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Suspect Discussion: Blissey (not banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by NananaBatman, Feb 4, 2016.

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  1. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Shoutouts Pokemonistan for the sick art

    Discuss the possibility of Blissey being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Blissey's impact on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it is capable of using, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether Blissey should be banned (or not) from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against Blissey in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    Users that are unsure about suspect posting are encouraged to check this guide out.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  2. trc

    trc Active Member

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    well, first of all i can definitely say i haven't played much po uu at all, but this thread i saw from the forums page and it was kind of curious so i went and had a look at the viability rankings and i have to say i'm confused. it looks like the pokemon in the tier are pretty much the same as on smogon uu + some pokemon which deal with blissey well, and blissey isn't broken in smogon uu. it is only in b rank on your rankings. this seems to have been spurred by a user named pokemonistan so i assume that he feels very strongly about the suspect and would like to respond to me!

    stall is a good strategy against newer players because they aren't as versed in the long-term thinking required to beat a stall team. against good players, stall is absolutely defeatable with good play unless you are bringing a very stall weak team. addressing pokemonistan here, if blissey + alomomola is difficult to deal with offensively, try things like pressuring the blissey (knock off on special attackers, volt switch with hazards up, pursuit, double switches etc), employing the use of lures such as mixed victini, electric types in general are great because they can continually spam volt switch against alomomola lacking mirror coat, using things like toxic spikes, phazing out mola's wish recipient.. people have been coming up with ways to beat stall for a long time, because it's been around for a long time. however, it's very rare for a pokemon to be too defensively potent that it is broken, and usually that's due to other supportive properties (such as musharna having cm pass). both of blissey and alomomola are easily setup on by pokemon with substitute due to their passivity, allowing the sub booster to heavily dent the stall team. i would recommend to pokemonistan to ladder a bit more and perhaps gain some more experience with the tier and playing pokemon as a whole. personally stall doesn't even look that good in uu anyway, consider building more balanced teams. all the noobs call stall broken, once you get a bit better you'll realise that isn't the case.

    i love nananabatman btw <3 (and am solely addressing pokemonistan here)
     
  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Honestly with previous experience in UU, that was last tiering cycle and not this new one, I can't say I'm too surprised, but am fairly surprised at this. Overall, Blissey is a fat ass blob that's meant to absorb Special hits, and annoy back with status or something equally annoying. Porygon2 and Snorlax are mons who can do something of a similar nature too. Of course the one thing that can make it absurd is that massive HP stat, and awesome 130 base special defense, there's obviously no way that any neutral Special Attacker should be able to get past it with general ease. That's the point of it as a special wall. However if you are trying to directly take down Blissey without boosting and just trying to purely All-Out Attacker it with LO or something, or a weak-ass specs user who is a specialist role ala a Jack of All Trades, then you are fighting Blissey wrong.

    Blissey is one of those Pokemon you have to use boosting, passively deal with, use Taunt, or lure out against Physical Attackers, or have a Physical sweeper in reserve. This isn't a special case, and there's several Pokemon in each tier that provides a similar enough role that, lol you can't just purely break through it by attacking with hits that are STAB or just super effective, you have to Boost or use Taunt/Encore to remove its options to get rid of it. Given UU just lost Alakazam (both an awesome Encore and Taunt user with Psyshock that can ease against Blissey) as well as Jirachi the master of Haxing everything thus making your time in UU easier. Losing a somewhat quasi-ok option in Metagross to OU too is a disappointment I guess as well.

    On a list of pros vs cons I see it as this:

    Pros:
    - Fat bulk (255 HP and 135 Sp.Def is impressive as hell)

    - For a special wall can set SR, is a cleric, can pass T-Wave or Toxic status for a team, can also Wish Support or Soft-Boiled self support.

    - Can choose several offensive options to help a team counter a specific threat type due to a useful movepool.

    - Mimics other wally Pokemon such as Cresselia, Suicune, Hippowdon, it requires actual strategy to work around, it's not impossible, but it does a hell of a job at what it does.

    - Natural Cure means stopping it via Toxic status or Burning it is a hard task.

    Cons:
    - Can't risk taking a Knock Off from anything, so something that surprise carries it can be a problem. Even if it can heal, taking excess hazard damage and not having Leftovers can be a burden to it in a long run.

    - While it can wall a vast amount of Special Attackers, a fair amount of them actually come with a momentum move like Volt Switch (and seeing as it's electric users, that means you have an immunity to Thunder Wave already in place), which gives you a set up into a physical or mixed attacker. Stall teams are prone to doing that to actual well built teams.

    - Seismic Toss is it's only real way of doing damage. Given it can use like Fire Blast to catch a Steel type or Ice Beam to catch multiple types off guard, it's not going to deal to much without investment unless it's against something with a half-assed defensive stats. That being said, it's safest damage comes from Seismic Toss, which can be good or bad.

    - The combo Pokemonistan mentioned is really has a bane in Taunt users which honestly there's many amazing ones still left, just as there are a lot of momentum switch style Pokemon. In a similar way various Substitute users also can make good use against the passiveness of a stall based core without any real offensive presence.

    - In a longer run, hazards will give trouble, given that while UU has some really awesome hazard control, there is equally enough pressure against Hazard removers depending on well someone builds a team. A hazard remover has to be considered very carefully for these teams, as many problems can rise up.

    - Becomes pretty useless if it's gets Tricked or Switcheroo'ed.

    Other things that I would say just can run it into the ground and give up free turns, that shouldn't be afford it:

    - Substitute Chandelure, tell me how Blissey would like having to deal with CM or some status, or even Taunt Chandelure. Nothing would like it except maybe Snorlax and a small handful or other Pokemon.

    - Electric users who have Volt Switch go into something highly and physical offensive. You might bring up having Alomomola or something like maybe Gligar, but their bulk for UU is just above average, especially against the things that can actually use SD or Bulk Up or other Attack boosting moves, you and have to hope it's against something that lacks a needed coverage move or item that removes status, or doesn't have substitute.

    - Taunt is a viable option on: Mega Aerodactyl, Mandibuzz, Crobat, Krookodile, Azelf, Whimsicott, Cobalion, "Tornadus" to an extent, and some lesser options. Somethings it's not entirely pretty on, but they actually turn out to be a nice safety option when you realize that it might let you have win vs some of the bulkier self healing lard mons in the tier or that try to set up (f**k you suicune).

    - Mega Absol is in the tier, of course you take it for your Mega option, but it wins and can set up, against this particular set up.

    - Mons like Toxicroak, Curse Snorlax, Doublade, etc, are capable of set up and either outright threaten Blissey, don't care about the Para status because of set up or protects from unfavorable Burn, and can proceed to be useful in that regard, and you have to rely on getting your own passive luck to win out.

    You don't use a LO Special Attacker that's liable to get hurt by status or has weak enough defenses to be killed by an attack to get passed a special wall. That's not how this game works. You use strategy, use a physical attacker to do so, or use a special attacker that doesn't care about the status that can work around it, or just ya know use Taunt. That's generally a really good way of doing so. I don't use Porygon-Z to beat a Porygon2 knowing I'm liable to get T-Waved, para turns, and killed after a recover if it comes in on an attack or NP turn. If you are just trying to run 6 offensive mons with all offensive attacks or balance without any consideration for how to beat the fattest walls because UU has them all, I'd more or less question the teambuilding. These things have to be seriously taken into consideration when teambuilding, and they can't be overlooked just because people just want to try and smash things and not think of the repercussions of it.

    TL;DR - Honestly I think the options are down in the tier, probably even more so since Hax-Jirachi isn't there to annoy people's team building with multiple Pokemon that might have to be just for the luck that works against it. Losing Zam does hurt, but I'm going to say that it looks like there is a bit more room to work with on building new teams in the new meta, and Blissey while annoying like Cress and some others, are things you can't overlook because a set can easily have a win condition if you don't play right, because you can't break it or let something die off easily. Working with the previous cycle, Blissey is a pain, but there are multiple ways around it that don't require giving up too much, you just have to actually adjust a Pokemon set to actually beat Pokemon like Blissey or walls in general, if overlooked, of course you will have a hard time.
     
  4. Pokemonistan

    Pokemonistan Active Member

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    Okay, I'll try to be as respectful as possible.
    First off, Smogon UU doesn't appear to be so different on paper, but in terms of dealing with Blissey, it also has Mamoswine, Reuniclus and Gyarados. The former and the latter shouldn't arguably even be there, particularly the former, but I guess it's none of my business and I couldn't honestly care less about it right now. If you'd play PO UU, you'd know that these Pokémon would have made a significant impact on the metagame and Smogon's UU can never be the same as ours because of this. So if anything, it's more like "Smogon UU minus some dumb Pokémon that can deal with Blissey well, but aren't in the tier for good reason," contrary to your view at this. The viability rankings have been dead for many months, so I don't feel the need to address that. Also no, I'm sorry to break it to you but a few prominent PO UU players and I (including your favourite, NananaBatman) agree on the issue of Blissey on how ridiculous it is to singlehandedly wall all unboosted and even specs special attackers regardless of their type matchups. It's only common sense to assume that the UU Council is in some degree of agreement when the suspect is put up without any kind of counter argument, or any sign of ambiguity.

    Yeah, I know it's hard for lower ladder trash like me to know my ABCs. Help's always welcome and appreciated. I can see where this is about to go.

    We all saw this was coming. Note to self, use the all special attackers with Knock Off, the extensive list includes Whimsicott and nothingness. Moving on:
    all these OHKOs, holy shit
    252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 330-388 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 329-387 (46 - 54.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Those Volt Switchers better get running because they aren't doing shit while Blissey's alive anyway. Also, thanks for letting me know that hazards and double switches are really helpful against stall, I'm still learning more and more, I'm sure this post has even more that would benefit newbies like me! Imagining and ideal situation is fairly easy, but what if the Rocks end up being on your side? You just Defog, that's what you do! And guess what, all you have to do is let your Defog Salamence, Mega Aerodactyl, Crobat etc get paralysed! Simple as that, these guys just need to get better. Phaze out the Wish recepient, bluff a typical Scarf Tini which is in many ways is more beneficial to most play styles and use a special one, keep using Toxic on a stall core with a Natural Cure cleric and use electric types like Mega Manectric, Rotom-C/H, Heliolisk, Raikou and Mega Ampharos which can destroy Blissey on any given day. It's not a tall task, especially when the stall user has 4 other Pokémon to use too, most of them being physical walls since Blissey handles the special side of the spectrum with a lot of support while Thunder Waving every set up sweeper in its way, with the exception of Raikou and Sub CM Chandelure. Raikou can set up on it too! Here, just take a quick look:

    +4 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 312-367 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Raikou: 100-100 (31 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Also, run TSpikes if you want to beat AloBliss, everyone! It's the most reliable way of dealing with these pesky walls for all play styles. All these things are easiest to pull off for Offense, particularly HO users, since they're known for running Toxic on random Pokémon, phazers and excessive hazard users.

    This is the very problem that the players have. Of course, every wall can be broken past by certain wallbreakers and set up users, but you have to factor in some things; how much of the meta it is walling, how many Pokémon there are that can actually break it and the viability and usage of the Pokémon that do so and how they do after they get their kill. Blissey walls every non-boosted special attacker and specs user without any help or support, regardless of the type matchup (I'll repeat it as many times as I have to), there are even some very popular physical attackers that fail to OHKO Blissey which can prove to be crucial at certain stages.

    252 Atk Krookodile Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 442-520 (61.9 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 554-654 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Not that it has to stay in on any of these, I'm just making a point about how bulky this thing is. To add on, if Celestial Phantom can mention offensive Blissey (I'll get to that later in the post), I might as well throw in the possibility of Counter Blissey here. Now for the things that break it. It doesn't need to stay in on many physical attackers (don't get me wrong though, it can take on some physical attackers like Scarf Krook, but since my problem is with Blissey walling the special side of the meta, I'll focus on that), while for the special side, there's NP Azelf, NP Infernape, NP Lucario, NP Porygon-Z and Sub CM Chandelure. First off, the sole fact that you need to set up only to break it demonstrates how dominant and unhealthy this thing is. Azelf, Infernape, Lucario and Porygon-Z would never want to get paralysed, which in this case is pretty much inevitable, making them useless for the rest of the game even if they manage to kill Blissey. Sub CM Chandy is the only thing I feel can take it on very reliably. As for the usage, NP Luke is barely used since the physical variant is usually superior and can hit Espeed before Entei. NP Infernape is close to nonexistent, since the mixed variant is more useful overall. Porygon-Z has stable usage, but is not often used to its maximum potential. As for Azelf, its usage doesn't do justice to it, but it's definitely one of the biggest threats in the tier. Anyway, 4/5 of these Pokémon cannot be effective after beating Blissey (should that ever be the case). Only because Mega Gardevoir and Clefable can kill Giratina doesn't mean that it should drop to OU, that's messed up. To put it shortly, I strongly believe that walls do deserve bans if they're stopping too much and that we need to get out of this mindset that walls cannot possibly be broken. Blissey allows the most lazy teambuilding techniques to work out perfectly and is just too unhealthy for the tier to have it in right now.

    This is going to be fun. Just so you know, I've been battling competitively for 5 years and have just probably got the highest number of battles on the UU ladder with all my laddering alts combined. I think I've got at least some experience to have an opinion that is worth being replied to with some respect. Furthermore, it's not just the number of battles, although the ladder right now doesn't matter much anymore but since you've brought experience up, only a little over a week back, I had 7 alts in the top 20, 5 of them being in the top 10. They've decayed now due to me not having much time in the past week, but I can assure you that many people here were witness to that. If there's anyone who needs to actually play the tier to have an opinion around it, unapologetically, it is you. I already mentioned why Smogon UU is not the same as PO UU, so I'm not going to repeat myself. Though, equating Smogon UU with PO UU weakened your side of the argument and I honestly don't even expect you to know the tier differences after reading your post. I'm not the shit, but I'm not the trash either, so quit treating me like that. Learn to show some respect or actually bother to ask someone who might know, before addressing someone in a really degrading manner. Or maybe... just maybe... try logging onto PO and see how things work for yourself? I'm sincerely thankful for your respectful approach to my opinion and I hope that you have a very nice day.

    Sorry to disappoint again, he doesn't like Blissey either for all I know.


    Moving onto Celestial Phantom.
    Not sure what you meant by weak ass, but okay.

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Cresselia: 234-276 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 220-260 (52 - 61.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 180-214 (50 - 59.4%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    ** - Similar role, but not quite the same, the calcs above show how all these walls are broken past by STAB alone.

    This is probably as strong a specs user can get. Just to enhance your broad view of competitive battling, I'll tell you that these specs and all out LO attackers are meant to break walls. If there's something that gives zero shits about it while everything has serious trouble with them, you know something's wrong. Anyway, those are all the common go-to mons when you see a special attacker, and you can see that how they're struggling to avoid 2HKOes. On the contrary, there's Blissey:

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 226-268 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    First off, Tornadus (not even viable, straight off), Mega Aerodactyl (Defog and Hone Claws variants are infinitely more effective, much more flexible and less situational) Krookodile (non Band/Scarf should have Dual Stab with Rocks and Pursuit rather than Taunt)and Cobalion (Rocks + SD or SD + 3 attacks is simply superior and again, less situational) are better off without Taunt. Even if we consider all four of them, they're not even a single one of them is doing anything to AloBliss apart from getting worn down by Blissey's Seismic Toss or Alomomola's Scald (possibly ending with a burn) and Rocky Helmet (in the case of Cobalion) depending what side of the attacking spectrum the Pokémon is from. If you're running Taunt on Azelf, I don't assume that you're running an NP set on it, if so, I feel sorry for you. Either ways, Taunt Azelf can't break the core either. Whimsicott can't break Blissey either, making this whole suggestion completely worthless. If your "lesser options" make Tornadus look like it's worth mentioning, forget them because they're probably going to make it look more like a joke. If anything, Taunt at a crucial time would simply mean that the wall would switch out and come in later in a more favourable situation, pretty much delaying the inevitable. Nobody is going to let you Taunt, go out into your physical attacker, kill Blissey and then send out Alomomola. If you feel that's going to happen or if it's that simple, try playing UU once for a change rather than making dumb assumptions that you're simply imagining in an ideal situation. As for Substitute users mmm, let's count. First it's Chandelure, second's Cobalion, third's Raikou, the fourth's Mega Sceptile. These are all that can be found in the top 45 of the usage stats, go see for yourself. Cobalion doesn't generally do well against stall teams but can deal damage to Blissey without OHKOing it. Blissey doesn't typically need to stay in on any physical attacker since it's got immense support at the back considering it's a stall team that you're facing. Plus, bringing up physical fighting types to beat Blissey adds nothing to the discussion, so I'll drop this one here. Raikou gets 4HKOed by Blissey after Lefties, and +4 Raikou barely hits at 50%. I'll save you the trouble of scrolling up to search for the calc in my response to the other respectable user:

    +4 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 312-367 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Raikou: 100-100 (31 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Mega Sceptile doesn't do bull to Blissey and just dies to Seismic Toss. Chandelure again, is the only Pokémon that can make its way through this, although phazers can make it harder for it, paired with hazards, both of which are pretty much a staple on all stall teams to counter set up play. Regardless of that, it's the best thing to break the AloBliss core with.

    Yes, hazards wear down the Regenerator Alomomola really well, I am well aware of that. Blissey can be worn down with hazards but it's not like it doesn't get any opportunities to regain its health with a recovery move. UU indeed does have amazing hazard control, and guess which play style benefits the most from hazards and clears them most reliably? Stall. Also, thanks for reinforcing my ABCs again in the rest of the quoted part.

    I sure hope this wasn't a serious suggestion, I'm not even going to waste my time on this.

    Again, I really hope this wasn't a serious suggestion. Toxicroak and Doublade definitely do care about burns, the former has to be more careful of catching paralysis though. Toxicroak does just fine against AloBliss, but in no way is it indifferent of paralysis and burns. A paralysis is pretty much inevitable for Toxicroak if Blissey is at full health because it does not get OHKOed.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 549-650 (76.8 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Also, bringing up Fighting types to beat Blissey is yet again counterproductive and is not helping anything. This can be said for anything that exists.

    ?
    You're facing stall and you don't expect them to have Volt Blockers? Mega Steelix, though not used so much, is an excellent option for UU stall. Swampert and Mega Swampert are also very useful and pretty much shit on every Volt Switch user barring Rotom-C. Gligar's bulk is just above average? I know it's quite obvious by now that you don't play the tier, but this? It is one of the very few Pokémon which can take Entei's STABs neutrally below 50%, are you nuts? I already listed all the Substitute users and almost all of them barring Sub CM Chandelure are ineffective.

    You really don't know that a stall team has 4 other Pokémon including a Mega, right? And your Trick is pretty useless if it's tricking a mega switching in.

    a b c d e f g,
    h i j k l m n o p,
    q r s,
    t u v,
    w x,
    y and z.

    I'm pretty sure I have proven my point above about being "experienced" and successful at the same time (on this dumb ladder at least, but hey, what else is there to it?) while replying to the very respectful and respectable Trc. Anyway, taking things literally here, if someone cannot run 6 offensive Pokémon that come together in good synergy, only because they have to break Blissey (basically Hyper Offense) shows that a play style is being made ineffective and less viable because of it. Therefore, it is unhealthy for the metagame. I am familiar with the things that are required to be taken into consideration, but am afraid that you're just speaking based off of your outdated past experiences and assumptions, which are clearly being reflected from your post. Please play the tier before posting.



    tl;dr Get over this dumb, "walls should not be banned because they possibly can't be broken" mentality. Every Pokémon has its weakness and its strengths. Magnifying the minor weaknesses does not allow you to overlook its unparalleled strengths. Being able to take any kind of hit from any special "wallbreaker", along with the physical bulk to live heavy hits like Superpower from non-Banded Krook, Close Combat from Cobalion, LO Adamant Drain Punch from Toxicroak is proof of how adversely this thing is effecting the UU meta. While it does get shat on by Sub CM Chandelure, most other set up sweepers get paralysed before they can attempt to sweep, making them useless for the rest of the game. Most stall teams can carry Pokémon like Alomomola (which works very well with Blissey), Mandibuzz (which can have Taunt and Toxic to deal with Suicune and possibly even Chandelure), a bulky Volt Blocker to prevent annoying pivots etc, and Blissey is a Godsend to these teams for the reasons stated above. Blissey's presence causes immense pressure on HO users and often forces them to make plays which can easily backfire and prove to be costly if gone wrong. Not to mention that it's restricting teambuilding as well. Imagining ideal situations is not the solution to the problems it is causing and how lazy teambuilding has become because of it. I firmly believe that Blissey must be banned.

    I'm not going to reply to this thread anymore, I've said all there is to say. No point in arguing with people who refuse to listen to reason and start disrespecting you for no reason.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2016
  5. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Obviously reading comprehension or at least English reading skills aren't the best here, but I'll provide at least my half of arguments sake.

    Um hi, you don't use a Cresselia or Florges to actually be an overall Special Wall, you use it as a Physical Wall with Special bulk. They aren't meant to take certain Specs, or Special set up Pokemon without being able to set up say Calm Mind before hand, and have a chance to heal. If you use them to tank a special hit, it has to be an average special hit, you use them for physical walls. The damage to Mandibuzz and Umbreon are both pretty impressive, it does go and show that Blissey is a better fatter Special wall in general. All Out LO attackers are meant to be able to cover as many general threats as possible to narrow a team's range, NOT BREAK A WALL. Specs users are generally made that you want them to be able to break walls when possible, but either typings or coverage moves means there are general fat things that can tank them and ruin your want of breaking specific walls just by existing.

    There are specifics for certain sets I will relent that certain Pokemon should be running, but the options exist, and they actually exist for a very good reason, for an actual helpful reason. Tornadus is actually viable, it's not my fault that people on this ladder don't actually use a versatile offensive Pokemon with a very good ability. Sure, it has some troubles hitting if you use the special set, but it can be a high ass pain for certain teambuilds. Mega Aerodactyl can run Taunt as a stallbreaker, it's actually fairly good in that regard. I don't know if you have ever worked with such a set, but Aero can make a pretty decent run at that job. It also stops set up Pokemon, recovery moves, and the like. Krookodile and Cobalion both can be effective with the move, as if you include it on a set, that means you want it to be able to stop something specific that can be harmful to the team.

    0 Atk Tornadus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 352-416 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Tornadus Hurricane vs. 232 HP / 24 SpD Alomomola: 313-369 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Tornadus Hurricane vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 199-235 (39.7 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Pending what Alo set UU might use for some stall, I'd assume you would want to be able to tank some extra Physical stuff for Blissey, but lol Tornadus can win vs AloBliss with a Mixed set. Taunt stops the Wish/SB, though regenerator Alo can live, but if they come in thinking to take a certain move, Tornadus makes for a useful stop, bonus points for it having knock off to hinder these Pokemon.

    As for substitute users, I've stopped trusting the statistics page a long time ago except to see for people using certain things. People don't even try to use good sets or they are all the spammable same ones, and don't even try to counter play certain Pokemon. There are more there than just the ones you might find people trying to use that are actually useful.


    Mega Absol is actually a suggestion. It can be a very threatening mon, especially to stall based or passive teams. Magic Bounce means you can't passively status it, SD means it'll be able to hurt things especially with use of Knock Off, and if your way of "dealing with it" comes down to ha I can burn it with Alo Scald, well Scald isn't a guaranteed burn, so joke can easily be on you when it doesn't happen. It has it's faults, but it's actually a solid choice based on team builds in UU.

    You obviously didn't get the gist of what I meant by that phrasing. What's burning Toxicroak? Alo's Scald isn't touching Toxicroak, it has Dry Skin! It sets up in the face of AloBliss and can be threatening to various Defensive mons with SD. It does have to be wary of T-Wave, but that's why you would use Alomomola to set up on. You can use Doublade to catch paralysis, thus any attempt to burn via Alomomola Scald is pretty ineffective. As it can set up or make for damaging something, hell it could probably set up to +6 in that regards depending on what the full stall teams could be. It's not like you go and set up in their face like an idiot risking the status' you go and set up on what you know you can set up on.


    Heliolisk has Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Surf access. Rotom-C as you mentioned has Leaf Storm for the grounds. Mega Ampharos has FOCUS BLAST for M-Lix, and well Dragon Pulse is also a strong move for non resists. The only blocker they might have a general problem hurting is Swampert, as its bulk can make anything a longer battle without a grass move or a powerful Sp.Att like Mega Ampharos. Gligar's bulk is just pretty good for tanking physical hits, won't call it phenomenal because it isn't. Especially with how passive it can be so your ability to tank is all you have with it. I do play UU to a fair extent, I play all the main tiers except ubers honestly just to get battles, and playing and having some 1300 points with shitty teams before the ladder went and reset a small while ago means I don't expect too much from people's playstyles. Especially since the only regular player that thwarts me using shitty teams to get by is our gracious tier leader @NananaBatman . There are more than just the ones you mentioned. I could list the ones you missed, didn't mention, probably haven't used...but then again I'm actually not feeling it now, but that's because I like to play spiteful. But the point of this is that you can use a Volt Switch user to get out of an incoming Blissey which generally you can use to tank the electric hits easy, and if they have a Volt Blocker, Volt Switch users have a way around most of them, and can be incredibly threatening to them.



    I mean I did play UU for November, December, and January. Obviously you just never saw me, as our TL and several others can actually attest that I have. Have I had much of a chance to play since the start of the new cycle just 5 days ago? No, I actually haven't had a shot, but we lost 1 Pokemon that was a major influence on teambuilding (Jirachi), a pokemon that was an all around threat to many playstyles (Zam), and a mon we didn't care about (metagross). We gained Seismitoad which is more of an eh kind of thing to me, useful SR user, but sometimes meh bulk, and Manectric (with mega) which is another powerful Volt User who surprise surprise can beat something like Gligar and Mega Steelix! Oh my the Volt Blockers are never gonna Volt!
     
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  6. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Ok so the only thing florges really does wall when it comes to physical attackers are some Dragons (if they don't have iron tail) ; it fails to properly wall most fightning types. Florges is a special wall, even tho people try to make it a mixed one. Also this does nothing to prove Blissey is broken/not broken (although you do recognize that it is ridiculously bulky on the special side, ayy)

    Blissey has no business staying in on Cobalion/Aerodactyl/Krookodile anyway, therefore it doesn't really give a shit if they have taunt. The only way it'll ever get taunted is if it stays in. The actual thing that happens in cobalion's case is you bring your fightning type in on the fightning weak mon, and at that point blissey either heals/bells, or it t-waves you (which is pretty crippling because speed is cobalion's biggest asset). Blissey doesn't care if you taunt the next turn, because by then it'll be back in its pokeball.

    Mega Absol is 1 of those mons that threatens blissey and can possibly set up on the forced switch, but if you're facing stall, chances are your opponent has something to take care of absol. Walling Mega Absol isn't Blissey's job. Stall =/= AloBliss.

    Yes, we know, Toxicroak beats AloBliss. No1 is surprised that Blissey loses to another fightning type. Also, even if doublade becomes immune to burns thanks to a para, it's still not a threat to a stall team and isn't going to break shit anytime soon.


    Yes, Blissey tends to get volt switched on. In fact, evry non-ground type pokemon (barring immunities) suffer the same fate. Getting voltturned on doesn't take away that its a fantastic special wall and that it's walling a huge portion of the meta by itself. Also lol @ "I could list shit but I won't".
     
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  7. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    lol jesus christ when did everyone start writing as much as finch

    Let me start off by saying that I think this suspect is rather absurd and that Blissey is nowhere near broken. I realize that Defensive Pokemon can be broken, but I cannot for the life of me think of any arguments why Blissey should be banned. The main argument appears to be that Blissey walls a lot of Special Attackers, but that's what it's been doing since GSC without causing any problems.

    Pokemonistan said a lot of things in his post, but when he was talking about how Blissey beats all Special Attackers, he didn't mention some of the prime ways that Blissey gets beaten like Trick or getting set up upon. Sure, certain Special Attackers like Mega Sceptile get walled all day by Blissey, but that's only natural. If Blissey couldn't beat those Special attackers that don't have boosting moves or recovery or Taunt/Trick, it'd have absolutely no niche. If you compare the lists of Special Attackers Blissey can beat vs those that beat or take advantage of it, you'll see that the latter isn't small at all, despite the arguments of the pro-ban side. A small sample: CM Florges, Suicune, Taunt or Superpower Hydreigon, Chandelure, CM Cresselia (doesn't even need Sub as apparently Blissey runs Twave), NP Infernape (which is definitely better than the hot garbage that is Mixed Infernape), Superpower Nidoking, SubRoost Kyurem or Specs Focus Blast Kyurem, SubSeed Shaymin or just get some drops, Vaporeon and Tentacruel depending on how you define "taking advantage of". Those are 11 Special Attackers that are A- or higher that don't lose to Blissey.

    There's one more thing I want to note and that's how Paralyzing a mon isn't actually killing it like your post implies at times. Especially against stall teams (the only teams you should see Blissey on), whether a mon is para'd or not doesn't really matter much. It might even be a good thing as it means you can't get Burned or Toxiced for some mons.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  8. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I strongly agree that mons can be broken just in terms of ability to take hits and outlast their checks.

    Unlike chansey, blissey gets 2hkoed by any physical attacker. The amount of offensive sweepers that are viable in UU is huge and arguing that a core (bliss/alo) is broken just means that there is some sort of problem with your build. As we have seen with @ThatMushroom showing up in the suspects thread, the tier is very offensive right now. Common attackers such as Entei, Beedrill, Chandy, Mence, Tini and Suicune can cause lots of problems for any slower team that fails to keep up offensive pressure.

    While Bliss does invalidate some attackers while it is alive, the same can be said about alo or MAgg or hippo. The problem is that these guys offer very little else, especially late in games with less team support. They pigeon hole you into one sort of team to cover up big weaknesses. While that makes them centralizing, in the context of the tier it is not to an unhealthy or unreasonable degree.
     
  9. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I think a point of Zorodark's that I want to emphasize is that Blissey's passive nature makes it really only useful on Stall teams. Hyper offense wants nothing to do with it for obvious reasons, and even more balanced teams generally prefer other Pokemon. Umbreon, Florges, and Vaporeon all can do its job as a cleric without being as passive, same goes for Hippo, Swampert, Mega Aggron, Forretress, and Empoleon for being defensive SR users, and all of the above and more like Mandibuzz, Cress, and P2 can fulfill the function of general wall/bulky pivot. And all of these can do it while still having a solid offensive presence and not being easily subjected to being Tricked/set up on/taunted, ect and made useless. It does have kind of a niche in being the best cleric that can also use SR, but that means you have to forgo either its sole attack, part of its cleric package, reliable recovery, or status.

    But yeah, so far I'm missing any argument that isn't just "it absorbs special attacks really well". Goodra, Dragalge, Regice, and Arcticuno all absorb special attacks really well too and all of them IIRC have better physical bulk than Blissey.
     
  10. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Zorodark's post was good. Unfortunately, yours is not. Blissey being only viable on stall doesn't mean it's broken/not broken. We're suspecting a wall here, its offensive presence is currently not on trial.

    You really compared Blissey to Goodra, Dragalge, Regice and Articuno. What made you think this comparison was worth doing? None of them comes close to Blissey's special walling abilities. The last two are also very much outclassed in uu. Don't compare stuff for the sake of comparing stuff.
     
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  11. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    My point in saying it's not viable outside stall is to show just how much of a limitation its passivity is. To put it simply, walls (in the purest sense of the word) aren't really good at anything except PP stalling. They have to actually be able to DO something that can pressure the opponent or mess with their strategy. It's for that reason that Regice and Articuno and other purely defensive Pokemon like Bastiodon or Probopass see so little use even in lower tiers: sure they've got nice bulk but there isn't much they can do to threaten you.

    It just so happens that what Blissey does ISN'T threatening to a relatively large portion of what it needs to wall. Many of the best special attackers in the tier tend to run Sub and/or Rest-based sets, neither of which are threatened by anything it can do, especially if their HP is 401 or greater. Taunt users and trick users can also rejoice as they can just as easily shut Blissey down with little to no effort. And plenty of special attackers are also "usually" ok with dealing with it, in other words they don't really mind fighting it unless it has specific move X. This is made worse for Blissey by the fact that most Blissey sets are more of clerics than straight up walls, giving it a nice healthy dose of 4MSS.

    My overall point is that, despite how amazing its special bulk is, the fact that it is so passive allows for a reasonable number of special attackers to have not unorthodox ways of taking it down. Combine this with its complete lack of ubiquity and the fact that most semi-powerful physical attackers can easily lay waste to it, and I find it extremely hard to consider it broken. It is by no means a bad Pokemon and there are several niches it can fill pretty well, but overall it is not even close to something the tier can't handle.
     
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  12. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Didn't want to post as my first reaction was 'lol Blissey suspect this is absurd'

    However, after reading the comments I guess I can see why this is suspected, though not agreing with everything said.

    Blissey is that one pokemon you can hardly fit in Balanced, because it's outclassed by Vap, Umb, Florges and to an extent Aromatisse. Usually the only offensive presence it has is either Toxic or Seismic toss ( Twave is bad you don't need to gain speed when using stall ), which lead to something everyone agrees on: you should only use Blissey on stall archetype.

    Sadly, Blissey has its share of flaws, it's a set up bait to anything with 404 hp ( sub Kyurem who can easily pp stall with pressure, sub seed min) so it's not guarenteed to win vs most spe attackers ( actually most of them can easily beat it )

    Getting to the AloBliss core that seems to worry some of you. It's true the core is very fat, hard to take down without status or set up sweepers, or even Mixed attackers ( Mixape with Grass Knot and CC is still a great mon I dunno who says it's bad ).

    But there are some set up mons that ruin your core in: Sub SD Cobalion, Sub Bulk Up/Swords Dance Toxicroak, Virizion ( its typing helps a lot in UU). To go even farther, a core like CB Guts Heracross+ Wish Florges literally smashes alobliss if Hera gets para/toxiced/scald burned.

    I truely believe UU has a lot of options to deal with both of them ( Taunt is literally taking down AloBliss) and Knock off cripples way too much that fat core and the hazard game in UU can be easily controlled with taunt as well.

    In my opinion Blissey is fine in UU and suffers of being pressured way too easily. It can only switch on special attackers without set up, and can never switch into any of the fighting mon who therefore can set up freely. To rejoin Zorodark's post, a lot of special attackers can get through it by mixing their spread, running taunt or even sub split or something in the kind and lastly Trick.

    I do believe it should remain in UU
     
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  13. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    The only notable sub users are chandy and kyurem, whereas the only rest user is Suicune. That's not a very big amount. There's other stuff like subseed shaymin, but there's a reason they aren't used that much (also subseed min doesn't really threaten blissey at all, it can literally pp stall min out of seeds if need be). Taunt Hydreigon (most common special taunter) doesn't accomplish much since all it does is waste its roost PPs to Seismic toss. Trick messes any wall ever, let's not spin it into a weakness, that's kinda silly. Stoss is well enough to beat a vast majority of the tier's special attackers 1 on 1.

    You said yourself that Blissey should only be used on stall, and yet your post focuses almost entirely on AloBliss. Blissey has other teammates.
    The "it can only switch into special sweepers without set up" part of your argument is also untrue. Try setting up with Raikou vs Blissey and tell me how it goes.
    Heck, even p-z struggles to get past it.

    Realtalk have most Pro Ban posters ever faced proper stall?
     
  14. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    I didn't focused only on Alobliss, I just mentioned how that core is easily destroyed in UU, since it seemed to be worrying some people.

    I did face some Stall teams, and not gonna lie, there are a lot of stallbreakers that completely makes this playstyle not that viable. Also, why would anyone set up with Raikou when there is a Blissey? If it is CM volt switch just Volt switch to a Fighting threat and here is your kill. You saying it has partners etc etc just negates your own argument, I mean Blissey needs a LOT of support in order to work effectively ( which it nearly doesn't in the current meta). If one cannot build a team with Stallbreaker than no wonder he loses to stall, the same can be say about Chansey in OU, though nobody thing it's even suspect worthy for one reason: these pokemons are way too passive and allow the opponent to set up freely. I mean, the number of time I switched into Hera so I get statused and in the back I can just use Knock Off/CC to get a kill, that is only because Blissey can't have more offensive presence.

    Saying that Blissey when it is only a question of using a better team is kinda lame, you literally have more than half the tier that can benefit of Blissey being in the opposing side, and they truly do. In my experience, and i'm not a random player I play a lot UU since BW, I can say that Blissey is nowhere of being broken. Sure, it makes you think twice before building a team ( anw playing 6 special attackers seems like a shit strategy) and with the proper plays you can easily get through it without getting crippled that much
     
  15. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Let's not get carried away here

    Stall not viable huh. We'll get to that later.

    "Here is your kill". This is how we get kills now? Volt Switch+Fightning type. Noted.
    Do you really expect Blissey to stand up to uu's fightning types? This isn't Blissey vs The World, it's a stall team, everything has its purpose.

    Well if your opponent's stall loses something everytime Cb Hera comes in, they're clearly using shitty stall. No wonder you think stall is not viable.

    Your BW UU experience is irrelevant here (also Blissey was banned from that tier, haha!).

    Let's not make false assumptions guys. Both sides have made good points so far, let's try and keep the quality of the posts up.
     
  16. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I'm not really sure what the argument against Blissey is here; I've heard "Blissey makes stall unbalanced," "Blissey + Alo is broken," and "Blissey walls all special attackers." The former is nearly impossible to prove in discussion, as any discussion would just end in "the other 5 members." I'm fairly confident the ladder being as offensive as it is supplies pretty demonstrable evidence against the idea that Bliss Stall is broken. I do understand that Blissey + 5 Physical Walls is a very lazy way to make a decent team, but there is a decent list of things that can easily defeat that archetype.

    The 3rd of the arguments is much closer to something that's provable. Even if the "all" part is an exaggeration (it better be), going through the UU viability list gives a fairly substantial list of special (and mixed) attackers that Blissey cannot beat; Mixed Victini, CM Florges, CM Cune, Superpower / Taunt Hydreigon, Trick / Sub Lure, Cm Cress, NP or Mix Ape, Mixed Aboma, SubSeed Min / getting SpDef drops, Superpower Nidoking, Lucario, various Kyurem sets, Whimsicott, NP Celebi, Toxicroak, Trick Hoopa, Mixed / Seed Tangrowth, Tspikes Drag arguably, various Trick Rotom formes, Mixed Kingdra, CM Slowking, NP Azelf, Seed Mega Scept, Virizion, Cofag, and Mismagius. The mons in that list are of various usability (Mismag is gr8 I swear), but they're all capable of beating Blissey in some way (forcing it out, threatening a KO, or setting-up on it, stalling it out) and are all things that could at least be considered Special Attackers. Therefore, saying that Blissey beats "all" special attackers is untrue, even if used exaggeratory fashion.

    Blissey + Alo being broken is pretty silly. There are a bunch of Pokemon, especially Heracross, that take advantage of that core. Both a huge list of Fighting-types and a lot of the list above beat the combination.
     
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  17. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Time to end this,

    After reviewing the arguments, the UU council has decided that Blissey will remain in UU. See the posts for the reasons behind it, they sum it up well.
     
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