1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Cloudflare Security Issue - Change Your Passwords!

    Hello there, Guest!

    Cloudflare, the internet proxy we use to protect ourselves against DDoS and other malicious attacks, reported on 23rd February 2017 that they had patched a bug reported by Google's Project Zero that was exposing sensitive information in random requests, approximately 0.00003% of all requests, since September 2016.

    Whilst it is unlikely that any information has been leaked from this website, we recommend that all users change their passwords here on the Pokémon Online forums, as a precaution. Remember to use a unique and secure password for every site that requires one.

    We apologise for any inconvenience caused.

    Dismiss Notice

[ORAS] Balanced Hackmons Viability Ranking

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Funbot28, Feb 6, 2016.

Moderators: Isa, sulcata
  1. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    96
    Approved by: @TraceofLife



    [​IMG]
    credit to user litra​
    Welcome to the official Balanced Hackmons Viability Rankings thread. As a community, we will discussing the viability of certain pokemon that are viable in the current metagame from alphabetical order (S-D Rank). Common abilities are also listed next to the pokemon. Please provide solid arguments when nominating a change, and we as a community will determine it's validity.

    S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the BH metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

    S+ Rank

    [​IMG] Chansey (Imposter, Fur Coat)

    S Rank

    [​IMG] Mewtwo-Mega-Y (Protean, Contrary, Mold Breaker, No Guard, Moody)
    [​IMG] Rayquaza-Mega (Aerilate, Delta Stream, Gale Wings, Tinted Lens, Protean)


    A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the BH metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

    A+ Rank

    [​IMG] Giratina (Poison Heal, Magic Bounce, Prankster, Fur Coat, Regenerator)
    [​IMG] Kyogre (Poison Heal, Mold Breaker, Primordial Sea)
    [​IMG] Mewtwo-Mega-X (Protean, Refrigerate, Pixilate, Contrary, Mold Breaker)

    A Rank

    [​IMG] Blissey (Imposter, Fur Coat)
    [​IMG] Diancie-Mega (Pixilate)
    [​IMG] Primal Groudon* (Intimidate, Magic Guard, Download)

    A- Rank

    [​IMG] Aegislash (Prankster, Magic Bounce)
    [​IMG] Arceus-Fairy (Pixilate, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce, Unaware, Fur Coat)
    [​IMG] Arceus-Ghost (Poison Heal, Mold Breaker, Simple)
    [​IMG] Arceus-Steel (Magic Bounce, Prankster, Fur Coat)
    [​IMG] Gengar-Mega (Mold Breaker, Prankster, Magic Bounce)


    B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the BH metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

    B+ Rank

    [​IMG] Arceus (Poison Heal, Magic Bounce, Simple)
    [​IMG] Audino-Mega (Poison Heal, Fur Coat, Regenerator, Magic Bounce)
    [​IMG] Latias-Mega (Fur Coat, Contrary, Adaptability, Tinted Lens)
    [​IMG] Latios-Mega (Fur Coat, Contrary, Adaptability, Tinted Lens)
    [​IMG] Regirock (Poison Heal, Regenerator, Magic Bounce, Fur Coat)
    [​IMG] Slowbro-Mega (Fur Coat, Regenerator, Unaware, Poison Heal, Simple)
    [​IMG] Shedinja (Sturdy)

    B Rank

    [​IMG] Aggron-Mega (Fur Coat, Magic Bounce, Regenerator, Filter)
    [​IMG] Dialga (Tinted Lens, Mold Breaker, Magic Bounce)
    [​IMG] Gengar (Illusion, Magic Bounce)
    [​IMG] Gyarados-Mega (Mold Breaker, Poison Heal)
    [​IMG] Kyurem-Black (Refrigerate)
    [​IMG] Slaking (Poison Heal, Scrappy, Simple)
    [​IMG] Yveltal (Aerilate, Poison Heal, Delta Stream, Gale Wings)

    B- Rank

    [​IMG] Arceus-Psychic (Unaware, Poison Heal, Fur Coat, Magic Bounce)
    [​IMG] Kyurem-White (Tinted Lens, Refrigerate, No Guard)
    [​IMG] Tyranitar-Mega (Sand Stream, Mold Breaker, Poison Heal)


    C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the BH metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

    C+ Rank

    [​IMG] Aerodactyl-Mega (Mold Breaker, Poison Heal, Gale Wings, Magic Guard)
    [​IMG] Blaziken-Mega (Contrary, Speed Boost, Adaptability, Tinted Lens)
    [​IMG] Deoxys-Speed (Mold Breaker, No Guard, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard)
    [​IMG] Lugia (Poison Heal, Regenerator, Magic Bounce, Fur Coat, Filter)
    [​IMG] Regigigas (Poison Heal, Simple, Scrappy, Regenerator)

    C Rank

    [​IMG] Ho-oh (Magic Guard, Regenerator, Poison Heal, Gale Wings)
    [​IMG] Palkia (Primordial Sea, Tinted Lens)
    [​IMG] Zekrom (Tough Claws, Mold Breaker, Poison Heal)

    C- Rank

    [​IMG] Darmanitan-Zen (Contrary, Tinted Lens, No Guard, Simple)
    [​IMG] Garchomp-Mega (Poison Heal, Mold Breaker)
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan-Mega (Parental Bond, Poison Heal)
    [​IMG] Reshiram (Contrary, Desolate Land, Poison Heal, Tinted Lens, No Guard)
    [​IMG] Venusaur-Mega (Magic Bounce, Regenerator, Filter)
    [​IMG] Scizor-Mega (Primordial Sea, Magic Bounce, Prankster)


    D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the BH metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

    D Rank

    [​IMG] Alakazam-Mega (No Guard, Tinted Lens, Magic Guard)
    [​IMG] Altaria-Mega (Pixilate, Poison Heal)
    [​IMG] Banette-Mega (Prankster, Poison Heal)
    [​IMG] Charizard-Mega-Y (Magic Guard, Desolate Land, Regenerator, Gale Wings)
    [​IMG] Deoxys-Attack (Protean, Tinted Lens, Mold Breaker, No Guard, Contrary)
    [​IMG] Gourgeist-Super (Primordial Sea, Prankster, Filter, Poison Heal)
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn (Primordial Sea, Regenerator, Prankster)
    [​IMG] Heatran (Levitate, Regenerator, Fur Coat)
    [​IMG] Houndoom-Mega (Desolate Land, Tinted Lens, No Guard)
    [​IMG] Lucario-Mega (Adaptability, No Guard)
    [​IMG] Mawile-Mega (Huge Power, Regenerator)
    [​IMG] Sceptile-Mega (Contrary, Tinted Lens)
    [​IMG] Shuckle (Poison Heal, Prankster, Magic Bounce, Regenerator)
    [​IMG] Skarmory (Primordial Sea, Magic Bounce, Prankster, Regenerator)

    *: The Pokemon must be holding a Red Orb.

     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
    Joyverse likes this.
  2. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    96
    @Celestial Phantom @Aurist can you guys work your magic por favor?

    Edit: I actually realized that it may be difficult with the abilities there, @TraceofLife is it necessary to have them?
     
  3. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    540
    I don't think it can be formatted like that if you're gonna keep the abilities, and I do think the abilities should be kept, it gives a good insight into the tier. It's probably fine as-is :+] Cool artwork
     
    Funbot28 likes this.
  4. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike Forum Moderator Tour Director Forum Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    575
    PO Trainer Name:
    TraceofLife
    yeah, it's fine as it is
     
  5. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    149
    PO Trainer Name:
    willdbeast
    I don't think chansey should be ranked as highly as it is since its imposter set is only really effective against teams which aren't prepared for it (ie bad ones) and against most decent teams having an imposter is basically starting 5-6 down, however chansey's stall sets are very good at what they do so I would suggest moving it down to mere S rank (otherwise pdon will cry). Also darmanitan wut? I have tried using it and it is basically a worse pdon with its only advantage being good special bulk. However its flaws include terrible speed (at +1 is still out sped by a lot of the tier), only one good offensive stat so its sets are limited, being massively overshadowed by pdon (and pretty much every other fire type in existence) and even its "strong" stat of 140 base spatt is weak for this tier. IMO put it in D where it belongs. I can only see that thing being any use on a trick room team and when everything has priority even that won't help.
     
  6. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    276
    PO Trainer Name:
    Blitz
    I don't understand why people want a Chansey drop given that Imposter shapes the tier in its entirety - it is the reason why there are so many Imposter-proof sets and why shit like Contrary doesn't ravage the tier - it is the centralizing force in BH (a balancing evil). Fur Coat is just an extra option to be wary off, but if we were ranking individual sets yeah I'd drop that one bc it isn't nearly as omnipresent as Imposter. You can make arguments for "yeah Imposter is only as good as the mon it's copying" but that just brings me back to the point of "if it's Imposter proof, it shows the effect it has on the tier" bc otherwise most things lose.

    Blissey is the Choice Scarf variant of Chansey which is p niche. Otherwise it does the same thing as Chansey but is less bulky - you'll prob pick the smaller blob more than half the time. Its ranking is also "controversial" and obv it should drop if Chansey drops etc.

    Wouldn't compare it to PDon... Darm-Z was a cool mon before but the existence of Primals + power creep hurts it a fuck ton. It was really cool option on stall teams but Unaware / Regen aren't even listed as viable options here bc it's just p mediocre now. Agree with a drop.

    Arceus formes on the sim rn are bugged and they can carry any item instead of just their plate. I'd probably separate reg Arceus and the rest of the Arceus formes anyways - they do have a niche of masquerading other Arceus formes, with the advantage of being Imposter-proof inherently and immune to the effects of Trick / Knock Off.
     
    Funbot28 likes this.
  7. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    149
    PO Trainer Name:
    willdbeast
    Thing I think are worthy of adding: Mega blaziken (contrary) usually outclassed by pdon but it is slightly quicker and gets stab close combat/super power, probably somewhere in low C; prankster as a venusaur ability; speed boost for latwins, unburden for ho-oh. Also when I suggested a chansey drop it was a drop to S rank, not to like D- or something, which would still have it as joint best mon in the tier.
     
  8. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2011
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    6
    Surprisingly accurate list.

    I would only swap Aegislash with M-Latias and M-Slowbro with M-Latios.
    Anything below B+ is outclassed 99% of the time. I dont bother using any of them.

    Can we have such list for past Gen Hackmons aswell ?
    Or for Hackmons ?
     
  9. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike Forum Moderator Tour Director Forum Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    575
    PO Trainer Name:
    TraceofLife
    If you really think Mega [email protected] are better than aegislash and mega slowbro, you're very wrong, they have different roles.

    Personally I think slaking is really low lol,
    I think it deserves at least B but that's just me.
     
  10. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    96
    Ya Chansey is the BH metagame, and I feel it's a clear cut above any of the other mons on the list, even the Hoenn Trio. If people would like me to move it down to S while moving the Hoenn Trio to A+ and so forward, I guess I will be willing to do that. Anyways here is an updated change list:

    Code (text):
    1. Slaking to B
    2. Mega Blaziken to C+
    3. Mega [email protected] to B+
    4.  
    Edit: Darmanitan-Z to C-

    Does Hoopa-B deserve to be unranked after it was discovered that Chansey can use Hyperspace Fury after using Imposter? I feel that is what Hoopa's only niche really, to be Imposter proof which it is not anymore. I would like discussion on this:

    Shedinja to A
    Registeel to A-
    Mega Audino to B+
    Dialga to B+

    Discuss!
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2016
  11. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    96
    Ok removed Primals from the list due to them being banned, a decision I wanted to make is to put Mega Mewtwo-Y in S, does this seem justified?

    Edit: Also added regular Groudon to B and Kyogre to B+, feel free to disagree and make your own noms for them if you want.
     
    Blitzamirin likes this.
  12. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    149
    PO Trainer Name:
    willdbeast
    I think mega mewtwo y being in S is perfectly justified since it is about the hardest hitting thing now the primals are gone. With LO protean set it ohkos things like registeel (at least when it's modest) and has almost perfect coverage with 3 moves + kingshield to survive some priority spam. Personally I think shedinja to A would be reasonable since once you have killed its checks it just wins. I think the fact that about 25% of my moves are there for the soul purpose of killing shedi demonstrates its impact. Also it is a good way of beating imposters.
     
    Funbot28 likes this.
  13. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    96
    Update time:

    Code (text):
    1. Mega Mewtwo-Y: A+ tp S
    2. Mega Mewtwo-X: A to A+
    3. Mega Diancie: A- to A
    4. Registeel: B+ to A-
    5. Mega Audino: B to B+
    6. Hoopa-Unbound: C+ to Unranked
    Discuss any other potential changes!
     
  14. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    295
    Likes Received:
    140
    PO Trainer Name:
    【天龍神】 ワタル
    I can tell that this viability ranking list was taken off of the Balanced Hackmons Viability Ranking list on Smogon, and I can tell you right off the bat that taking the list from there is a bad idea.

    First of all, the fact that Pokémon can have 252 EVs in all stats is sure to alter the viability of Pokémon in this metagame as compared to the Balanced Hackmons metagame on Pokémon Showdown!, since the lack of an EV limit in this metagame makes all the Pokémon in it inherently much bulkier, and therefore the metagame is more stall-based than offense-based. Certain attacks that could KO certain Pokémon in X number of hits are likely to require an extra hit to score the KO, since Pokémon can now have 252 EVs in HP, Defense and Special Defense.

    One great example of a Pokémon which should be ranked lower on this list than on Smogon's list is Shedinja. Because the EV limit makes Smogon's Balanced Hackmons metagame more offensive, people are more likely to run offense in that metagame, and offense has a lot more trouble against Shedinja than more defensive teams are. This is because offensive teams need to do a lot of things like sacrificing a sweeper's/wall-breaker's coverage for a move like Infestation specifically to KO Shedinja, opting for a highly inaccurate move like Magma Storm just for that purpose, playing with 50/50 situations by predicting the opponent's Shedinja switch-in with Infestation/Magma Storm (and not to mention even if you predict correctly, Magma Storm can still miss), double-switching to one's Mold Breaker/Turboblaze/Teravolt Pursuit user to trap the opponent's Shedinja (the Pursuit user can be KO'd by the opponent, especially with an EV limit if they predict correctly, and Shedinja can even surprise such Pursuit users with Focus Sash + Endeavor if they are not of the Ghost type), putting Rocky Helmet on a random Pokémon and hoping it gets hit by Endeavor, and things like that. Stealth Rock on an offensive team is hardly an answer to Shedinja, as Defogging is extremely easy especially with a well-built team used by a skilled trainer.

    However, because the Pokémon in stall and balanced teams last much longer than those in offensive teams, they do not struggle anywhere near as much against Shedinja, as they can play defensively over many turns, in which they receive countless chances to KO the opponent's Shedinja via entry hazards or a Mold Breaker/Turboblaze/Teravolt Pursuit user. And additionally, because balanced and especially stall teams don't mind having any of its members being "completely walled" by a Pokémon anywhere close to as much as offensive teams do, Shedinja is further made to be less of an issue for such teams as well. And since balanced and stall teams are more effective in this metagame than in Smogon's Balanced Hackmons metagame, it follows that Shedinja is not as good in this metagame.

    Finally, I would like to mention that Xerneas and Cresselia (two Pokémon which are only placed where they are on this list because it was copied directly from Smogon) do not deserve to be anywhere close to as high as they are on this list, for one very simple reason: With the Arceus type mechanics in mind, they are mostly outclassed by Arceus-Fairy and Arceus-Psychic respectively. Arceus-Fairy may have slightly lower offensive stats than Xerneas, but its much higher bulk as well as its far superior Speed which allows it to outrun Mega Rayquaza, Mega Latias, Mega Latios and Regigigas are simply far too important. Arceus-Psychic has the same HP and Defense stats as Cresselia, and while it may have 10 less base Special Defense, one must remember that having a high Speed stat is still very important for a wall. For example, say that one's Unaware Arceus-Psychic/Cresselia is at 70% HP and is currently not sent out, while the opponent has a Poison Heal Regigigas out. If one is using Cresselia, then they cannot switch into a Facade, as after being hit on the switch, Regigigas outruns Cresselia and finishes it off with a second Facade on the next turn. But since Arceus-Psychic is faster than Regigigas, it can simply Recover before that Pokémon uses its second Facade.
     
    Edna and Funbot28 like this.
  15. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    96
    I will agree that I used the Smogon BH Viability Rankings as a backbone as the metas are so similar even with the EV Limit. It is true that a lot of pokemon become more bulkier without the EV limit but I still feel that the threats that stand out remain to be somewhat the same (although there are some exceptions like you mentioned). And its not a direct carbon copy of Smogons as there are some different rankings going on. I do want to change the rankings up a bit more but the lack of community input and the guilt I feel when I am solely dictate the rankings limits changes from occurring more often.

    I agree with the points you brought up though however, and I just want a bit more community feedback before I go a long with the noms.

    P.S I also feel that we should just stick with an EV limit to be more true to cartridge mechanics...
     
  16. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    295
    Likes Received:
    140
    PO Trainer Name:
    【天龍神】 ワタル
    I know that what I am about to say is mostly covered by the contents of my previous post, but I feel that I need to emphasize the following anyway:

    I do not believe that Kyogre deserves to merely be B+ in rank, when you consider the following moveset it can run:

    [​IMG]

    Luna (Kyogre) @ Toxic Orb
    Ability: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Dark Void
    - Moonblast
    - Quiver Dance
    - Water Spout

    Not only is it an insanely destructive and effective sweeper that can easily get past both Unaware walls and Imposters alike, but in addition to being a sweeper, it also contributes immensely to a team's defensive synergy, thanks to its incredible special bulk (which is further augmented by the lack of an EV limit in this metagame) combined with the fact that once its Toxic Orb has been activated, it can be used to absorb Dark Voids and Spores from even Mold Breaker/Turboblaze/Teravolt Pokémon. Its Dark Void, which it can safely fire without fear of Magic Bounce thanks to its Toxic Orb, can also give it free turns to recover HP with Poison Heal, in order to prevent it from being revenge-killed by an Aerilate/Pixilate Fake Out + Extreme Speed Pokémon. In my eyes, the above Kyogre is even more dangerous as a sweeper than the Spooky Plate-holding Mold Breaker/Turboblaze/Teravolt Mega Gengar moveset with Shell Smash, Dark Void, Judgment and Secret Sword, yet that Kyogre also serves its team with defensive utility as explained above, unlike Mega Gengar. As such, I can see no way for Mega Gengar to be above Kyogre on this list. Kyogre can even serve as an emergency check to the aforementioned Mega Gengar, due to its immunity to Dark Void combined with its ability to take a +2 Judgment before retaliating with its own Dark Void.

    The following calculations show how much more difficult it is to revenge-kill Kyogre as opposed to Mega Gengar:

    252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre: 121-144 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- 31.7% chance to 3HKO
    252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre: 243-286 (60.1 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Oblivion Wing vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre: 99-118 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

    252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Gengar: 393-463 (121.2 - 142.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Oblivion Wing vs. -1 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Gengar: 294-347 (90.7 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Gengar: 130-154 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Gengar: 262-309 (80.8 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Also, if you are wondering why Kyogre is ranked as low as it is on Smogon's list, the answer is largely because of the EV limit in their metagame. Take a look at the following calculations, and note that even the assumption that Kyogre has 252 EVs in HP in that metagame is being generous, since Kyogre in that metagame needs to invest in both Speed and Special Attack:

    252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 282-333 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Also, take a look at many of the replays posted in this Rate My Team thread of mine (it's on Smogon, yes, but that was before the EV limit was implemented, making the Balanced Hackmons metagame in which that team was used very similar to the one here on Pokémon Online) to see just how devastating a sweeper Kyogre can be. I'd personally even go as far as to argue that it is easily worthy of being an S Rank Pokémon due to all of its offensive and defensive qualities as explained in this post.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
  17. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    96
    Ok new changes coming through:

    Code (text):
    1. Kyogre: B+ to A+
    2. Shedinja: A- to B+
    3. Xerneas: B to C-
    4. Arceus- Fairy: Unr to A-
    5. Cresselia: B- to Unr
    6. Arceus-Psychic: Unr to B-
    7. Arceus-Ghost: Unr to A-
    8. Arceus-Steel: Unr to A-
    9. Registeel: A- to B
    What are peoples thoughts on Mega Mewtwo X in S? I find it to be quite on the same caliber compared to its other Mega counterpart.
     
  18. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    295
    Likes Received:
    140
    PO Trainer Name:
    【天龍神】 ワタル
    I think Mega Mewtwo X definitely belongs in the same rank as Mega Mewtwo Y. While it may be slower, I personally think that a physically-offensive Protean Pokémon is even more dangerous than a specially-offensive one, due to the existence of physical attacks with excellent power and coverage, such as V-create and Bolt Strike.

    Furthermore, Mega Mewtwo X is also the superior Contrary user, mostly because it receives Same Type Attack Bonus for Superpower and has a stronger V-create.
     
    Funbot28 likes this.
  19. Joyverse

    Joyverse Road Roller time!

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2014
    Messages:
    1,450
    Likes Received:
    779
    PO Trainer Name:
    Joyverse
    [​IMG] Xerneas (Pixilate, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce, Unaware, Fur Coat)

    Add Magic Guard too pls, Light of Ruin LO too much at times.

    [​IMG] Gengar-Mega (Mold Breaker, Prankster)
    and Magic bounce here, QD magic Bounce so phoonie!
     
  20. fsk

    fsk Kept hacking Tier Leader Server Moderator Tier Leader Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    227
    PO Trainer Name:
    fsk
    There are just too many abilities that are not even listed here, though u r right pointing some sets out. Although I need to remind you that Mega Diance hits harder than Xerneas, and Arceus Fairy is bulkier.
    The good thing is that after the bug with top-tur and magic bounce being fixed just several days ago, Magic Bounce set up is again viable, though there are just so many mons that can run set up + Magic Bounce.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Back to the thread.
    One thing that deserves ranking is Arceus form Fire, Water and Electric Imo.
    Arceus-Fire resists two of the three ates users, and pairing it with Electric/Steel to counter Aerilate Ray. Also, the common set for ate recently is Fake espeed Boomburst plus either sacred fire or V-create. So Arceus-Fire surely has a niche in the meta.
    Arceus-Electric with Levitate, Arceus-Water with Volt Absorb are great Protean MM2X(Usually with Bolt Strike, and perhaps Pblade or V-create) counter, where it can surprise the opponents as well. The value of these seemingly weird sets are actually underrated since NO sweepers that does not COUNTER CHANSEY is good. And this certain sets of Arceus can make your own MM2X sets Chansey-proof.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  21. KingRiolu

    KingRiolu New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2016
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey i think Mawile should be on the list at b+ or higher because you can simple shift gear into huge power and good stab and its BH legal and Chansey proof example:

    Mawile @ Mawilite
    Ability: Simple
    EVs: 156 HP / 216 Atk / 136 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Play Rough
    - Meteor Mash
    - Shift Gear
    - Slack Off/Bullet Punch
     
  22. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    149
    PO Trainer Name:
    willdbeast
    This set is in no way imposter proof. After a shift gear an imposter will OHKO you with meteor mash while you do not very much in return, and that's BEFORE it has huge power. It does have good typing and it's post mega ability is obviously exceptional but for BH it has pathetic base 50 HP and speed, and while 678 attack unboosted is quite scary, you have to remember this includes the item and the ability, so something like mega mewtwo x is hitting just as hard with tough claws or something and has an item to play with. The biggest disadvantage with maw is it is so predictable. Tl;dr B is way too high for maw.
     
  23. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    149
    PO Trainer Name:
    willdbeast
    Arceus-water definitely deserves a mention in at least C, because although it is usually outclassed by kyogre and has noticeably lower special attack, it has similar special bulk, much better physical bulk, much higher speed and much better attack. The increased bulk allows it to perform any of kyogre's defensive roles as well or better and the speed allows it to out speed kyogre itself along with kyurem, giratina and groudon or with +speed nature: rayquaza, latwins, diancie and even adamant mm2x. This enables it to run any set with taunt, topsy turvy or similar moves with much greater success. The higher attack stat is worth a mention for the possibility of mixed offensive sets.
     
  24. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    295
    Likes Received:
    140
    PO Trainer Name:
    【天龍神】 ワタル
    Please also remember that Pokémon can have 252 EVs in every stat in this metagame.

    Also, I would like to take back something I said earlier in this thread:

    I no longer believe that Mega Mewtwo X in this metagame is as good as Mega Mewtwo Y, for one primary reason:

    Although Mega Mewtwo X and Mega Mewtwo Y can run a myriad of different movesets and Abilities, I believe that the flagship set/Ability of both of the aforementioned Pokémon is Protean. As a Protean wall-breaker, Mega Mewtwo Y is generally far easier to fit in a team than Mega Mewtwo X, at least provided the former does not run Psystrike, Secret Sword, or any move with which it can hit Chansey or Blissey hard. Why? Because of the fact that neither Protean Mega Mewtwo X nor Protean Mega Mewtwo Y is Imposter-proof in and of itself, including one of such Pokémon in a team entails that one must have another Pokémon in the team which can counter it in case it gets Impostered. In Mega Mewtwo X's case, this would mean dedicating a slot in the team to something like a Flash Fire Arceus-Grass or a Volt Absorb Arceus-Water. Despite the fact that such Pokémon can serve other roles besides countering an Impostered Mega Mewtwo X, such as setting up Stealth Rock or using Defog/Rapid Spin, the space they take up in the team is generally noticeable, as something generally much more useful like a Magic Bounce, Prankster or Poison Heal Arceus can easily be in its place otherwise. But in the case of Protean Mega Mewtwo Y, one can simply Imposter-proof it with their very own Imposter Chansey/Blissey, since their Ability does not activate against another Imposter. The untransformed Chansey/Blissey can then wall the opponent's Mega Mewtwo Y-transformed Imposter, healing with Soft-Boiled while setting up entry hazards such as Spikes and Toxic Spikes against it. Since Imposter Chansey/Blissey is basically the easiest Pokémon to fit into any ORAS Balanced Hackmons team, the need to Imposter-proof Protean Mega Mewtwo Y places far less demand on teambuilding than the need to Imposter-proof Protean Mega Mewtwo X does.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
    Funbot28 and fsk like this.
  25. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    149
    PO Trainer Name:
    willdbeast
    I agree with all of those points and would add the fact that 1) mewtwo y is noticeably quicker 2) it isn't weak to 2 of the -ates and with 252 HP/def can tank a hit or two and 3) special pokemon are easier to imposter proof anyway due to judgement/techno blast. The only real advantages of mewtwo x are better physical bulk and it can use a wider choice of priority moves better.
     
  26. fsk

    fsk Kept hacking Tier Leader Server Moderator Tier Leader Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    227
    PO Trainer Name:
    fsk
    I definitely support a rise or Arceus-water on viability ranking if the Kyogre ban is still on its way. (I don't know when we will ban/suspect PH kyogre although @TraceofLife agreed with us :v ) Indeed, Arceus-water is definitely a good stall mon with its typing and good bulk, and no doubt the no.1 PH kyogre check out there in the meta, esp. the dark void PH users. For sure, kyogre with the exact same typing as Arceus-water cannot carry coverage that SE to Arceus-water without some loss of its imposter-proof ability. So perhaps it deserves a B+ or even A-.
     
    Funbot28 and willdbeast like this.
  27. rainyman123

    rainyman123 Poliwag got some swag

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    What about Swasvuck? He's pretty good and spore immune, so he can sweep some characters like kyogre
     
  28. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    149
    PO Trainer Name:
    willdbeast
    Um I'm guessing you mean Sawsbuck? The main reason it isn't on the list is because its banned from BH it isn't that good. It's true that it's grass typing makes it immune to moves such as spore and leech seed and let's it get STAB super effective hits on key threats such as Kyogre and Groudon, while its 95 base speed is enough to beat both of these Pokemon. However grass type brings several weaknesses such as to both flying and ice meaning it is easily killed by -ates as well as a multitude of other weaknesses. The biggest thing that lets Sawsbuck down is it's low stats. While it can outspeed a few noticeable mons in the tier it is slower than the majority of them as well as it's attack stat of 100 being extremely low compared to the 150+ base offensive stats the key sweepers such as all mewtwos offer, and it's bulk is really quite lacking. It is also generally outclassed by shaymin, both forms of which have better stats in both offense and defence (not to mention arceus grass).
     
    Joyverse and Anielday like this.
  29. Anielday

    Anielday New Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2015
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    7
    Tbh Sawsbuck could be better than Arceis-Grass for my amazing prankster sub spore infestation leechseed set due to its lower HP for more leech seed recovery. However ferrothorn would be better in that case due to its 6 base HP less and much better bulk. As well as being a better typing (so not as weak to ate boomburst going through sub) and imune to toxic. Thus Sawsbuck is still outclassed for any role in BH.
     
    willdbeast likes this.
  30. rainyman123

    rainyman123 Poliwag got some swag

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    ok I sphere what your saying but just to give you some insight I have a set

    Santa's Slave (Sawsbuck-Winter) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Speed Boost
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Leaf Blade
    - Extreme Speed
    - Return

    i think the set is self-explanatory
    just Swords Dance setup and E-speed and leaf blade whatever. I think that Leaf Blade also OHKOs Mega Diance.
     
  31. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike Forum Moderator Tour Director Forum Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    575
    PO Trainer Name:
    TraceofLife
    Sawsbuck is not viable, please stop discussing it in this thread. for reasoning just read willdbeast's post.
     
    Funbot28, fsk and willdbeast like this.
  32. Boopiester

    Boopiester New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0

    I may seem ignorant but why is Chansey with Fur Coat/Imposter so good and can someone give me a good moveset for it.
     
  33. E.T.

    E.T. Proud Member Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2013
    Messages:
    1,062
    Likes Received:
    1,096
    PO Trainer Name:
    E.T.

    Imposter Chansey is great for copying setup sweepers and winning due to its enormous base HP, which it keeps after transforming, and the boosts it gets from Eviolite, which it also keeps after transforming. Fur Coat + Eviolite allows Chansey to be extremely bulky physically, which allows it to serve as a mixed wall since its Special Defense is already high as well. Commonly used sets can be found in the usage stats, but I'm not sure how reliable those are. Also, SM Balanced Hackmons exists now if you want to play with the latest generation. The discussion thread for that can be found here.
     
    fsk likes this.
  34. MaelFredbear

    MaelFredbear New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    For BH i use Ash-Greninja with Lightingrod and Electrify. Electrify with Lightingrod makes him immune to any move that someone uses on it. The only problems i saw on it are substitute users, lightingrod users and faster users.
    I use Mashadow with Speed Boost, Sword Dance and Spore too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017 at 9:57 PM
Moderators: Isa, sulcata