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[ORAS] Balanced Hackmons General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by TraceofLife, Feb 5, 2016.

  1. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    This thread is for discussing all things in Balanced Hackmons. Post sets you have found interesting, bring up potential suspects, and other discussion. Enjoy!



    Banned Moves/Abilities:
    • OHKO moves
    • Wonder Guard
    • Huge Power
    • Pure Power
    • Shadow Tag
    • Arena Trap
    • Parental Bond
    • Evasion Moves
    • Assist
    • Chatter
    • 1 -ate ability per team (Aerilate, Pixilate, etc)
    Banned Pokemon:
    • Primal Groudon
    • Primal Kyogre

    Clauses: Self-KO Clause, Wifi Battle
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2016
  2. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    So another topic I would like to bring up that can potentially be implemented is a Sleep Clause. I believe sleep is a detrimental part of this metagame as it allows any wallbreaker to sleep any bulky checks and counters they have, and proceed to wreck the opposing team. This has become an issue when teambuilding as whenever I want to play stall or bulky offense, I always feel forced to run at least 2 Safety Googles mons to check Spore (but even then, Dark Void is becoming popular because of this). That's why I feel a Sleep Clause would be beneficial, as Sleep moves can still be used, but not to the extent that it is currently being used that really favors the metagame towards offense. Idk if it's just me, but I feel sleep is the most unbalanced thing in the current metagame, and should at least be suspected.
     
  3. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Here is a BH banning philosophy that I found on Smogon, which I feel can be applied to PO as well:
    Pokemon Ban:
    I decided to start with the big one first; a full Pokemon ban. Unheard of in the last generation, the sheer power creep and especially the addition of the EV limit really forced the community's collective hand. However, I want to keep this as a last resort option, similar to my predecessor and the last generation. Banning a Pokemon to me goes against the philosophy I mentioned above and the spirit of BH. Therefore, in my opinion, these are the following properties a Pokemon should have to be considered banworthy:
    • Inherent/Natural Qualities:
      • Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them. A banworthy Pokemon would have high offensive and defensive stats, a great and balanced stat spread. This would set them apart from general extremes that do not warrant bans (from Deoxys-Attack to Shuckle to Blissey).
      • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards
    • Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
      • Building off of our natural traits, we now get into the 'mon's experience "in the field."
      • The inherent stat spread which leads to a great offensive and defensive prowess should logically allow the Pokemon to run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive. This stops the Pokemon from being predictable. This again plays back into the battle of the extremes; it is just as unlikely to see Registeel being a nuke as having Gengar-Mega being your team's defensive anchor
      • Despite this it is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. This gets into the second part of the natural traits; there has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more
      • It is important to have both of these traits. Study Shedinja and Chansey with Imposter and its combination of HP and ability to hold Eviolite are unique threats, but are the definition of one-dimensional. Meanwhile, Arceus has one of the best evenly balanced stat spreads but fails to differentiate itself from the other 'mons that can run similar sets to an equally proficient to better degree.
    • Centralization: Here we see the dreaded buzzword again but now it shall be built on the above two points. Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. In addition, it includes the following aspects:
      • One of (or both):
        • It would be disadvantageous to not use the Pokemon that is ban-worthy, to the point that it would be difficult to win a game regularly without itor
        • While not using the 'mon itself, in an attempt to prepare for it, checks and counters are used that become completely insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the usual threats of the tier, as decided by the community at the time. This can include roles, Pokemon, or specific moves as well. An example that does not meet this would be having trouble facing a set that can be run on many different 'mons such as Contrary. Again, this plays back into the multidimensional and unique aspect
      • The Pokemon in question is able to excel in multiple and unique sets to the point that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other, or that a single counter, or multiple checks are insufficient in handling the Pokemon as a threat.
    Ability Ban:
    The power to set nearly any ability that a 'mon would prefer almost ideally, is the second most defining and important property of BH, so I will go through it next. Most of the logic will be similar to the above. An Ability should be considered for ban if:
    • It can either provide an inherent skill that is so good that it can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset. This is true with Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard, which can work on offensive and defensive Pokemon alike, and as Classic Hackmons have proven, can be run on any Pokemon, be it an LC mon or Rayquaza-Mega
    • Or the ability can so augment the capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question would be difficult or impossible to check or counter. This is similar to the last point on Pokemon ban above, but it is an important distinction, since this implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. Pure Power/Huge Power and Parental Bond fall into this category
    Move Ban:
    As you likely have guessed, the logic for a move ban will be similar to what I've given already. What makes a move ban-worthy would be:
    • An attack that is overwhelmingly powerful to the point of there being no counters to it, or the counters are unreasonable to use, affect performance against the general meta (as decided by the players), niche or unusable.
    • A move (attack or status) that removes the emphasis on skill, planning and preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player.
    • The move can be run effectively without needing real synergy with the Pokemon itself, its ability, the rest of its moveset, item or any in-game condition.
    • Chatter and Evasion raising moves all fall into the above points. Even OHKO moves, without No Guard, would still retain the second and third properties by being a luck-based game of 30% chance for a free KO, with little regard to in-game constraints.
    Item Ban:
    While unprecedented and therefore difficult to make a guide for, I have included some initial thoughts about what would be needed to advocate an Item ban:
    • Similar to the point in Ability above, the hypothetical ban-worthy item would greatly augment a mon's offensive or defensive capabilities, to the point of reducing the game to a simple "do you have the item or not" question. No item falls in this category yet, but in my opinion, it'd be something to the tune of an Eviolite that works with any Pokemon or a Life Orb with no drawbacks
    • An item ban can also be considered if it allows Pokemon access to mechanics that have already been banned (see FAQ). Examples of this include Red Orb turning Groudon into Groudon-Primal, or Gengar receiving Shadow Tag through a manual Mega-Evolution. For this, the Pokemon with the item would have to be evaluated as if it were a new Pokemon ban, except the Ability and Item would obviously be preset.
    Clauses:
    Clauses should be reserved for complex cases where individual bans on any of the above would not successfully handle a ban-worthy strategy that is composed of several Pokemon, move(s), ability(ies) or any combination of them. Similar to everything covered so far, the strategy would have to be any or all of:
    • So dominant that there would be little to no checks for it
    • Remove the emphasis of the game from skill to outside forces such as luck or amount of time the battlers have (e.g. endless battle)
    • The player is forced to choose between preparing for this specific strategy at the cost of facing the usual meta at the time (as determined by the player base)
    Clauses may also be used to limit instead of entirely remove a strategy, when it is deemed that the problem lies in it being exponentially more effective when repeated than if it were limited to one. -Ate and Ability Clause are good examples of this phenomenon.

    The Endless Battle and Assist clauses are also good examples of why a clause may be needed (Assist extends beyond the move itself because the team has to follow a specific construction and there is no real counter for the move Assist in and of itself, but rather the whole strategy).
    Credit to user E4 Flint on Smogon

    I believe this guide will be very useful for deciding bans for BH from there on out. Thoughts?
     
  4. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

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    I personally do not see much of a justification for banning Primal Kyogre while allowing normal Kyogre to remain unbanned, since normal Kyogre is almost exactly as effective anyway, as it only has 30 less base Special Attack and 20 less base Special Defense. Everything else about the two Pokémon are exactly the same.

    I can understand banning Primal Groudon but not normal Groudon though, as the former receiving Same Type Attack Bonus for Sacred Fire and V-create obviously makes a world of a difference.

    Also, I feel that the lack of Sleep Clause is perfectly fine in this metagame, given how incredibly dominant the Abilities Poison Heal and Magic Bounce are anyway.
     
  5. fsk

    fsk Woke up after a long dream Forum Moderator Server Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Server Moderator Tournament Host

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    Well, it seems that the suspect test for normal kyogre is forgotten. Talked to TOL, and we do think normal kyogre is bannable. So just post here as a reminder. Esp under the unlimited EV, revenge kill with ate doesn't work well.
     
  6. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ya I too believe we should ban reg Kyogre, it's truly insane after one or two boosts and does practically the exact same thing as its Primal counterpart as the extra Sp.def that form has is negligible after a few quiver boosts. Ban it right away imo.

    also can we still discuss sleep clause?
     
  7. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

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    Who else believes that the -ate Clause is unnecessary in this metagame? I have played Balanced Hackmons a lot on both Pokémon Online and Pokémon Showdown! (far moreso on the former anyway), and I can perfectly understand why that clause is in place on Pokémon Showdown!. With the limited EVs, Steel-type Pokémon cannot have both their physical and special bulk maximized, meaning -ate Pokémon can easily overcome them if their coverage move (the one besides Fake Out, Extreme Speed and Boomburst) happens to hit the Steel-type Pokémon's lower defensive stat. For example, if a team uses a physically-defensive Aegislash or Registeel to check -ates, it would still be very weak to any -ate that runs Earth Power or Magma Storm as its coverage move, while if a team uses a specially-defensive Aegislash or Registeel, it is weak to any -ate that runs Precipice Blades or Thousand Arrows as its coverage move.

    But not only is there no EV limit on Pokémon Online, but the ORAS Balanced Hackmons ladder on this simulator allows the use of Arceus-Steel (without being forced to run Iron Plate + Multitype), which has significantly greater mixed bulk than any Steel-type Pokémon usable in Pokémon Showdown!'s version of this metagame. Additionally, the far greater overall bulk of the Pokémon in this metagame courtesy of the lack of an EV limit, combined with the abundance of Arceus makes -ates much easier to handle here. In fact, I find that they are far easier to deal with than many other Pokémon such as Protean Mega Mewtwo, Moody Mega Mewtwo Y and Poison Heal sweepers, which is why I believe that the -ate Clause is far from needed.
     
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  8. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    I feel the -ate clause is justified because while it is perfectly reasonable to be expected to prepare for an ate pokemon and it is not difficult to do so with a couple of pokemon which also perform other roles for the team, it is only possible to do so because you have to stop one ate which, after scouting a little, has no surprises to throw at you. After all it has only one item and 4 moves. However when faced with the prospect of multiple ates your preparation has to cover every combination of strategies, whether this is piling on the same threat to wear down their check, thereby breaking it, or by running varied ates with different items and coverage to break any reasonable preparation for it (at the expense of basically clicking x button against teams that do have 3/4 different ate checks). Here's some food for thought: specs modest aerilate mega ray has 96% chance to 2hko 252/252 arceus steel (no I'm not suggesting you should run it). In other matters: I can see the reasoning for a sleep clause with sleep helping to break any potential wall not sleepproofed but the loss of a coverage move and the prevalence of PH, magic bounce, safety goggles and the possibility for more niche stops to sleep spam do help to balance this.
     
  9. ModiBH

    ModiBH New Member

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    MEGA - GARCHOMP / EXCADRILL

    Ability: Technician
    Nature: Adamant
    Item: Wide Lens

    MOVES:

    Shift Gear
    Bonemerang
    Dual Chop / Storm Throw
    Gear Grind

    As we know, Parental bond is banned from BH.

    This legal set provide you almost the same experience than parental bond.
     
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  10. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    Other mentions for technician are mega steelix and groudon which also both have ground stab. Icicle spear is worth a mention especially for those who don't get stab gear grind since it hits flying types that avoid bonemerang and the common dragon types of the tier.
     
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  11. ModiBH

    ModiBH New Member

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    For Groudon, isn't better to use Skill Link ?

    Shift Gear
    Bone Rush
    Icle spear
    Bullet seed
     
  12. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    hey, since some people want me to post my opinion on kyogre.

    while i do believe that kyogre might be unhealthy to the tier. banning it won't solve the problem. other bulky water mons will just rise up and become kyogre's replacement, example being Arceus-Water. i honestly believe the problem here lies with Poison Heal instead of Kyogre. i'd rather suspect poison heal or not at all for the reason i have said above. just my 2 cents
     
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  13. ModiBH

    ModiBH New Member

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    BTW people are still using primal forms in BH.
    Also, i dont think that primal forms are a real threat in the actual meta.​

     
  14. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Primal forms are allowed in BH when the base form is holding the appropriate orb (ie: Red Orb Groudon and Blue Orb Kyogre).

    Re Poison Heal: I can see this as the issue instead of Kyogre as well due to he fact that it allows setup sweepers so much more opportunity to sweep and outlast there checks and counters. This is especially accented due to the no EV limit we have, which means that stuff like Quiver Dance PH Kyogre is even more difficult to revenge kill once it setups.
     
  15. ModiBH

    ModiBH New Member

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    No, you can use them without orbs it s available since the update of the server.
    Maybe a bug, i don't know...
     
  16. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    If that's the case then ya it's a bug
     
  17. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast! Tournament Host Tournament Host

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    I am pretty sure this bug was fixed yesterday. This, along with the bug that caused the Arceus formes to be OU. @ModiBH, are you still able to use un-orbed primals?
     
  18. ModiBH

    ModiBH New Member

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    It's fixed, i've just tried. Good job ;)
     
  19. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    I was writing a wall of text about how kyogre should be banned, but I realised that the points applied to pretty much any pokemon with good stats. I think most points why it is broken have been or will soon be said so I'll list some of the answers to it: even more PH spam, gastro acid etc, bulky magic bouncers preferably resisting water, -ates to rk at low health but even this is takes lots of prior damage and king shield is a feasible way to stop this, shedinja checks or at least slows down some sets, prankster topsy turvy if they boost too far. The problem with most of these options is they can easily be beaten with some team support, niche sets or just wearing down. The issue with PHogre is it will overcome it's checks eventually unless it is killed immediately, which is hard [citation needed].
     
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  20. fsk

    fsk Woke up after a long dream Forum Moderator Server Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Server Moderator Tournament Host

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    oh well, before we move on to gen 7, i think we need to ban moody after all.
    Turn One
    mega mewtwo y's evasion sharply roses

    Turn Two
    Mega Mewtwo uses substitue
    Rayquaza's Boombust missed!
    Mega Mewtwo y's speed sharply roses!

    Turn Three
    Mega Mewtwo y's evasion sharply roses!

    Pls, Evasion is just stupid in any meta game, and as long as we want a "balanced hackmons", we don't need this aids. (Read: my luck is shit)
    The moody set is nowhere near a good set(read: i never get lucky in getting evasion) but when someone deliberately abuse it to get evasion early in the game like 1 out of 100 game, it is still stupid. The evasion makes the game a no brainer, and it simply removes player agency.
     
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  21. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    yea I totally agree that Moody needs to go. Wanted to post about it before but kinda forgot to so I'm glad it was brought up now. Moody basically adds nothing competitive wise to the game as people only real use it to void the evasion ban and fish for those evasion boosts. It also allows Psychics like MMY and Lugia to become incredible bulky and powerful when they use Stored Power as all they need to do is just stall out turns to get free boosts. It's really uncompetitive and luck base and it should be banned.
     
  22. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    Agreeing with above posts
    It seems stupid allowing a strat that relies on the chance of getting a particular boost that you need in the situation
     
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