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February/March ORAS NU Potential Suspects Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Draciel, Feb 1, 2016.

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  1. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Tier shifts:

    NU-> LU

    Chatot
    Electivire
    Sneasel
    Samurott
    Virizion
    Uxie

    LU-> NU

    Audino
    Vaporeon
    Gallade
    Chesnaught
    Ferroseed

    A bunch of interesting changes right there, with Offensive powerhouses like Virizion and Samurott leaving NU, along with the bulkiest Psychic-type in the tier, Uxie. Chatot and Electivire also rises to LU by usage, for unknown reasons.

    Among the drops, the most notable ones are definitely Chesnaught and Vaporeon: what did we do to deserve this. Both of them are incredibly bulky and will turn out to be metagame-defining mons for sure. Other than that, we got Audino (special wall and cleric), Gallade (offensive powerhouse) and Ferroseed (bulky hazard setter and mixed wall).

    All these tier shifts are bound to change the NU metagame, for better or worse that remains to be seen. Discuss!
     
    Joeypals!! likes this.
  2. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Okay, it's 6 days in and I can definitely say that Gallade is broken.

    In a tier saturated with Fighting types, Gallade stands out due to the neutrality to Psychic moves and amazing Special Defense. Both of these prevent the normal Psychic-type counters from effectively doing their jobs. The secondary Psychic-type also prevents Poison-type fighting checks from stopping Gallade.
    The few bulky Flying-types in NU (Pelipper, Scyther kinda, Xatu) can't all take a ton from the Psychic STAB move of choice (or in Xatu's case Knock Off / Shadow Sneak). The few things that aren't 2HKO'd by Gallade are generally incapable of actually stopping Gallade, either encouraging Gallade to just keep boosting or dying on the following turn without OHKOing Gallade. Shadow Sneak does a great deal to anything faster than Gallade, which makes revenge killing Gallade a gamble.

    The Bulk Up set is also incredibly powerful, taking advantage of Gallade's impressive ability to threaten the tier to improve the lower Defense. Not only does it make revenge killing Gallade much harder, but it also allows Gallade to last well past any of its checks.

    Random Calcs:
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Pelipper: 273-321 (84.5 - 99.3%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 235-278 (63 - 74.5%)
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 348-411 (93.2 - 110.1%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 217-256 (50.1 - 59.1%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 195-230 (62.3 - 73.4%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 335-395 (83.1 - 98%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 204 HP / 248+ Def Vaporeon: 538-633 (119 - 140%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 455-538 (119.7 - 141.5%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 292-344 (103.9 - 122.4%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 164-192 (49.2 - 57.6%)
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 239-282 (62.4 - 73.6%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 200-238 (62.5 - 74.3%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 276-325 (85.1 - 100.3%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 200-237 (65.7 - 77.9%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 333-394 (81.2 - 96%)
    0 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 128-152 (46.2 - 54.8%)


    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 146-172 (51.9 - 61.2%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mismagius: 364-429 (139.4 - 164.3%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mesprit: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jynx: 533-629 (196.6 - 232.1%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sawk: 153-181 (52.5 - 62.1%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 182-214 (67.1 - 78.9%)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 221-260 (66.3 - 78%)


    0 SpA Musharna Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 93-109 (33.5 - 39.3%)
    0 SpA Togetic Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 128-152 (46.2 - 54.8%)
    220 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 183-216 (66 - 77.9%)
    252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 222-262 (80.1 - 94.5%)
    0 SpA Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 150-176 (54.1 - 63.5%)
    252 SpA Mesprit Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 160-190 (57.7 - 68.5%)
    0 SpA Mesprit Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 127-151 (45.8 - 54.5%)
    0 SpA Claydol Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 66-78 (23.8 - 28.1%)
    0 SpA Xatu Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 84-99 (30.3 - 35.7%)
    0 SpA Xatu Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 118-139 (42.5 - 50.1%)
    0 SpA Spiritomb Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 144-170 (51.9 - 61.3%)

    So yeah, Gallade might have a check or two (Granbull and Tomb maybe), but it has the bulk to outlast both (no healing except RestTalk and Leftovers).

    This is all discounting sets like TrickBand, WoW Support, Dbond Luring, Stallbreaker (Taunt + WoW), etc that are all fairly threatening in their own right.
     
  3. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    I wouldn't say no to an immediate Gallade suspect, considering it's already centralizing the meta even though it has been NU for like 1 week. High attacking stat, powerful STABs and Knock Off, and access to Bulk up/Swords Dance make it arguably the best wallbreaker in the tier right now. Xdevo already went through possible sets and combinations and I don't have much to add to that. So yeah, Gallade suspect will be happening soon.

    Chesnaught is another potential suspect to me; it's already a dominating force in the metagame, and both it's defensive/support and offensive sets are equally deadly. Sub/Bdrum Salac Ches is nothing but a monster and 6-0's stall by itself; as it can easily set up with sub thank to it's typing and natural bulk. Defensive sets with Spikes/Leech seed/Drain punch is just as annoying and hard to take down, taking on most physical attackers bar Scyther and whittling them down with Leech seed or setting up spikes with ease. Overall I think this shouldn't be anywhere near NU, and definitely deserves a suspect.
     
  4. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Can we talk about vaporeon. It's been in the tier b4 (when we had milodic), but this time around it is insane. Even with Chesto and audino beating it and switching in easily, the bulk and the wishes it can pass with it are insane as is such splashable healing utility. Vaporeon is probably the best mon in the meta right now. Its clearly way better than lanturn even as a pivot or especialy offense (LO hydro pumps are strong). The team support it can add to any team is huge and it has great offensive presence. The tier is in flux rn with two suspects going on, but what do you guys think about how Vape fits in NU right now
     
    Haze Victory likes this.
  5. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I feel like Vaporeon is fine now that Ches and Gallade are gone.


    So, I'm going to bring up Mega Audino. Like I said like a few months ago, Mega Audino isn't something that breaks walls or will just 6-0 a bunch of teams. Mega Audino has such a low cost to use, its borderline impossible to OHKO, and a bunch of mons fail to even 2HKO with Super-effective STAB moves. Mega Audino is both incredibly hard to stop once it's gotten started, and hard to actually wear down due to Audino's Regenerator ability and Wish. Almost all of Audino's common checks / counters have trouble switching into play repeatedly (either have trouble with hazards, have no real healing access, or lose to Audino once below ~70% health). While the "if you wear down its counters, it wins" argument is normally a little fishy, Audino is so adept at never dying and wearing down checks. Since so few of Mega Audino's checks have actual healing, there isn't much that can be done to stop Mega Audino.

    Audino obviously isn't faultless. If you aren't running RestTalk, status tends to be an issue (well most Toxic). The few things that do stop Audino pretty much neuter it, bar passing wishes (or heal bells depending on the set). There are a few users of Taunt / Encore that can hinder Audino, though they're not terribly common moves in NU. There is a couple Pokemon that can 2HKO Audino, though only Esca and Mawile are reliably switching into Audino. Once Audino Megas, it is going to have a lot more trouble stopping being worn down (unless you're Rest), and before Mega, Audino has a pretty trash typing.

    For reference the main sets I'd consider to be the issue with Audino are as follows:

    CroDino:
    Audino (M) @ Audinite
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Calm Mind

    CM Dino:
    Audino (M) @ Audinite
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Wish
    - Protect / Heal Bell
    - Dazzling Gleam / Draining Kiss
    - Calm Mind

    Offensive Audino:
    Audino (M) @ Audinite
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Psychic
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Calm Mind


    The Defensive set (replace CM with Heal Bell on the CM Set) is perfectly functional and is a pretty fantastic glue for slower teams, but I wouldn't consider it broken in any sense.
    Calcs:
    228+ Atk Skuntank Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 138-164 (33.6 - 40%)
    252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 184-220 (44.8 - 53.6%)
    252+ Atk Escavalier Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 182-216 (44.3 - 52.6%)
    0 Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 152-182 (37 - 44.3%)
    0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 138-164 (33.6 - 40%)
    0 Atk Registeel Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 84-102 (20.4 - 24.8%)
    0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 170-204 (41.4 - 49.7%)
    0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 116-138 (28.2 - 33.6%)
    0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (53 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 66-78 (16 - 19%)
    0 Atk Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 92-110 (22.4 - 26.8%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 221-265 (53.9 - 64.6%)
    252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 211-249 (51.4 - 60.7%)
     
  6. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I can see why a Mega Audino suspect seems plausible due to their being no opportunity cost for running it, but I feel that the flaws you mentioned really do hinder its ability to sweep teams efficiently. Firstly, unless your running offensive Calm Mind (which I don't feel that its that good in the current metagame), your basically stuck with Fairy STAB to deal damage, while the other slots are usually saved for either Wish, Protect, and Heal Bell. This means that it gets hard walled by many Steel and Poison types such as Garbardor, Escavalier, Klingklang, and Weezing, usually relying on team support to get rid of these threats. Also, losing out on Regenerator when mega evolving can also be detrimental as it can get worn down rather quickly with hazards up and also that it does not have any immeditae recovery to work with. This basically means that it is often forced to not mega evolve to preserve that luxury of switching out while gaining recovery. Yes its bulky as f*** and can be dangerous after a couple of Calm Mind boosts, but it is nothing absurdly unbreakable and unstoppable that I fell you kinda exaggerated in your post.

    A suspect I would like to see instead rather is Escavalier. It has incredibly high 135 Atk with great typing and useful coverage options. Choice Band basically has very few switchins and Swords Dance is another viable option that I feel is underrated quite a bit. The main problem that I have with Escavalier is that it really is a low risk / high reward mon that can break through many defensive teams and allows the rest of your team to have an easier time sweeping. It really punishes switchins, and I feel forces the tier to always play aggressively just in case it has a chance to come in. I know there will be arguments saying "it has terrible speed" and "Fire types OHKO it easily", but then why was Mega Camerupt banned? I basically see the same scenario with Esca compared to Mega Rupt, and would like to see it suspected a.s.a.p.
     
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  7. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    "Standard" Garbodor doesn't beat Wish Protect Audino without crits / a timely poison and never missing. It fails to 2HKO Mega Audino, so Audino can just PP stall Gunk Shot and continue setting up on Garb. Garbodor straight up loses if it doesn't get lucky. Non-Taunt / Clear Smog Weezing loses to Mega Audino without crits, since it barely has healing and Sludge Bomb fails to 3HKO after a CM boost. Even with Clear Smog, Weezing gets worn down by repeated Dgleams, and can't really do much damage back. I suppose Pain Split exists, but Weezing already has troubles fitting all the moves it wants, and Clear Smog + PSplit leaves it without a way to stop a bunch of things it should.

    Esca and Klinklang are both good checks, but as I said they get worn down very easily. Klinklang is very preoccupied with attempting a sweep, so it's not going to stay healthy all game, especially with LO. Esca suffers from the same issues, especially since Ass Vest Esca is stuck doing blanket check duty.


    SD Esca really isn't that great in this meta. Without Ass Vest, it has a decent bit of trouble switching into play, and it's almost always going to be met with something that's going to OHKO it if it tries to set-up. Most of the things that Esca would like to switch into (Psychics) have started to run HP Fire, or have a way to escape play (U-turn). Esca gets worn down very fast if you try to play aggressively with it, and its reliance on prediction (since its two STAB moves have a lot of semi-common resists) means that you're going to have to switch a lot.

    Unlike Camerupt, Esca isn't immune to burns, and Steel / Bug is a much worse Offensive typing (though its a lot better as a defensive typing). Unlike Camerupt, Esca is reliant on Choice Band to break through walls, which means it /has/ to predict if it doesn't want to be walled and worn down. Unlike Camerupt, Esca isn't immune to a semi-common type, so its going to have trouble getting into play for free than Camerupt had.

    Esca is a pain to deal with for defensive teams, and I do agree that it has a low opportunity cost for how good it is. NU defensive already has a lot of very powerful attackers (Sawk, Magmortar, Zangoose) and Esca might be the tipping point for it. So I'm not against an Esca suspect (actually I was going to suggest it after Audino and Sand Rush retest), but it doesn't have all of the upsides that Camerupt used to be so good in NU, and I don't think it is a mon that has to be dealt with immediately (like Gallade).
     
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