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Sand Rush Retest (Unbanned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Xdevo, Mar 22, 2016.

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  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    [​IMG]
    Thanks to Strudels for the vry good image.
    I talked about this a while ago, and here it is!


    Sand Rush is being retested in NU. It will be allowed back on the ladder shortly and will be tested over the next few weeks.

    Discuss Sand Rush's effect on the metagame and whether it should or should not be completely unbanned (or if some other ban should be put in place instead of Sand Rush).
     
  2. DracoNova

    DracoNova Cherlene's #1 fan

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    late but here it goes,
    the retest of sand rush has made some Pokemon most notably stoutland to hit the tier hard. Sand Rush doubles the Pokemon's speed while sand is in play giving the Pokemon the upper hand in speed. The problem is not sand rush but the pokemon that abuses it specifically stoutland.

    [​IMG]
    252Atk/4Spd/252Spe with adamant nature,choice band,sandrush
    -return
    -crunch
    -superpower
    -wild charge

    stoutland's great Atk stats and good coverage moves gives him the ability to break almost everything in the nu tier, and with sand rush, it makes it extremely hard to revenge kill. Stoutland outspeeds the whole NU tier when sand is up, outspeeding scarf mons such as sawk and magmortar aswell as setup sweepers at +1 Spe (such as vivillon and lilligant). Its overall bulk allows it take on many priority hits awell only being 2koed by hitmonchan's mach punch. Basically, it punches holes in offensive, balanced and stall teams 2KOing most defensive pokes(vileplume,vaporeon,registeel and weezing).

    Sandslash benefits greatly from sand rush as well but is by all means not broken. It has inferior atk and speed stats, less bulk and has less coverage than stoutland.

    I am leaning more on Banning Stoutland than banning Sand rush as a whole as it is the only pokemon that truly is broken with sand rush, and banning Smooth rock isn't a complete solution as hippopotas still has good enough bulk(even better with eviolite) to spam sand.
     
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  3. E.T.

    E.T. SSSSSSSSSSSSS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Personally, I'm fine with Sand Rush staying banned. Really, the only Sand Rush users are Stoutland, who would be broken with Sand Rush, Sandslash, who would probably be okay, Drilbur and Herdier, who would probably be bad but not completely unusable, and Sandshrew who isn't viable. However, if Sand Rush is unbanned, Stoutland would need to immediately be quick banned because Sand Rush Stoutland shenanigans don't need to come back into the tier.

    Basically, for what the tier gets out of this decision, it is Stoutland without Sand Rush vs Sandslash, Drilbur, and Herdier with Sand Rush and no Stoutland at all. I would be okay with either of these options.
     
  4. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer Active Member

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    I'm not convinced by the above posts that stoutland would be broken with sand rush. Stoutland with a choice band hits really hard, but so do a lot of choiced mons and there are a couple of things that can switch into each of its moves; you wouldnt use a team without a solid switch in to normal-type moves. It's a lot like tauros, except faster, a bit stronger, and doesn't miss, but doesn't get to switch moves and doesn't work outside of sand, and so far nothing has been said to convince me that those traits make stoutland banworthy.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 69-82 (19.6 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 58-70 (16.5 - 19.9%) -- possible 6HKO

    So yes stoutland hits harder and is faster in sand but tauros is, I feel, a lot more threatening because it works all the time and can switch up its moves, so in reality normal checks have a lot more to fear from it than from stoutland

    Speaking of working outside of sand I feel that having to run baby hippo sucks quite a bit. Baby hippo can set up sand and maybe sets up SR? but the bottom line is hippo doesn't really do anything outside of that. So by running stoutland you're forced to give up a teamslot for the sole purpose of supporting it and accomplishes little else, so 2 slots for one mon that may not even be that hard to stop. And they are so reliant on each other that if one faints in a match, the other is rendered quite useless especially when you consider the opportunity cost. Its probably more troublesome using hippo + stoutland over using say tauros + another SR Pokemon since they work independently of each other and consistently through the game. Correct me if I'm wrong since I didn't play the tier at the time but hippowdon was probably a different story since it actually survives things and was really useful even if stoutland is out of the equation.
     
  5. E.T.

    E.T. SSSSSSSSSSSSS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 218-258 (62.1 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Yeah, it eats that up just fine. Also:

    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 196-232 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Mega Audino: 154-183 (37.5 - 44.6%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 204 HP / 248+ Def Vaporeon: 241-285 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 226-266 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 142-168 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 224-264 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 141-166 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery This can switch in once at least.

    I mean, sure, Stoutland isn't going to predict correctly 100% of the time, but when it does, there doesn't seem to be much stopping it defensively. Then, once the main things stopping it from spamming Return have been dealt with, it is free to plow holes through or even sweep your team. Also, running baby Hippo is not necessarily required when Golem, Rhydon, Kangaskhan, Omastar, Piloswine, Miltank, Mawile, Claydol, Cradily, Regirock, Registeel, Torterra, Gastrodon, Bronzong, Lickilicky, Probopass, Uxie, Mesprit, Gigalith, Crustle, Carracosta, Stunfisk and more have access to Sandstorm and can either set up and boom or set up multiple times.

    Also keep in mind that if someone is dedicating sand support for Stoutland, they are probably going to have something like Sandslash too, so you'll also need to be able to deal with that at the same time. I don't think Sandslash by itself would be broken, but bringing these kinds of Sand Rush teams back into the tier doesn't seem healthy to me. Yes, it wouldn't be as bad as when Hippowdon was in the tier, but I still think Sand Rush Stoutland would be too much.
     
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  6. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    So this has been going on for a while, and I've played a few Sand Rush teams in the interm. I don't think Sand Rush is broken in this meta. The reliance on baby Hippo (especially without the bulk eviolite provides) means that keeping up Sand is much more difficult than before the ban. CB Stoutland is incredibly reliant on prediction if it wants to break through common cores, since almost every team is going to carry a Normal, Fighting, and Dark resist that can threaten a team. Getting caught in the wrong move can be game ending for a Sand team, since sand turns are limited (and manual sand is garbage), and Hippo is often forced to be sacced. Without Hippowdon, Sand teams are forced to sac a lot more often, and good pivots for sand are hard to find. So against offensive teams, sand often has to deal with CB Stoutland being forced out after a poor prediction (using Superpower on smth like Mesprit or Return on something like Klinklang) or a sac. Defensive teams commonly carry things with Protect (Registeel, Wish Audino, Wish Vaporeon etc), which means that Stoutland is going to struggle to get the hit that it needs to break through a core. Stoutland does shine against balance (unless it's that annoying protect Balance), though not enough that it makes balance anywhere near unviable.

    I don't think Sandslash is anywhere near broken with Rush, since it has both terrible synergy with the sand setter and is going to have major trouble sweeping between mediocre bulk, poor coverage, and the sand timer.
     
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  7. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    After trying out Sand rush throughout the duration of this suspect, I'm finding it hard to call this broken as it was before. Although it has been discussed already above, I'll still go through the two main reasons in short:

    1) Sand Rush Setter: Back when Sand rush was suspected and banned in NU, we had Hippowdon in the tier. Hippopotas is nowhere near as viable or useful as Hippowdon; it has lackluster bulk (mainly SpDef) since it's forced to carry Smooth Rock over Eviolite. Sand teams are extremely reliant on baby hippo for sand turns and it's sub-par bulk makes it difficult to keep it alive during the course of the match, and you will be forced to sack it more often than you think.

    2) Sand Rush Abusers: Stoutland and Sandslash are the only relevant Sand rush abusers in the tier. CB Stoutland is a quite strong, and has near perfect coverage with access to moves like Return/Crunch/Superpower/Wild Charge/Play Rough. CB Return hits like a truck and is very effective as a late-game cleaner because with Sand up Stoutland outspeeds everything in the tier. However strong as it may be, it's still overly reliant on predicting it's switchins; Spiritomb/Bronzong/Registeel/Uxie/Vaporeon with Wish-Tect/Tangrowth: all can tank it's hits and either cripple/kill it or use up Sand turns. Stoutland sometimes has trouble getting past common defensive cores, and when lack of a reliable sand-setter like Hippowdon hurts it's chances of cleaning late-game as without sand it's prone to get revenge killed by the faster fighting types in NU.

    Sandslash isn't as useful as Stoutland as a Sand rush sweeper even though it gets decent coverage with EQ/Stone Edge/Knock Off and also has access to SD. However offensive Sandslash is absolutely dead weight without sand up due to it's sub-par bulk and even at +2 speed it gets outsped by some common scarfers like Scyther/Primeape/Rotom and things like +1 Vivillon/Lilligant.

    tl;dr Sand Rush isn't that big of a deal in the current NU meta, and so it will be unbanned in NU from now on. If Stoutland becomes too much of a problem, we will definitely get to that in the near future.
     
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