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[Other] Middle Cup General Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by Edna, Mar 31, 2016.

  1. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Hi and welcome in the Middle Cup General Thread

    Rules:
    Your 6 Pokémons should be a 2nd stage evolution, which means they should be evolved and have an evolution
    Banned Pokémon:
    Banned Items:
    Banned Abilities
    : Shadow Tag
    Banned Moves: Baton Pass

    In this thread you should talk about potential suspects, they can be items, Pokemon or simply abilities!
    Have fun in this metagame :]

    List of eligible pokemons
    Bayleef, Boldore, Braixen, Cascoon, Chansey, Charmeleon, Clefairy, Combusken, Croconaw, Dewott, Doublade, Dragonair, Duosion, Dusclops, Eelektrik, Electabuzz, Flaafy, Fletchinder, Floette, Fraxure, Gabite, Gloom, Golbat, Gothorita, Graveler, Grotle, Grovyle, Gurdurr, Haunter, Herdier, Ivysaur, Jigglypuff, Kadabra, Kakuna, Kirlia, Klang, Krokorok, Lairon, Lampent, Lombre, Loudred, Luxio, Machoke, Magmar, Magneton, Marill, Marshtomp, Metang, Metapod, Monferno, Nidorina, Nidorino, Nuzleaf, Palpitoad, Pidgeotto, Pignite, Pikachu, Piloswine, Poliwhirl, Porygon2, Prinplup, Pupitar, Quilava, Quilladin, Rhydon, Roselia, Seadra, Sealeo, Servine, Shelgon, Silcoon, Skiploom, Sliggoo, Spewpa, Staravia, Swadloon, Togetic, Tranquill, Vanillish, Vibrava, Vigoroth, Wartortle, Weepinbell, Whirlipede, Zweilous
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2016
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  2. Troller

    Troller Well-Known Member

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    Ban Eviolite or Chansey or both.
     
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  3. Troller

    Troller Well-Known Member

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    Serious post

    - Light Ball
    - Eviolite
    - Speed Boost
    - Protean
    - Rhydon

    - Chansey
    - Shadow Tag
     
  4. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Can we at least get a real post about why all those things should be banned. Half of them are questionable to begin with and you didn't even mention Combusken and/or Baton Pass which is kind of easily the most broken thing to start with
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2016
  5. Troller

    Troller Well-Known Member

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    Bpass is already banned, also i have "banned" Speed Boost as trait
    #FreeCombusken
     
  6. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Arguably, I would start with Chansey before anything, the bulk is already a lot in OU so you'ld need stuff like SD Monferno to get through Chansey, which in my opinion makes the tier unbalanced, at a first glance. Needs some testing but that could be our first suspect ( why am i leading this though :D )
     
  7. Casparov

    Casparov This is supposed to be a Medal!

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    The list that draciel edited is already missing chansey and frogadier. So he probably got it from smogon were those 2 already got banned.

    Chansey with evio in ou is basically almost impossible to kill let alone in middle cup.
    So I think the first thing you need to do is ban eviolite. Then we can see if these mons (pory2,rhydon, chansey) are still too much for the tier.
    About frogadier, I think this Mon has the same impact on middle cup as greninja did on ou. Great speed, movepool and ofcours protean. I'll have to see for myself, but I definitely can see a frogadier suspect in the near future.
     
  8. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    It was fuzzy and me who decided on the list, initially implemented these bans but decided we should do it like every tier, meaning doing suspect tests :)
     
  9. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ya I can agree with a ban of Chansey and Eviolite, these two make the tier stupidly bulky. Then I can probably see Frogadier and Kadabra potentially being broken after this, but only time will tell.
     
  10. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I would like people to hear me out if possible. I think that Eviolite is Middle Cup's only chance to survive and be a decent tier.

    Last gen we banned Eviolite in Middle Cup, as it basically broke every single prominent defensive threat in the tier. But what we got afterwards was an extremely boring hyper offensive tier that everyone stopped playing pretty rapidly and interest died out. As well as this, this gen we got a lot more offensive options in the tier through things like hidden ability releases and other super strong mons, potential ways to break walls, and not least the addition of Knock Off. It is very likely that this gen's Middle Cup without Eviolite will be even more hyper offensive and boring than before.

    I think we should really, systematically look at Eviolite and decide whether it breaks too much stuff before we hastily ban it or we'll just kill off the tier again. If it really does break too much stuff then it should go but we should actually decide that, not just quickban like this.
     
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  11. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    I somehow agree with Aurist, some pokemon only niche exists with Eviolite ( Cleffairy for example ) and it makes the tier very interesting, balanced,not totally HO oriented, as much as LC is for me so I'm not for a Eviolite ban. Maybe a limitation of 2 user per team could be ok ( ? ) but not a full ban imo seems bad.
     
  12. Troller

    Troller Well-Known Member

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    Agree about eviolite; anyways there are 3 problems:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Even if without eviolite this trio have ridiculously high statistics for the tier... Chansey and Porygon2 with recovery, and Rhydon with the perfect coverage Rock-Ground, Rock Polish and Swords Dance, how can a tier with Charmeleon stop this? Can't.

    Minor Problems:
    - Light Ball
    - Speed Boost
    - Protean


    I think that Pikachu with Light Ball (free Work Up) is broken as Soul Dew Latios in OU, that boost is too much high in this tier, have fun with the little Deoxys.
    Speed Boost and Protean maybe are not that big problem but i think they are too "cheap"
     
  13. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Chansey should be quickbanned imo. As for P2 and Rhydon they are better off suspected. P2 is especially problematic as a wall and so is Chansey, a mon that is OU for the very reason that it walls so many special attackers isn't really good especially when you are forced to keep certain fighting mons in your team.
     
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  14. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Last edited: Apr 18, 2016
  15. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Yeah so guys I am kinda bumping this thread up. I was looking up the smogon dex for middle cup and found out a few things. Let's discuss a few upcoming susceptible stuff.
    So apparently Magneton, Kadabra, Chansey and Combusken are banned. Eviolite is banned, so is light ball. I kinda disagree on the evio ban and fully agree on the lightball, it seriously breaks pika. And then there are two ability bans, contrary (read servine) and protean (read frogadier).
    So let's discuss what we are to do with these guys here and what are your opinions on Rhydon and P2 as well. :3 Happy Reviving!
     
  16. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I never understood why they banned abilities in Middle Cup in the first place, as it contradicts with Smogon's tiering philosophy of avoiding to beat around the bush.

    Anyways Combusken and Light Ball are really broken. Busken can just use one turn to gain speed and proceed to sweep thanks to its decent stats, amazing offensive typing and has the ability to setup with Swords Dance. This is extremely important due to the fact that Middle Cup really lacks priority besides Fletchinder. Light Ball in the other hand just turns Pikachu into a pseudo-uber in Middle Cup standards, as its offensives reach to a sky high and the meta really lacks special walls in order to deal with Pika's STABs. It also has good coverage and is pretty fast.

    No opinion on Kadabra, Magneton, and Porygon2 yet.

    P.S Also edit the OP with the Chansey ban :)
     
  17. LittleRoot

    LittleRoot Active Member

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    Middle cup is getting popularity these days, so thought i should share my opinions here.​

    Can we ban Doublade? It's freaking OP for this tier. It gets perfect coverage and good move pool, if you pair it up with eviolite then it becomes more Scarry because tier has only 2 good dark types, Zweilous and Krokorok; however zweilous doesn't get Pursuit and Krokorok doesn't KO Doublade with earthquake while Doublade can KO it with scared sword.

    About P2, I don't think that it's that broken while you have Clefairy, Chansey and Gurdurr in the tier.

    About Fletchinder, I guess it should ban too, it becomes a monster after one SD, beside Magneton I don't see any potential counter for it.

    and ofc Light ball is broken as hell. As troller said it is like soul dew latios in ou.

    OK, so chansey isn't THAT broken for the tier, you have Gurdurr, Lum berry Fraxure, DD rest Dragonair, Subsplit Haunter, CM knock off Clefairy, SD Fletchinder and all SubSeed mons. These mons make it's work hard also it gets fully walled by any ghost type Mon aka doublade, dusknoir etc etc. So, IMO Chansey should stay until doublade gets ban. OU and Middle cup are different metas, so you really can't compare OU things here.

    Kadabra is just bad, completely gets wall by chansey and p2 which are pretty comman, also it dies to doublade(pursuit or sneak) and shadow ball doesn't KO doublade.

    Magneton is pretty good, it gives volt-turn core and has great typing, but same as kadabra, gets wall by comman tanks but unlike kadabra at least it gives you volt switch on fat things.

    Rhydon is a good Mon but it's not ban worthy, where Servine, Wartortle and Gabite are comman in the tier.

    So, @Aurist and @Edna, IMO for now ban doublade from the tier as soon as possible.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
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  18. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    >tags LUTL and retd.TL
    GJ Root! :v
    That said we have 2 mons on the radar. 1)Doublade and 2)Fletchinder. IMO Doublade needs to be banned or at best be suspected cuz nuthin switches into at +2 and lives a sneak afterwards lol. Would talk about burd later.
     
  19. LittleRoot

    LittleRoot Active Member

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    I tagged them cuz tier has no specific TLs and Aurist was active in thread and Carl made this thread. Sorry if I did wrong.

    Also, sharing some calcs

    252 Atk Eviolite Krokorok Earthquake vs. 200 HP/0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 114 - 134 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    -1 252+ Atk Eviolite Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP/0 Def Eviolite Krokorok: 160 - 190 (61.3 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Crunch vs. 200 HP/0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 120 - 144 (75.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    The whole tier has no real switch in for doublade and can tank powerful hits.
     
  20. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    I support these bans/suspects. Sorry that I can no longer start them but you can ask @sulcata to do so. Giving your arguments and the small playerbase Middle Cup has you can potentially ban them without passing by suspects, in my opinion.

    Fletchinder is not a big issue in the sense Rhydon is a dominant force and that it is very frail since no eviolite. You can find a lot of pokemon with Clerics that can heal you and deal with Fletch.

    Doublade is different since Ghost is a so good typing and that it has not to fear many pokemons such as Porygon 2 ( unless Foul play) and because it has the bulk, the atk and access to a good prio to do a clean job. I can potentially see Knock off be a problem since it will lose the stats boost ( krookorok or w/e the spelling is can be a serious issue with intimidate). Deino is also a pokemon that can ohko it so while it's hard to switch on it, it's not invicible. It still is a massive threat and deserve a suspect.

    Sorry that I never replied earlier but some people didn't agree a lot on MC tiering which is on my opinion a fun tier that deserve a tiering like all side metas.
     
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  21. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    The people who thought/think that MC tiering is unnecessary, haven't posted here anw. People hv posted hre even nw showing dat interest still lies in MC. So maybe having a suspect before we mov 2 SuMo sounds cool! Also Carl, i tld u #MCbHype! :P
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  22. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    joyverse home you're go drunk

    Posting calcs is straight up silly. They're a pain in the ass to read and don't form a real argument on their own. Just say that it 2HKOs or 3HKOs, we don't really care about the rest.

    If you guys can agree on a suspect (i.e. Doublade), then I'll open a thread. I'm not doing multiple suspects at the same time as that'd be a clusterfuck.

    edit: also yea im the only SMTL right now
     
  23. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    u w0t m8?

    But yeah, I had made it quite clear that a Doublade suspect is very well needed right now. I hope everyone else agrees with me. I still can't come up to a conclusion on Fletchinder so let's talk about that later.
     
  24. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ya I also wouldn't mind a Doublade suspect. Won't start posting arguments if a suspect thread would go up, but all im gonna say is that it is worthy for one thanks to the limited answers it has.

    Also ban Light Ball please