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Hoopa-Unbound Re-Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Zamrock, Feb 17, 2016.

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  1. Zamrock

    Zamrock - OUTL

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    [​IMG]


    Yeah yeah, I know... Another one!

    After some recent discussion on the state of the current metagame, the ORAS OU council has elected to re-test Hoopa-Unbound (or Hoopa-B, god knows why it's called that on PO). Discuss the possibility of Hoopa-Unbound remaining banned OR unbanned from the ORAS OU tier. Use this thread to discuss Hoopa-Unbound's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Hoopa-Unbound should remain banned or if it should return to the ORAS OU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes a post based on theorymon risks being infracted.

    Important notes:
    • Stay on topic.
    • Post intelligently (please and thank you)
    • Make meaningful posts. If your post doesn't contain any content, it is prone to being deleted. For example, posts that agree/don't agree with a certain point without any justification or explanation.
     
  2. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    The initial impact of Hoopa-U when it was launched was huge. 160/170 insane offensive stats, decent base 80 Speed, excellent movepool and an unstoppable signature move. After all, does not occupy a mega slot.

    But some Pokémon can switch the common sets of Hoopa-U, as Mandibuzz and Klefki. Obviously Hoopa-U can use specific moves against these and other mon.
    Stall and Balanced are now more unviable than before and Hoopa-U is not solely responsible for it, since there is other Pokémon with a much smaller number of safe switchs compared to Hoopa-U. (Aka Megas Gardevoir e Medicham.)

    The metagame is different when Hoopa-U was banned, then as in the case of Mega Metagross, Hoopa-U would be released to test it and make conclusions based not only on theory and/or smogon metagame?
     
  3. Edna

    Edna Christmas Time Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Lol at resuspecting something that got like 95% of pro ban arguments.

    Hoopa-B is still stupid and smashes alone Stall and Balanced, since all the arguments you have is 'I've played it on PS and it's fine there lol xdxd' I just want you to know that I've played PS OU and I'll keep my word that Hoopa-U is absurd in the metagame. Literally nothing switches into it and you can equip it scarf if you're that scared of getting outsped. The only counter to the Band set is Mandibuzz and we've seen how much it's used ( literally dropped to LU ) and this gives you a free kill with volt-turn combos.

    If your only argument is 'its speed isn't outstanding and its defense is shit' then unban Mega Mawile, it takes a mega slot, hits as much hard and is even slower etc etc. I mean it doesn't take a lot to realize that PO OU playerbase wanted it banned and for a reason, it makes the tier unbalanced and it's ridiculously powerful and it's a low risk mon unless it gets Pursuit trapped. This thing shouldn't even be considered to be unbanned and should remain banned.
     
  4. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Just coming to say that it should be allowed on the ladder like Mega Metagross, so this won't be all theorymon.

    I am kinda torn upon whether or not Hoopa-B should be unbanned or not in OU. However I do agree on re-suspecting it as it's previous suspect was really unprofessional with everyone screaming "Ban the monster!!" leaving players with different opinions feeling intimidated. I feel that now we are able to really look into Hoopa-B without everyone hyping it up to be banned, due to it's introduction being not so new anymore.

    I will not lie, it does not have many counters, or even checks for that matter. 160/170 offenses is really terrifying for OU standards and it's great Dark/Psychic offensive typing only compliments that. It even has a great 130 Sp.Def that lets it soak up pretty powerful special neutral hits. However, even though it may be brought up a million times, that 80 base Speed is really not helping it against offense at all (one of the most effective playstyles atm). It will usually be forced to run a Scarf if it wants to do well against it, and unlike Mega Mawile, it does not have the luxury of being able to utilize priority to mitigate this problem (especially that Mega Maw creates so many 50/50s with Sucker Punch, which I find is really incomparable to Hoopa-B). A more comparable example I can find to Hoopa-B's offensive prowess is Gen 5 Hydreigon, which it too had no counters and still was never banned. The icing on the cake of Hoopa-B's downside is that extremely low 60 Defense stat, which leaves it tending to be forced out by any physical priority user or faster physical attacker in general (which there are quite a few is it does not run a Scarf). This really does not help Hoopa-B at all versus offensive teams as it even is weak to some of the more common offensive typings such as Bug and Fairy, and lets not forget that it can easily be pursuited (which again mega Mawile at least had a way better defensive typing in Fairy/Steel and it had respectable bulk + Intimidate pre-mega).

    It is too early to tell if it should be unbanned or not in my eyes (especially if we can't test it yet...), but I just wanted to highlight some issues that Hoopa-B would have it if were re-introduced in the tier (in which I find the other thread didn't really stress on that much tbh). Will to another post when I have a solid opinion on it though.
     
  5. Draciel

    Draciel No Goodbyes

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    Hoopa-B has been unbanned in OU for the duration of this retest.

    I expect a great deal of discussion happening on this before any decision is made, so don't shy away from posting your thoughts!
     
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  6. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Oh yesss bring back the double Wish VoltTurn AIDS team!

    I'll post my thought once I wrecked the ladder with this overpowered piece of *beep*.

    EDIT: Some initial thoughts after playing for ~1h with Hoopa.

    During teambuilding:
    "Oo, WishPass Sylv would be nice with AV Hoopa. Oh fuck, they banned dry passing."
    "Mega Lopunny would make a great core with Hoopa. Oh fuck, they banned dry passing."

    During battles:
    "Oh great, they only have 1 dark resist, and it's slower! Game plan: VoltTurn to Hoopa, click Hyperspace Fury to win."
    "Yay a Chansey, now I can recover all my LO + SR recoil with Drain Punch!"
    "*watches Clefable die to a Gunk Shot*. Lel not a counter"
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2016
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  7. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I'll be talking about this a lot more.

    That being said @Elize Lutus has a good point that something so overwhelmingly banned so recently should not be retested so soon; and maybe its because people are on other sims and adopt unnamed, irrelevant ideology.

    One thing about last time; For a long time b4 it was banned hoopa-b's hyperspace fury was a special attack, which is a lot better to say the least. This probably influenced many opinions in the last suspect.

    Before testing anything my criteria is going to be: is this an unstoppable force?

    Meaning, in every match I play, am I able to pivot and find good soft checks to this mon?
    How common is max hp and does it increase its survivability to an unreasonable degree?
    How unpredictable are its roles/movesets, is it pigeon holed into running x attack?

    When I have better tested the answers to these questions I'll give my conclusions.
     
  8. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    Couple things.

    1) The first test, in my opinion, was handled poorly by the OU leaders (an I was still leader back then, it was right before I left). The thread was one-sided because it was done pre-maturely and the metagame hadn't properly settled. Our goal is to give pokemon that are suspect a fair shake and, in my opinion, Hoopa never got that. It is fairly likely that it may remain banned after this, but at least it will be done the right way. If, by chance, the council - given what is discussed in the thread and the individual's own opinions - believes that Hoopa isn't banworthy, then it will stay in the tier. This is like any other retest and it is a proper one on the grounds of the initial suspect being handled sub-optimally. Any further questioning of the retest will not only be deleted, but it will be infracted, too.

    2) Hoopa may be good and hard to counter, but it isn't an unstoppable force that gets a kill every time you switch it in unless certain circumstances are met, you're playing/building poorly, and/or it's like CB or LO mixed against offense and well-played (insert prediction two way street argument here etc.), which means it's not likely to get in more than once if at all b/c it's fairly frail and offense is generally quicker and stronger, so yea.. - point is that anyone trying to overhype it and disregard the key downsides of Hoopa will have their argument invalidated, to some extent, given that it is not a realistic perspective of the pokemon. Use it before saying "oh it's too good". The same goes for the other side, too. Just because you think it's too slow, too vulnerable on the physical side, etc. doesn't mean it's not broken on other fronts such as power, versatility, etc. - use it before saying it's not broken. This is a proper retest and, like a proper suspect, you have to be informed and knowledgeable before leaving your comments - thank you!

    3) All of the council will be actively patrolling this and posting on occasion (more discussion will go on in our personal chat), but we ASSURE you that everything discussed here will factor into our decision, so PLEASE voice your opinions at as much length and in as much detail as you wish so we can have the best suspect possible - thank you and enjoy discussing!
     
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  9. Edna

    Edna Christmas Time Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Couple things

    1) Just because both the TL didn't want it banned but literally everyone did doesn't mean you should resuspect it, this is just a facade to say "hey we did a decision Smogon didn't take, so they must be right" ( also it got 50%+ as far I know )
    This is just a way of smogonizing PO OU because you like Smogon. Also for a suspect that lasted one month, i'm quite sure everyone had the time to test it so I still don't get the point??

    2) yeah lol pls ask balance to counter it or even to check it without losing a mon everytime and we'll talk about it. If your only way of dealing with it is sacking a mon then revenge killing it I wonder who's teambuilding sucks at that moment ( I usually get around 3 kills vs Balanced so just don't say shit just to make people believe it's healthy ). Stall is helpless to Dark spam coming from a 160+ atk 160+ spe atk mon, literally how do you counter it? Or maybe stall is a shit teambuilding ok. The only playstyle it struggles with is offense and pursuit trapper, it has access to a huge spe def for an offensive mon and 80 speed ain't that shit, it's already more than Bisharp and Breloom and we know how they are good

    3) until now all what the council did was talking on private, reopening a suspect without giving another argument that "it's fine on PS" and that Finch quitted before demolishing less solid posts ( also i like the effect it's less likely to resuspect Finch :) ) and no transparency was ever done in any of your actions. Don't be surprised if a lot of people are skeptical about how you're running PO OU at the moment because this is the only aspect you've shown. With all my respect to you this is just a bad way of tiering.
     
  10. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    i 90% disagree with the post above, the ban while has it's merits was done very quickly poorly and was done before the ou metagame had a chance to settle.

    I agree finchs actions in the past were bad tiering, he banned the pokemon quickly without letting the metagame to settle, however this unban gives us a chance to properly test the pokemon and dicuss the ban properly. So can people please stop this nonsense and actually test things instead of this hate posting.


    Well done ou council for having the guts to proper test something, what ever the outcome of this ban, this seems like a more logical and fair approach, instead of the witch hunts that had become of po's ban system. I would like to personally thank you for returning this system to more of a less bias system as it was.


    Now to the actual discussion

    Hoopa-u is a huge nuke on both sides, that is usally used a phyical nuke. It's most threatign aspect is to spam hyperspace fury. Using ps's ladder they seem to check it with a scarf ttar. To prevent it from spamming hyperspace fury, This check works in 2 ways it prevents hoopa-u from just coming in and killing somethng. If it does they lose there nuke, which is likly a key pokemon they don't want to lose. The second way is that u can just switch ttar into the said attack, however they can predict you and drain punch or w/e. This downgrade the scarf ttar set from a counter to a pressuring check.

    damage is done under the asumption hoopa-u has used hyperspace fury
    252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 169-201 (56.1 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
    252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. -1 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 339-400 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 283-333 (94 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. -1 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 424-499 (140.8 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    in return

    160 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 437-515 (128.1 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    160 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 86-101 (25.2 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    160 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 86-101 (25.2 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    the sets in question are the standard life orb sets from smogon

    here is the choice band set
    252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 105-124 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- 58.4% chance to 3HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 131-155 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 524-620 (153.6 - 181.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Another good check to the phyical set is a def mega scizor

    96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Mega Scizor: 146-173 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO
    160 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 88-104 (25.6 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Mega Scizor: 82-97 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 96% chance to 4HKO

    in return

    84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 165-195 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    84 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 177-209 (58.8 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    given the hoppa will suffer hazards on entry and life orb damage it will lose atleast 90% of it's health, which is a fair trade, if it predicts right that is. If it doesn't dark pulse on switch in it's forced out, and if they don't have hazards out they likly can't 2hko


    another ok check is sp def talon to the lifeorb set

    96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 173-204 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    160 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 250-294 (69.6 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 195-230 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    160 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 78-92 (21.7 - 25.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

    while not a great check it loses if rocks are up, it can wear down the hoppa due it's own life orb and then force out or deal massive damage with bb

    0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 183-216 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    another check is sp def dnite or choice band nite

    96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 94-112 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO
    160 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 97-115 (30 - 35.6%) -- 33% chance to 3HKO
    96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 107-127 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO

    with rocks up
    96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 188-224 (58.2 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    160 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 195-230 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 214-253 (66.2 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO hp left is 243 so a highish roll will kill

    in return

    252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 247-291 (82 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 555-654 (184.3 - 217.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    vs sp def set

    160 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 98-116 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- 4.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 77-90 (20.4 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
    96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 86-102 (22.8 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

    can switch in and dd in all cases

    if hoppa says in after it dd's
    +1 64+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 324-382 (107.6 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 64+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound in Harsh Sunshine: 304-358 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    if they threat to switch to a steel type fire punch still ohkos it

    you can also chance a roost
    since 30+60-12 is 78% damage if you roost your on 72% none of it's hits can deal 72%

    you can also get sneaky with your sets and make your own it took me about 1 min to come up with a mega aero set thats checks it

    96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 162 HP / 34 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 191-226 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 162 HP / 34 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 216-255 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    160 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 162 HP / 32 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 103-122 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 38.5% chance to 3HKO
    160 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Drain Punch vs. 162 HP / 32 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 130-153 (38.1 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    in return

    68+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 273-322 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

    guranteed ko after life orb or rocks

    it also has roost
    to heal back up after the switch in and wear down the hoop-u more


    another offensive check, is dugtrio

    252 Atk Dugtrio Revenge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

    switchs in and kills with reversal that is 100% kill chance after switching in and being reduced to 1%

    160 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dugtrio: 235-277 (116.9 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    which all of hoopa's attacks do

    tl'dr all these pokemon make it hard for hoopu to just come in and kill something, and proves hoop-u can be delt with, and you don't auto lose the second they switch it in once
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
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  11. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    The problem with most checks that you mention kland, is that they fail to either prediction or can't check when SR are up. Scarf TTar is an okay check, but you have to go through 2 50/50s first (assuming prediction is a 2-way street), because you have to switch in to a move that doesn't kill, and then win the Crunch/Pursuit 50/50 as well, because Pursuit doesn't KO if Hoopa stays in. Def Mega Scizor is a great check, but I've seen lures with HP Fire, even though it's very rare. SpDef Dragonite is very rare in the current meta and has a ~20% chance to get OHKOd after SR by Hyperspace Fury.

    Also, on the Dark Pulse vs Hyperspace Fury debate: Hyperspace Fury is a must imo. Most physical walls don't have a Psychic resistance, so you can hit them hard with Psychic anyway. Hyperspace Fury hits through Protect (and apparently through Substitute as well), which is incredible vs common Wish/Protect mons found on most stall teams. It also allows you to plow through Gliscor with much more ease.
     
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  12. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    for the sake of debate i was just using the most common sets, hoopa-u is a nuke and nukes generally won't deviate there movepools, as it makes nuking harder. They want the least amount of switchs in possible not team choice switchs in. The whole point of a nuke is the least amount of safe siwtch ins apposed to something like greninja which is a cleaner, they is more likly to diverse from it's switch in, ad i agree i think hyperspace fury is the betetr choice howeer the optimal nuke set doesn't run it, i just wanted to start a debate instead of the nonsense that was happening above,

    if you give me 24 hours i can probably get a better check list, i was just running a few possibly switchs in that don't die right away, if you run 2-3 switch in that won't get ohkoed or 2hkoed and force it out, without needing much effort it's threat level is reduced alot, somethign alot of people with disregaurd. Since theory mon never takes into account of actual game play.

    During an actual game if you force a nuke to switch out without it killing something2-3 the team with the nuke loses alot of pressure. They need to swap somethign in they get worn down and there nuke won't be able to survive a hit anymore so anythign faster them it will not care about it, at this point it often doesn't matter if the nuke kilsl everything slower. Because there team will most likly have less gas left allowing the other team just to stream over the team.

    This is one of the key reasons why suspect threads are bias towards nukes. Nukes by there very nature are hard to check, however they often don't have alot of speed or bulk, so once worn down there impact on the game is servly crippled. They often won't or can't switch in, so getting nukes in is hard enough as it is, and forcing them out with little game undermines the pokemons use.


    so forgive me if i don't feel like u need a super hard check t nukes, simply because they shouldn't exist.

    take garde for example it's just as big as nuke as hoopa is, but it flew under the radar when it came out and once it settled in people realized it wasn't a huge threat, as they could just force it out and limits it's impact on the game. The same logic applies to hoop-u but this logic is never applied during suspects and only calcs and theory mons 1 on 1.


    lets look what makes a nuke fair,

    -a nuke should require some team support to be able to switch in freely and have the pokemon worn down or weak enogh to ohko and force a switch

    -a a nuke should have meh bulk, espically on one side and ok bulk on the other side

    -a nuke should be able to outpace a good percentage of the bulkier pokemon and have a fair chance of not being ohkoed by them

    -a nuke should only be able to hit one side of the spectrum hard

    -the side of the spectrum it hits, it should ko most walls, additonally it should ko most walls of the other side

    -should be easily rev'd and pressured

    -should only spam 1-2 moves with 1-2 moves side coverage, if it fails this it shouldn't be classed a nuke, but a wallbreaker.

    -some nukes can be wallbreakers, but all wallbreakers ain't nukes


    -list of nukes according to kland in ou

    mega hera
    mega cham
    mega garde
    hoopa-s
    vcitini with sun support

    now the only real difference between hoop-u and these other nukes is the abllity to hit on both sides, which most nukes wouldn't really care about, it's abillity to hit though protect, and not be killed by protect makes it alot better than cham.

    However 3 of the other nukes wouldn't care too much about protect. Hera has great buk for a nuke, but suffers from the least attack power of the nukes, and is very much closer to a wall breaker

    how i would rank the nukes

    mega hera b+: it's only upside is the great buk, and decent movepool, it suffes 4mss, lack of power and it requires the mega stone for it's role

    mega cham c: probably the strongest f the nukes, suffers from use of mega stones and dies to protect, dying to protect is a huge weakness that a nuke shouldn't have, without it's hjk it loses alot of power and can't be a nuke anymore

    Mega garde s: no real weakness of a nuke, nearly a perfect nuke apart from use of mega stone

    hoopa-s s: The only nuke to not require a mega stone currently makes it extremly valuible, however it's still locked into 1-2 items choice band and life orb the latter loses hp, which a nuke slightly cares about, the abillity to hit on both sides is useful but not over amazing, because of the type of pokemon it is. It's the second slowest nuke which hurts it slightly, however it doesn't matter a huge lot. Overall a very dangerous mon that should be threated with respect

    victini c: was alot better nuke last gen lack of sun support options makes it rather hard to use
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  13. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Hoopa and Gardevoir fulfill similar roles yeah, but Gardevoir actually has some good checks/counters (basically any bulky Steel type that's not weak to Focus Blast, so (Mega) Scizor/Jirachi/SpDef Skarm, even though they can be crippled by WoW). Most importantly, Mega Gardevoir takes up your Mega slot, so there is an opportunity cost in running it that Hoopa doesn't have.

    What you say is true though; if your nuke doesn't kill at least 1 mon or severely weaken a team for a cleaner, it's a useless nuke. Hoopa requires some prediction, although 80 base speed is usually enough to outrun most walls you're supposed to break. It requires some team support to get in though, especially vs offensive teams, as it's horribly frail on the physical side, is worn down quickly by LO recoil and hazards, and has a terrible defensive typing.
     
  14. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    skarm is generally 2hkoed

    232+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 111-132 (33.2 - 39.5%) -- 20.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    232+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 153-181 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    any proity damage or rocks clean 2hko, hyper voice into focus blast is atleast 86% damage is not a great check since garde is faster. Skarm can be taunted wisp and doesn't ko back and if it does bb it put into clean ko range. This makes skarm a very bad check however it can possibly wear down garde which is progress

    jirachi is slightly harder usally easy to taunt the wish then switch but i'm slightly more bias to this as i've used garde alot

    232+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    and scizor is very hard for garde to deal with

    overall, i do agree garde may have some more checks than hoopa it also has more power and can spam more often.
     
  15. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    SpDef Skarm usually runs Iron Head over BB to better deal with Gard and Mega Diancie. Also FB has 70% accuracy, so you have a 49% chance to hit 2 in a row (statistically, we all know from experience that it's more like 0.0000000000000001% in practice).
     
  16. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    thats not the point it can hyper voice into focus blast and if your not 100% your dead, is the whole point, while this is true for some of the things i listed it's mostly due to rocks, which hoopa-u+haazards is appearing to be very strong,

    the question we need to be address is hoopa-u strong enough for it's role to merrit a ban,


    given it' role as a nuke it needs to be outstanding as it's role, have more or less 0 effective switchs in that also produce a good outcome for th team that gives the user such an advantage for running, that it either overcentralize the metagame or it's too power for it's role in ou


    now lets address the points of what makes a nuke fair.

    1. Does it overcentralize the metagame. It was banned too soon , for the metagame to settle to see whenever or not it does.


    2. is it too powerful for it's role. This is the only current ban critera, i agree it's very strong for it's role, but lets address what makes it fair and find points where it isn't fair

    so far we have

    1- seemly have less possible switchs in
    2- doesn't require the use of a mega stone
    3- hits both sides hard, although this isn't a huge deal given, it helps and adds creditals to this pokemon

    however are those 3 points enough to merit the ban. Do we need more? I was able to give some potential switchs in at the start that neturalize it's impact on the game once or twice, admittly they were hazard weak

    so this is where theorymons draws it's limits and we need to see the impact od hoopa-u+hazards in play. Althought nukes are generally used with hazard layers to prevent any switch ins.


    can people get logs of the impact of hoop-u vs your teams so we can see the potential of hoopa-u in action.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
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  17. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I've been very busy lately,
    This is the problem I have with your argument. Test things in the tier we are discussing for yourself instead of reading somebody else's irrelevant analysis. Pokemon are just pokemon; either good (viable) or bad (shit). To focus just on something as a "nuke" (you mean offensive presence) is a very narrow way to look at something that interacts with the tier on many levels.
     
  18. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    i very much disagree with pokemon either being viable or shit, there are plenty of occasions where a less viable pokemon would be better on your team, than the same role of pokemon of higher rank. Now you assuming hoopa-u does more than hit hard, how does it interact on the metagame, apart from hitting hard. It doesn't lay hazards, it doesn't come in to absorb hits, and frankly it doesn't out pace fast cleaners. It can't use wish support, nor is it good at scouting most sets. What it does do is take down bulky slower pokemon that have to try to switch into it.

    Can you give me solid proof hoopa-u does more than just hit hard, can you give me proof that pokemon are either shit or good. I know many good players who use pokemon that are pretty much unheard of in a metagame and have used them well, and they have preformed well. I don't have logs of this, well i do but it would take me hours to dig, however i am sure the ou council will agree with this statement. Actually finch for example is a good user of rhyperior, which we would all agree to be subpar, yet he uses it well and it performs well. So i find the notion of pokemon either to be shit or viable very incorrect.
     
  19. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    "Subpar" and "unviable" are two COMPLETELY different ideas. Entei is "subpar" because a lot of the things it does well Charizard or Talonflame can do better. Flareon is unviable because there is virtually no reason you would ever run it over the aforementioned trio as well as other Pokemon like Victini, Infernape, Arcanine, or other Eeveelutions. And on a related note, the term "viable" means "has a legitimate reason to be used over other potential competitors for the same teamslot". It is literally impossible for a Pokemon to be unviable yet still worth using. The only situation where that can even be remotely close to possible is if the player base as a whole mistakenly believes that a certain Pokemon is unviable when it actually has a solid niche or something of the sort.
     
  20. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    charizard, entei and talon only share typign they serve totally different roles and should not be compard thats a silly thing to do.

    if pokemon that shared the same typing could do the same role, normal arcues could be a chansey, steel arcues a ferro, ground arcues a primal groundon.

    lets get back on to the actual topic which is hoopa-u lets stop side tracking, no1 has yet to post any meaningful information for hoopa-u apart from me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016
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  21. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    I've been tested and seen the performance of Hoopa-U over these days. Insane 160/170 offensive stats, amazing movepool, Good 130 Sp. Def and Psychic imunity.


    Initially I did not see differences of opinion about Hoopa-U completely destroy Stall and Balanced, teams where the 6 mon usually have less speed. Just choose a set: CB, LO 4 atk or LO Subs + 3 ATK (really good) and destroy the opposing team.
    As Hyperspace Fury ignores Protect, the opponent can not risk a "scout" for a possible Choice set, allowing create a Substitute and attack safely, or spam a devastating hit.

    So I believe it is only necessary to say as Hoopa-U is still very useful against Offense:

    1) Partner Volt-Turn = Mega Manectric and Tornadus-T form a fast and good Volt-Turn against Offense, gaining momentum until Hoopa-U can enter and be destructive, because can take almost any special hit.

    2) Partner Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, Iron Barbs = Punishing physical attackers to do contact, reducing the longevity of offensive checks of Hoopa-U.

    3) Glare / Thunder Wave spam = Serperior, Clefable and Klefki can spam Glare and Thunder Wave to make the opposing team slower than Hoopa-U, Hoopa-U enter in battle and cause many KO.

    4) Choice Scarf = With Choice Scarf, speed Hoopa-U is enough to overcome Mega Manectric, Tornadus-T, Weavile, Gengar, and make it a threat to offense.


    Switch and "Counter"

    Mandibuzz = Standart Mandibuzz can change in "smogon sets" Hoopa-U, but against a set full Atk and Stealth Rock on the field, Gunk Shot (without STAB or Super Effective) has 94.5% chance to 2HKO. Furthermore, 96 SpA Thunderbolt easily 2HKO. Still OHKO Keldeo and Skarmory after Srock.

    Landorus-T = can make a primary switch, but no more than that. Hoopa-U can run HP Ice.

    Ferrothorn = Can make a primary switch set standart Hoopa-U, but can not do it against a 252 Atk Drain Punch / HF + Hazard damage or Fire Punch.

    Mega Scizor = It's 2HKO even you can switch and check with Bullet Punch if Hoopa is -1 Def.

    Klefki = Can only do one or two switches, without presenting a threat, just a Thunder Wave and because it has no recovery except Leftovers is not a durable check.

    Weavile / Tyranitar Pursuit = Can not risk a switch in Drain Punch, and if Hoopa-U remain in the field, survives a Pursuit -1 Def. Making the situation just a 50/50.


    In conclusion:

    The "Flaws" (Speed only average, low defense, without priority, Trait practically useless) in "Hoopa-Ubers" are not enough to "overshadow" its qualities: flexible, unpredictable and with a immense firepower.
    Literally, the few who can get in Hoopa-U do only once, as Landorus-T, Klefki or Mandibuzz. Once in the field, just choose which Pokémon will fall against Hoopa-U for the match continues.

    Be a mega or no, Hoopa-U is still very powerful for Over Used tier, can cause a huge damage in basically everything, making the tier less competitive.

    Stay in Ubers.
     
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  22. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    What kind of sets is this thing actually running? I haven't seen any CB.

    Like what kind of coverage, EVs, etc. is it using? What kind of Pokemon are supporting or supported by it? I haven't played OU in a while and I haven't quite been able to get a grasp on it. Is it good on VoltSwitch like OSP said? A lot of the arguments on both sides seem to place it in a vacuum, or at least it seems that way to me :x

    Using it so far it seems ridiculously good against stall and decent against balance, but I'm no OU expert.
     
  23. Edna

    Edna Christmas Time Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    VoltTurn is good vs Balance and stall, cause it allows you to change your mon on a predicted switch
    CB goes Ada/Jolly with Hyperspace Gunk Drain punch and Fire Punch usually

    But with the rise of the Garchomp rocky and stuff like that, VoltTurn is usually more risky I guess. Though against team that lack Ground mon Manec/Torn-T will be extremely good
     
  24. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    @sulcata
    The best set imo is LO + 4 atts, which runs max speed, enough att EVs to OHKO defensive Clef with Gunk Shot and puts the rest into SpAtk, which gives it roughly equal attack and special attack. The moveset it usually runs is Dark Pulse or Hyperspace Fury / Gunk Shot / Drain Punch / Psychic, which means it can hit on both sides of the spectrum. Common support mons for this are VoltTurn cores to bring it in safely, and para spreaders to help with the speed issue.

    It can run an AV set as well, as it has an amazing 130 base SpDef and semi-reliable recovery in Drain Punch. Scarf/CB/Specs(?)/NP are also possibilities, but are used less often.
     
  25. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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  26. Zamrock

    Zamrock - OUTL

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    Okay, time to give my honest thoughts.

    First off, I decided to create this thread because of the main fact there was a mistake in not giving Hoopa-U a proper chance to witness what it can do in the metagame. Yes, smogon did play a roll here as they allowed it to be played on the ladder and in competitive tours so see how it functions. After studying Hoopa more closely, it looked like it was manageable and wasn't termed "unbeatable," so the council and I decided to give it another test. I apologize for past confusion and issues regarding to the last suspect for Hoopa-U.

    Now on to my personal opinions of Hoopa. I love offensive mons so I do enjoy using Hoopa as its coverage is basically perfect, has the ability to 2hko most of the walls in OU with few however powerful sets including Life Orb 4 atk or 3 atk sub, Choice Band/Specs, Choice Scarf to handle vs some opposing offensive teams, and even the rare Trick Room set to handle both balance AND offense. However, as I know this statement will be a strange comparison, Hoopa-U kind of reminds me of Rampardos, it's strong as hell however slow and worn down way too quickly for it to be an "unstoppable force." Base 80 Speed honestly doesn't do much in the metagame where it's mainly based on Speed. Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, Garchomp (offensive), Mega Pinsir, Keldeo, Weavile, Scarf TTar, etc. all dominant the metagame, all with the ability to crush Hoopa-U and it's base 60 Defense before it punches holes into your team. This was the reason why I mentioned Trick Room, even though it does require some predictions, you will not have to rely on Choice Scarf to remain locked into a move and get Pursuit Trapped and still manage itself in gameplay. I've mentioned this in the Metagross suspect as well, its lack of recovery to maintain it's position as a threat. If it's Life Orb, there is no way for it to sweep teams unless you're playing a very poor built balance/stall team and the choice sets if locked into the wrong move are easily trapped by common pursuiters.

    This comment annoys me. Both Hoopa-U and Mega Mawile are completely different in terms of the roles they perform. Mega Mawile is slow however its defense isn't "shit" at all as its excellent typing allows it to switch into a variety of mons which hoopa cannot, being things like Scarf TTar and Weavile which it beats on its own without being scared of pursuit. It's great vs offense because it gets access to a move Hoopa-U doesn't: Sucker Punch. Yes, this 1 move completely separates Mega Mawile from Hoopa because with this and its access to Swords Dance, it plays a better 50/50 game versus opposing offensive teams to get extra kills, making Mega Mawile more of a threat than Hoopa-U will ever be.

    In terms of whether or not to keep Hoopa-U banned, I'm neutral. If we bring it back, I'm not going to complain as I know it is manageable to play versus assuming my team isn't dogshit. If we keep it banned, the metagame doesn't become so pursuit-trapping dependent on your balance and even your stall teams. I'm leaning more towards unbanning because of manageability. I'm probably missing a couple of things but I'll work on that later if need-be, for now please continue your discussions and I hope we can make a fair decision for all of the ORAS OU players of PO.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
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  27. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    While I regret not having the opportunity to do so sooner, both for this suspect and the one prior, I'd like to weigh in on Hoopa-U and its place in the OU metagame.

    Let me begin by reiterating a bit of what has already been said, and condensing what I feel are Hoopa-U's greatest and most relevant strengths. Hoopa is, first and foremost, a powerful wallbreaker with excellent coverage and an expansive move pool. Base 160/170 offensive stats are fearsome, even by Gen 6 standards and even despite current metagame trends towards offense; equipped with a Life Orb or Choice Band, all of its attacks, especially its STAB Hyperspace Fury, hit very hard. This leaves very few pokemon capable of truly "countering" Hoopa-U, and while it does have a handful of "hard checks" depending on its coverage and item, Hoopa-U can circumvent these checks in certain cases by running alternative coverage. Hoopa-U may also perform other functions for a team aside from merely wallbreaking. Having access to Knock Off gives it a bit more of a utility role (at the cost of some power), and it can even support the team with Thunder Wave, Toxic or Trick Room, though these options are rare and/or niche. Not only is Hoopa-U's primary coverage unresisted (Dark/Fighting/Psychic), but it hits from both sides of the attacking spectrum very hard; after a Nasty Plot, a +2 SpA Hoopa-U can sweep slower teams with relative ease. Furthermore, Hoopa-U can make use of a Choice Scarf set to be more effective against Offensive teams, which normally have multiple threats to out-pace and kill its more common sets, and has great synergy on Volt-Turn teams to enter in and out of play.

    With all of that being said, I feel Hoopa-U has flaws that are not only readily apparent but severely crippling, probably to an extent greater than people acknowledge on paper. Hoopa-U has atrocious physical defense, and given that most of its common sets run a -Def nature, you essentially concede to being OHKO'd or left with maybe 1-2 Life Orb hits after taking even neutral common physical attacks. This is important because while it's true that it isn't the only wallbreaker with high offensive stats and weak defenses, 140 defense is really pathetic and it makes the "1-for-1" game way more favorable towards your opponent than the Hoopa-U user. It may have the speed to out-pace fat walls that it wants to weaken, but almost every offensive pokemon is running 285+ in a Hoopa-U metagame (e.g. Kyu-B and Zard X as two examples), and although it does hit quite hard even without a Life Orb, the loss of power without an offensive boosting item can at times be the difference between an OHKO and a near-OHKO... which usually leads to Hoopa-U losing the 1-for-1 trade. There will always be situations where this is not the case, but I've tested it fairly extensively the last couple weeks and I don't enjoy losing my wallbreaker (with minimal prior damage) to something I should have killed outright. Hoopa-U may have a wide movepool but if you've been following the sets players are using, there's a difference between having a lot of useful moves at your disposal versus having the potential to meaningfully work them into a set that makes sense. From my experience, Hoopa-U only really has its final move slot to choose the coverage it needs aside from Dark + Fighting + Psychic. If you forgo Gunk Shot, you're not easily getting past Azumarill, Clefable or Altaria. If you forgo Thunderbolt/Thunder (rare anyway), Mandibuzz becomes arguably a soft-counter. If you don't run Fire Punch, you're not going to get past things like bulky Mega Scizor or Klefki as easily, or at all. Tyranitar beats all sets without fighting coverage (Chople T-tar just wins), and can pursuit trap Hoopa rather easily, while things like Keldeo, Mega Venusaur or Conkeldurr are at worst soft-checks if you lack Psychic coverage.

    Hoopa-U's choice of item only compounds this problem, and as I feel this is Hoopa-U's greatest flaw, I'd like to talk about this point alone. First, I feel that unlike many other wallbreakers, Hoopa-U has to pick and choose which playstyles against which it will be useful and against those which it will be hardly useful at all. A Choice Scarf set does remedy the problem against offensive teams somewhat, but it's not as if offensive teams don't already trade 1 for 1, have access to powerful priority + T-wave or Pursuit trapping capabilities and a reliance on skillful double switches to win games. Further, if Hoopa-U locks itself into a poor coverage move, the metagame right now will punish you very badly for creating too many of these "empty turns". I frequently hear that because Hoopa-U has usable special bulk, it is able to come in on certain neutral Special Attacks (e.g. Latios Draco Meteor) and ... then do what, exactly? It has a hard time coming into play without a Choice Scarf or Volt-Turn support, and if the only answer to this is "run Hoopa-U with Volt-Turn then", it says a lot about how "metagame-defining" Hoopa-U truly is, thriving best in situations with very specialized team support. It's not my main point, certainly, but we would never say about the other best pokemon in ORAS OU -- Clefable, Keldeo, M-Sableye, Zard X, etc. -- that they just lay an egg against every playstyle they aren't tailor-made to beat.

    Running a Scarf set also makes you very easy to counterplay against Stall and bulky balance teams -- the very teams that Hoopa-U is meant to pressure and pick apart. I was debating posting calculations to illustrate this point, but anyone who meaningfully tested it against a well-played stall team (on PO, of which I ran into many) would concede at least in part, if not in full, that Scarf Hoopa-U just doesn't do well against Stall. Hoopa-U's best/most popular set, Life Orb 4-Atk Wallbreaker, may not be quite so easily checked but it is easily forced out of play. It is outsped and killed by offensive Landorus-T, Scarf Jirachi and Tornadus-T, which are staples on many teams right now. I know this point has been beaten into the ground and it is often dismissed because "of course we know Hoopa is weak to bug, no one would leave it in!", but that's entirely my point: that you can't leave it in. You are constantly being forced in and out of play given your low speed and horrendous physical defense, and it costs you momentum against the types of offensive teams we see very frequently on the ladder right now.

    Looking at it from a more broad perspective, Hoopa-U does have an effect on the metagame that would be wrong to ignore. As I said before, 285+ speed is more of a benchmark now than it ever was before. It's also precisely because of how easily Hoopa-U may be forced out of play coupled with its raw power that many teams are offensive in nature, whereas many months ago it appeared that bulkier, balanced builds dominated the metagame (around the same time Zard X was unequivocally the biggest threat in ORAS OU). I have been using a very offensive team to help gauge Hoopa-U's influence on the metagame, and what I can tell you as one concession to the anti-OU crowd is that the point I made in an earlier post about "overloading" cores is definitely exacerbated by Hoopa-U's presence. Dark spam is even more potent than it already was, and for teams whose only answer to something like a Medicham, Diggersby, Bisharp, etc. is Garchomp, Ferrothorn or Landorus, these defensive tanks and pivots just don't have the muscle to handle the offensive pressure unless the entire team is more defensive in nature and/or played very skillfully. However, I don't know if it is entirely fair to say that this current trend is solely attributable to Hoopa-U's presence, and I don't feel good about using macro-level trends that come about and perpetuate for a variety of reasons to justify banning one individual pokemon. Seems like a fallacy of division to me - blaming the dynamic system of tiering as a whole on Hoopa-U, which is just one part of that system.

    All I can tell you is that if PO would like to see Hoopa-U remain banned, that sentiment will and ought to be acknowledged. Nonetheless, I would hope that it be for a reason greater than the move-pool it has, a simple yes/no list of checks and counters or its "uber-like" attacking stats (I still don't know what that means).
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
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  28. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    First off, I would like to discuss some general tiering philosophy and policy matters before getting into Hoopa-U. The initial thread happened right after the release of Hoopa-U and although it was up for about a month, that month happened to be the first month of Hoopa-U being in the metagame. People naturally are opposed to significant changes in the metagame that they have grown accustom to and that, therefore, skewed results. If you think about it, people thought that Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T were broken in BW2 initially while they thought that Landorus-T was going to be mediocre, maybe even go UU. By the time BW2 developed, they were only right on 1 of the 3 -- Tornadus-T was broken, Landorus-T turned into a top pokemon in the metagame, and Thundurus-T is an average pokemon in the tier, more or less. The point is that testing a pokemon that is newly introduced to the metagame for the first time is not an optimal method of tiering and that was a mistake that MetalGross and I made back then. Doing what we are doing now is the right thing, regardless of if it was banned with 51% of the community's approval or 100% of the community's approval back then. Anyone who has questioned that in an above post and continues to should refrain from doing so in the future, but I hope this, at very least, answers some of the questions in this regard. If anyone is still discontent, though, please contact me and we can discuss things so that PO OU can be as ideal as possible for the playerbase.

    Now, onto the suspect: Hoopa-U. I am under the impression that Hoopa-U is quite the threat in the metagame, but it isn't threatening to the extent that it is broken (that doesn't mean that we will not ban it, it simply means that my opinion is that it is not broken -- I will examine both sides and the suspect will make a decision to reflect the community's opinion (with justifiable logic taken into consideration), not my own individual opinion). Hoopa-U has four sets, arguably, with three "main" sets: Scarf, Band, LO, and Specs (Specs isn't as common, but some better players have been using it as of late and it's quite good, in my opinion). The Scarf set, similarly to scarf Genesect, is an effective measure against offensive teams and does a fair amount of damage, but it is by no means broken, nor able to consistently break teams or anything even close to that, therefore making it irrelevant to this discussion.

    With a movepool consisting of ridiculous variety, top-notch attacking stats, and the ability to pull off pretty much anything offensively, there's no doubt that Hoopa's breaker sets (LO and non-scarfed choice) are potent and worth consideration in a suspect. What I find to be the limiting factor is the fact that Hoopa-U lacks a combination of physical bulk and speed, making it nearly impossible to grab free turns without aggressive double switching, switching in after something dies, grabbing momentum from u-turn/volt switch, or pivoting in on one of a few things it can actually come in on (none of which are seen on offensive teams). I think a common fallacy is the "2hkos the whole metagame --> broken" argument and that also goes hand-in-hand with the "has no hard counters --> broken" argument as both of these arguments disregard the practical aspects of prediction, conditions being in the favor of one side or another, specific sets, etc...obviously some of these are two way streets, but when Hoopa needs to get in safely after something dies or on the 1-2 pokemon it can on the whole opponent's team and then click the proper move to predict the opponent perfectly and then it'll probably get a 2hko and force another prediction the next turn, it is nowhere near as foolproof a blatantly broken wallbreaker as so many of the above posters describe it to be. With that said, the above scenario is obviously tailored to the anti-ban side, but the point is more to devil's advocate to show the main flaw in the pro-ban arguments that they're not countering within their arguments. I still understand the merit in being such a potent wallbeaker and how it has a direct correlation to the brokenness of a pokemon, but I think that it is being overvalued and the remainder of the characteristics Hoopa-U happens to have are being overlooked, completely disregarded, or minimized in favor for the aforementioned and, therefore, many posters are giving an incomplete analysis of the pokemon as a whole in the metagame. There are plenty of opportunities for Hoopa to straight out break a wall/pokemon and then eventually snowball the team to victory as a resultant of that and there are plenty of opportunities for Hoopa to play some fundamental role in breaking the opponent's team, but like any other pokemon in the metagame, it has to be played properly and have a certain moveset to do so -- the argument to this on the pro-ban side is that it's more likely for hoopa to do this given what it has at its disposal in terms of movepool and attacking stats than other pokemon, which is true, but then you can go back to the fact that it lacks speed and physical bulk/general survivability to do so...so it see-saws back and forth. The bottom line is that I don't think Hoopa-U is as standout and broken as ya'll above sell it to be for the reasons I outlined in this paragraph, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over keeping it in the realm of broken pocket monsters up there in Ubers so I hope all your "finch is following Smogon" callout boners die down when you see the eventual verdict of this b/c the council will do what's best for the community and that appears to be keeping it an uber, so expect that decision in the near future unless the opinion of this thread drastically changes in the next couple days.

    finchout
     
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  29. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I agree with some parts of your analysis Finch, but not with everything. You're absolutely right that Hoopa has a hard time coming in without some kind of support, as it has very bad physical bulk and a terrible defensive typing (although the Psyshock immunity is really nice). In this sense, it's more like Mega Medicham (who also has trouble switching in) than Mega Gardevoir (who can switch in more easily due to a good defensive typing). Both Pokemon fulfill a similar role to Hoopa: punch holes in the enemy team. Hoopa has a slight advantage here in unrivalled coverage and not taking up a Mega-slot, which are both significant advantages over the Pokemon mentioned before.

    A common misconception in this discussion I feel, is that Hoopa needs to kill Pokemon to be effective. This is, in my opinion, not true. Hoopa is usually paired with dedicated cleaners (Mega Manetric and Mega Lopunny being great examples), as they benefit a lot from Hoopa's huge wallbreaking potential. That is: if Hoopa manages to get 3-4 mons at ~50% health, it has done its job for me, as the cleaner will have an easy time finishing the battle. This strategy is especially effective vs offensive teams, as they usually lack the recovery that balance teams have. Vs bulkier teams however, Hoopa can do the job fine by itself, as it will outspeed most common threats on balanced teams and it has the ability to 2HKO most of them, even without prediction. That I feel is what puts Hoopa over the edge: if you pair it with a cleaner, it's extremely good vs all playstyles, which is why it should be banned from OU.
     
  30. Edna

    Edna Christmas Time Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Sorry but according to your logic, we should retest Blaziken because the metagame is full of TankChomp, Mega Altaria and Talonflame. Did that ever got a chance? Not at all, not even discussed, not even tested when ORAS started meanwhile the metagame 'adapted'. Blaziken is less threatening in the offensive side but has the speed control that Hoopa doesn't, does that really make it more broken? I'm really asking because it seems like you're proving your points in the fact the metagame adapts and that we misjudge pokemon when they get released in a new metagame. I don't agree with that reasoning but if it's true then you should retest Blaziken, or else that would be some kind of hypocrisy to your point of view of tiering philosophy ( whatever that means ). I can accept you retest a Pokemon if you feel like in the Discussion thread there was massive demand of it ( and not only people of the council doing it) that would make sense like Metagross.


    finch edit: you blatantly miscoontrued what i was saying and tht comparison doesn't fit into my logic at all, but i'm busy rn so i won't respond to this quite yet, but you're trying to refute a long time tiering principal/precedent w/ retests and being handled maturely, js

    Carl edit: how can I refute something that didn't even got tested, what is the argument here to not retest it, nearly all pokemons got retest ( see Genesect, Manaphy ) and they got conclusion if they're healthy for the metagame or not, i'm fairly certain Blaziken didn't and you just keep it banned because it's an universal thing ( bar Smogon and PO idk if there's another tiering site ). I might not get your post but I can say the same about Blaziken being quickbanned and not given a shot to be tested in a metagame under development
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
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  31. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Ok. So i have a minute.

    Regardless of how applicable you think other evidence is, it's a different situation and therefore; irrelevant for many reasons.

    I believe Hoopa-B is broken in PO ORAS OU

    And I know this, not because it is some supper win con that wins matches by itself, or because it has no counters, but rather bc the tier is strait up better without it.
    Since its arrival, teams have become disgustingly similar in terms of pace, win conditions, and support. The meta with hoopa has become hyper centralized for a few reasons. One of the biggest reason is the current premium on physical attackers. Special attackers such as Gengar and Manectric can't even 2hko and will give hoopa free kills (bc no counters duh).
    252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 121-144 (33.2 - 39.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 136-161 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    This mon is frail by no means. It counters most special attackers while still being the best wallbreaker. It does not take up your mega making it that much more dangerous offensively. In order to consistently pressure hoopa, teams stack as many physical attackers as possible. You almost must run a garchomp or Landorus bc they fit this criteria and can stop volt turn spam (once again, "don't let hoopa come in" is your check). And tbh I think a game of uturn vs ground type is stale as hell.

    Then there is the sabaleye, or lack there of. The current meta's pace makes Meye almost unviable. The pace of the meta makes it better off having prio burn for said lando/chomp/exca/Gyra/MMeta. This is a pretty drastic tier shift after MEye was S level pre suspect. But now its desired archetype is basically extinct.

    And this gets at the heart of why Hoopa is unbalanced. The tier has become so speed centered that double scarf'er has become a new build. Hoopa b warps every part of the metagme around it. From pace to support to type coverage; teams are forced to check and double check any conceivable way of hoopa switching in safely. No other mon has so much influence on not only the mons of teambuilding, but also the archetype. This sim, unlike another unnamed one, has very little species diversity and this problem is only exacerbated with hoopa in the tier. Hoopa b single handedly limits the viability of countless strategies and and pigeon holes people into playing anti-meta. Because the tier is better without it, hoopa b should remain banned in ORAS OU

    If you are running scarf you should be running trick. This solves most wallbreaking problems while sweeping offense very easily. Even band likes trick over zen headbutt/ice punch, but that just goes to show the versatility. You could burn their choice hoopa and still get bopped by a trick
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2016
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  32. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    why is he trying to kill hoop-u with mediocare sp atts when the only bulk it has is sp def, thats like trying to kill a chansey with a gengar, it's a bad idea. Unless you want to lose than by all means go ahead

    and why would the metgame become speed intensvie if hopp-u is slow, that doesn't make sense. You only run scarfer to outpace cleaners such as manetric and zam, not slowish nukes. People use powerful 110 basers to kill powerful nukes.

    lets see most spec attackers

    gengar not 2hkoed
    man sure not 2hkoed
    latios 1-2 ohkoed depeing on the set
    252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    garde ohkoed
    232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 360-426 (119.6 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    keldo ohkoed
    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 348-411 (115.6 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    mega chard-y 1-2 ohkoed
    252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound in Sun: 252-297 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    serp 2hkoed it
    252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 118-139 (39.2 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    offensive starmie 2hkoed it
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 156-185 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    so does thundrus
    252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 149-177 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
    both zam's do fail to 2hko it
    volcarno does
    252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 484-576 (160.7 - 191.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    rain kingdra does
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 190-225 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound in Rain: 286-337 (95 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
    thundrus--t can
    252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 127-151 (42.1 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
    nidoking
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 149-177 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

    btw i just went down the tier usage stats and all but 2 pokemon in the top 100 of special attackers can 2hko it. That not bulky i'm sorry


    heck even ou susspoort latias can 2hko it
    184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 187-220 (62.1 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    supoort clef 2hkos it
    0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 156-186 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 161-191 (53.4 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO genagr actually does


    it's ohkoed by more than half the special attackers, which it's only good def, and u say it's not frail? Don't pick 1-2 pokemon and biasly say this isn't frail, when over half the commonly used special attackers kill it. It's also not much merit not beign 2-3 ohkeod by support poekmon as alot of strong offense attackers can not be 2-3'd by support and switch into actual attacks

    phyical attackers are always better than special attackers as they don't have a chansey to break. Most special attackers
    need to hit on the physical side.

    idk but where is the bulk on this pokemone? maybe it's phyical def great idea kland

    talon
    252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 396-466 (131.5 - 154.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 288-340 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    garchomp
    252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 276-325 (91.6 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 331-390 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed
    252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 328-387 (108.9 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 283-334 (94 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 313-370 (103.9 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 339-399 (112.6 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 278-329 (92.3 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 282-333 (93.6 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 902-1064 (299.6 - 353.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 555-654 (184.3 - 217.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 247-291 (82 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 306-363 (101.6 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 166-196 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 370-436 (122.9 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound in Rain: 414-487 (137.5 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 240-283 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 349-412 (115.9 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 329-387 (109.3 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 417-492 (138.5 - 163.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    LOL
    252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound in Rain: 273-322 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 261-307 (86.7 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    168 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 262-310 (87 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 201-237 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
    252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 285-335 (94.6 - 111.2%) -- approx. 75% chance to OHKO
    240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 648-763 (215.2 - 253.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 1820-2160 (604.6 - 717.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    244 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 356-421 (118.2 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound in Rain: 226-267 (75 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Darmanitan U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 544-644 (180.7 - 213.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    152+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 186-219 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 373-441 (123.9 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 Atk Crobat U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 312-368 (103.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound in Rain: 339-399 (112.6 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound in Rain: 188-224 (62.4 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 394-465 (130.8 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 714-842 (237.2 - 279.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    248+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound in Rain: 362-427 (120.2 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 419-495 (139.2 - 164.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    such amazing phycial bulk right there

    80/130 is acceptible bulk for non frailness usally, but poor typing giving it nothing it really resists is why it is consirdered frail, same reason kyu-b is considered not super bulky
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2016
  33. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    This has absolutely nothing to do with the line of logic I used. My logic only applies to a pokemon that is being newly introduced to the tier for the first time -- the point being that it should be treated carefully because it takes a while to fully explore it and its viability, impact on the metagame, etc...to gauge if it is broken or not. Obviously, Blaziken has been around since generation 3 and started generation 6 in OU, so it is nowhere near comparable...

    Anyway, a verdict has been reached - Hoopa-Unbound will remain in ORAS Ubers. Thanks to everyone for discussing and all.

    ps: to anyone thinking we followed smogon, hope you shut up now and in the future b/c we genuinely are doing what is best for our OU tier, not anyone else's!
     
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