in Gligar, Rotom-C, Heliolisk and Hitmontop, but they get replaced with several good mons too. Rotom-H will do a similar job to Rotom-C except it also will beat such as Nidoqueen and Escavalier. Mandibuzz will be a high impact defogger, Magneton is always welcome back and Medicham and Hoopa are brand new threats to the tier! Metagross also rises to OU, which was pretty inevitable and Metagross was annoying anyway.

    Feel free to discuss changes in here and as always talk of potential new suspects goes here too.

    Note that the Celebi and Mega Aggron suspects didn't end and neither of them changed tier, so make sure to keep discussing them and update for the new shifts at hand!
     
  2. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Heliosk and Rotom-C rising is kinda a joke since Damp Rock just got banned and Manectric is no longer OU... I expect we'll see them back pretty soon.

    On the other hand, Magneton, Medicham, and Rotom-H have all been here and have been powerful but not broken. Mandibuzz could potentially be too powerful of a wall like Porygon2 was, but only time will tell. Hoopa has some nice power but I feel its speed, defense, and awful typing are going to let it down.
     
  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    I would love to see Heliolisk back, but it's legitimately probably one of the best Electric types in between LU and UU. It has something many Electric types don't which is a move like Surf and Grass Knot, fairly decent movepool vs the highly limited 4-5 moves, and one of those being pick a Hidden Power type. Sure it doesn't have say Calm Mind, but it's among one of the fastest and still one of the most powerful Electric types to use. Rotom-C is a bit more of a stretch, but Manectric in base is lower than Heliolisk in terms of awesome use. Mega Manectric though would be the top one overall, but Heliolisk as an overall option is still pretty useful as a third option from Mega Manectric and Raikou.

    Honestly out of them all I expect Magneton to be the least impactful. Medicham didn't last too long his last stay before rising, and it has been a long time since Rotom-H has been LU, and a lot of things have changed. It'll probably still be an above average mon, but as long as the dragons of Goodra and Dragalge are here, I don't expect it to thrive, but we'll be heading on doing more suspects soon.

    Some of the Pokemon me and aurist have somewhat compromised on are Noivern and Moltres, after the current Celebi and Mega Aggron discussions are over with. Want to know if any one has opinions on both of those over say anything else? They are pretty threatening to teams and neither need a lot of support barring removing Rocks if needed. Spammable stabs makes it tough for anything slower to thrive, and both have a power to back it up. Accuracy on their main Hurricane stab is a bit of a stretch in considering them broken as was last gen for Moltres, but there's no denying how troublesome both and what they mean to anything slower. Rotom-H being around means Moltres does get an additional check, but the meta has shifted to a point that you need one of very few specific Mons to indeed tank a hit against them, and not all of them are guaranteed based on the set.
     
  4. Scythe.

    Scythe. Active Member

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    Taking your points into account, we should be able to fit in Raichu pretty easily as it does access that same extendable moveset with actually better speed in 110 base, preventing it from forcibly speed tieing with Durant as it was the case w/ helio. I think what especially makes the latter good is rather the ability to freely switch into water-type moves as Scald by virtue of a super effective typing, and i would say moreso in UU where the main Scald includer of the tier (Suicune) usually dont carry any other kind of attacking move on its moveset, unlike in LU where alomomola has many options to struggle against it in knock off/toxic/mirror coat. Access to STAB Hyper Voice is also one of the biggest point of its viability in ORAS as it let heliolisk neutrally hit the bunch of electric resists currently running on the tier (druddigon-flygon-dragalge-camerupt-tangrowth) without necessarily the need of an HP/waste of coverage move.

    ~~~

    Looking at suspects.. well very good dicussion has been reached in Celebi's one as an interesting actual counter to it has just dropped; Mandibuzz. With its excellent defensive stats in 110/105/95 and access to dark-type STABed utility moves, the sturdy buzzard provides answers to a nice amount of many threatning stallbreakers. Its going to be a fairly interesting add to the tier by already filling the hazards control section, but also being the greatest stop to offensive psychic-types at the moment, especially for more defensive-oriented teams which are what most struggled against the NP Life Orb set, while easily beating 1v1 the bulky calm mind + heal bell variants with the combination of Taunt+Dark move, something bronzong failed to do. Note that it's also a v. potent Hoopa answer sans thunderbolt, like seriously with Mandibuzz in hand i ideally think stall/balance can afford a Reuniclus retest right now. However, it can easily fails to keep the most relevant Psychic of the tier in check; Meloetta as long as it carries Hyper Voice, despite being rather forsaken in non-choiced sets, its matchup is very unbiased vs. offensive CM Colbur Berry which is quite weird for defensive teams and easily one of its biggest con.

    It also really needs Brave Bird if you're carrying a more physically defensive spread, as physical mons in LU are ATM mostly filled with fighting-types such as Pangoro, Scrafty and Virizion which are all able to set-up theirselves, add to this the need of speed-creeping for Jolly SD Pangoro, a massively dangerous pokemon. On the other hand, Dark-/Flying- typing actually resists a very poor amount of special attackers outside of Psychic-types and say offensive Tangrowth, especially when considering the Stealth Rock weakness which really doesn't help at avoiding key 2hkoes from life orb-boosted sweepers such as Moltres and Noivern (two things i'll discuss on in another post), which is totally unlike the past P2, so yeah, huge strain on entry hazard control for the buzzard.

    Mandi still realistically has a decent matchup against any Stealth Rock includer in LU, though this will require quite a fuckton of special defense investment in order to not fall too quickly to Sheer Force LO Nidoqueen's Ice Beam, and even then you'll need to straight knock his life orb off after the Stealth Rock turn but this is very risky and you can be put in a position where you're being forced out by a teammate (Tyrantrum first comes in mind) as the SR are still set, which will minimize a lot Mandibuzz's pivot utilities mid-game as previously stated. However Taunt+Foul Play nicely 1v1's both Mega-Steels and this no matter what the spread, as well as Rhyperior given Mandibuzz carries Toxic and a little bit of defense investment.

    tl;dr: Overall Mandibuzz is a really solid defensive pivot, really good to keep some psychic-types wallbreakers in check and therefore easily fitting in balance-minded squads. It also can get to turn *extremely* annoying with its toxic staller set as it's, outside of Head Smash Tyrantrum - which is quite easy to cover - really hard to threaten it out in the first place, pretty much any SE move will fail to straight Ohko and even 2hko the hell of a wall it is, status could have been a really nice way to wrestle it in the long term but this thing carries Taunt, though it really dislikes scald burns so be aware of it. Very very big stretch in entry hazard control also as it is weak to Stealth Rocks, turning a lot of guaranteed 3hkoes in to 2hko ones, so another hazard remover would be better alongside it. Access to knock off really helps to get rid of commonly splashed LOs, and can even fit in some momentum machines thanks to U-turn.

    P.S. Unfortunately didn't have time to work on LU-customised spreads for it x_x It's quite late for me now but i'll most likely showcase one or two imports in my next post!
     
    Joeypals!! and NaCl like this.
  5. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Any possibilities of suspecting heat rock?
     
  6. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    would you like to expand on that?
     
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  7. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    With the ability to have a lot of sweepers such as Shiftry, Victreebell and the ability to use Choice Specs Moltres who 2hko literally everything, during 8 turns, having a cleaner such as Tyrantrum Scarf, it makes the tier a little bit unbalanced, in my opinion.

    On top of that, we have a lot of weather setter such as Sturdy Regirock, Uxie and I feel like it might be too much
     
  8. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Sorry for the lack of response, I was away for these last two weeks due to personal life things needing to be taken care of. One of the things I will say about sun is that it's pretty potent when done right, but it has downfalls as opposed to say rain, that make it pretty much a one shot run to work. The fire types don't have a speed boost like the Grass types, and the Grass types lack the raw power and the sweepers would really like getting that Growth boost, but their average defenses and defensive typing means most have to pick a very specific set up from the opposing team. You are basically dedicating 2 setter spots, 1-2 grass types, Moltres spot, other fire type/filler role. On paper extremely dangerous, in execution if you know how a sun team works, lot less dangerous based on the setter(s) they use, depending on how well prepared you are for a weather team. If it gets the set up, it can be extremely dangerous though, but that probably comes down to the fact Moltres under Sun is a killing machine with Fire Blast/Flamethrower and 1 Turn Solarbeam. Most everything else well, in my experience they can be moderately handled, with just casual effort. Seeing as birds and golems are just getting their HAs, we'll just have to see how those change their uses before suggesting their role support.

    Anyway we currently have a moltres suspect going on, so we'll focus on that first, and seeing as it would be factor into a reason why Heat Rock might be a bit unbalanced, we can revisit the idea after the suspect itself depending on where Moltres itself lands in the tier (banned or unbanned).
     
    Edna likes this.
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