1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Suspect Discussion - Moltres (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Aurist, Mar 17, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    540
    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of banning Moltres from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Moltres as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.

    [​IMG]
     
    Funbot28 and Edna like this.
  2. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    1,553
    PO Trainer Name:
    Edna
    Ok so I'll go first.

    Moltres has about 4-5 viable sets ( specs, scarf, Sub Roost 2 atks, Sub Wisp/Toxic, 3 atk LO roost) and all of them perform very well, I don't think there is one that pushes Moltres more than another one so i'll just say how it performs in the metagame.

    I'm a big fan of Moltres when it comes to wallbreak, without a powerfull Hurricane stab, Fire Blast and Hidden Power Grass for coverage, Moltres has basically all the tools it needs to be very performant.

    Its speed is decent, now that Noivern is no longer in LU, which is in my opinion a slow tier ( see: Emboar, Exploud, Dragalge, Hitmonlee) so it can very well use Scarf set.

    People might state Slowking and Rotom-H as counters, but they straight lose to the Sub Toxic set, they can check it at best, not counter it. Rhyperior checks non HP grass variants, but Hurricane specs deals a lot to the point you need to be Spe def to counter it efficiently.

    It needs support, which is not hard with Flygon, Mandibuzz, Hitmonlee and I feel at the moment it has a strong impact in the metagame.

    Even though Moltres puts a lot of pressure, I felt like it was manageable, until it got flame body and makes which pushes it over the edge, which is why i'm leaning toward a ban
     
    Aurist and Funbot28 like this.
  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,262
    Likes Received:
    430
    So, good to see this started while I was away and busy.

    Anyway, Moltres is one of those Pokemon that's been here for some of the longest time becoming a staple in the changing metagame, always finding someway of being managable to an extent due to some of the faster Pokemon that were around being able to contain it. However, over time it's kind of sat and waited while everything shifted to the point that now it's one of those Pokemon that easily can determine a game due to how you need to build a team to survive in the metagame, and how Moltres can easily take advantage of builds to just rip apart teams.

    I mean first and foremost is the dangerous Specs set, where you will have a hard time find most anything to live a Hurricane, and is a set and debate on Moltres presence in the tier alone based on what ifs with Hurricane actually hitting the mark or being the unfortunate storm that misses you barely. Even with the nerf to Hurricane's power, Moltres can 2 shot most of the tier with it easily (even some Pokemon that have resistance over flying moves). It's pretty much always do or die with the move, though under Specs you pretty much would need Assault Vest on some of your special tanks (i.e. Slowking, Dragalge) to safely tank for you. Access to U-Turn, having Flamethrower be a reliable and still very powerful STAB under Specs, and HP Grass for tackling the Rocks and Waters under safe precautions, it is pretty much a premier wallbreaker with great speed for the tier.

    Scarf does literally the same thing, just is an anti-offensive weapon. The lack of power from LO and Specs means it actually has some troubles and struggles against some well made bulky team combinations.

    Then you have your sub sets, where Sub helps prevent against status, and gives you that extra turn to take damage to possibly net something with a 2hko from STAB + auxiliary move depending on what you aim to hit, though accuracy can be a let down yet again, which brings in the if it hits and keeps the sub vs. lose the sub because you miss, thus you lose momentum argument appears again. As far as the status sub sets go, can be irritating, though with useful poison absorbers like Nidoqueen and Draglagle being top in the tier, and I guess a lesser option in Drapion (who can be slightly bulky and useful against these types of sets), you have useful but limited support against it with these (only because you can't use Steel types against Fire Bird God).

    Finally you got the LO 3 attack set where you can spam Hurricane and alternate with Flamethrower at the cost of some power because it's not specs. Still highly effective in mid game though after things take some hits, and comes down to actually yet again hitting Hurricane more often than not. It relies on Roost to stay alive and keep a sweep going sometimes, because Moltres can force switches easily and take the healing turn. Though a LO set can also run its own Sunny Day set up to be even more dangerous with a Fire attack if you don't necessarily need to spam Hurricane anymore, and since it learns Solarbeam is now effectively more deadly to Rock and Water types, because again you can kind of force easy switches to those types of Pokemon with Moltres, as there are almost no other options to effectively check it, except relying on some RNG to come into play that says Hurricane shall miss all the needed hits.

    Anyway enough rambling, basically we have a full offensive stop to it in Rotom-H, and the only way its working around it is using Toxic (very limited), especially because while it might get a Toxic, Rotom-H just Volt Switch can kill the sub, go to something else offensive to scare Moltres off and set up. Slowking is another effective strong Check Mon, though it kind of needs the luck of Moltres not hitting 2 Hurricanes or being entirely AV so it doesn't care if Moltres hits, and a Toxic set would just play Pressure stall with it. A full SpDef Milotic can check, though with other better water type options in general, it's difficult to actually push it forward to use when just every other water type has an easy niche to use for healing a team or tanking other hits. Could always bring up the ever present Regirock/Lanturn arguments to check it, though neither fair well against the rest of the tier, which is somewhat limited as niche options for just one Pokemon. Everything else just kind of burns against the bird if it hits the mark, or Moltres becomes dead weight because it can't hit to save your battle life.

    There are offensive options, Jolteon, Virizion (with Stone Edge), Delphox, In a way Mega Glalie, various scarf Pokemon all capable of handling/checking Moltres effectively, though they all literally require them to be out against Moltres, because there's no safe way for most of them to be out, and are strictly revenge killing options requiring the help of SR to further prevent Moltres from well being Moltres.

    At this point depending on where your views lie, Moltres is literally a crapshoot of a Pokemon where if it gets the small bit of RNG to hit the deadly move it has, then there's a strong chance your team is just going to get blown away by its high power and decent speed, and there's pretty much no recovering from it in most cases. On the other hand if misses, well Moltres in essence just becomes a huge liability, and may have just costed you a match, because the RNG did nothing for you and you just have shit luck. I honestly feel its just kind of limiting just by existing, to allow it to remain in the tier just based on a literal crapshoot that doesn't maintain an actual balance of play to the tier at all.
     
    Purpleseamonkey and Aurist like this.
  4. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    540
    With enough time passed and a clear consensus, Moltres will be banned from LU.

    Thanks to all who took part.
     
    Edna likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.