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Suspect Discussion - Pangoro (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Aurist, Apr 17, 2016.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Tier Leader Server Administrator Tier Leader Server Administrator

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    Discuss the possibility of banning Pangoro from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Pangoro as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.
     
  2. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Pangoro is that one Pokemon that you should think about when you're teambuilding because it has a very good Wallbreaking capabilities, mostly because it learns Gunk Shot to beat its counters such as Aromatisse, Granbull or Togetic. Having access to very useful abilities ( Mold Breaker and Iron Fist, Scrappy is less useful in LU but still good for the likes of Spiritomb) it can sweep unprepared teams.

    However I don't think it's broken at the moment, it has the power to break stall which is good, but it has to run Jolly so it outspeeds Exploud and stuff like that, and also it has to come in a free turn so it can SD, which is not very easy depending the opponent team. I've been running a Brave Bird Mandibuzz so I can deal with it easier, but Brave bird also allows Mandibuzz to hit Chesnaught sub, so it's not 'centralizing' in the sense you have to prepare specifically for it. You can run sets like Scarf/Band but they're generally outclassed by the SD set which is very predictable and fairly manageable. Not to mention the rise of Ghost pokemons with Colbur berry and Wisp/Dazzling gleam, so I do believe people have adapted quite fairly to it.

    It's still an amazing mon with amazing capabilities, but I don't see it being toxic to LU atm
     
  3. Joyverse

    Joyverse Buon Giorno! Forum Moderator Articles Leader Forum Moderator Articles Leader

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    Pangoro has a solid attack stat at 124 but it is definitely not a very fast mon. But as Carl mentioned, it is a mon that should be thought of while building, AV Panda beats Aroma and Togetic by being able to tank a 4x hit and retaliating with Gunk plus it is a fairly dangerous presence against slower teams. But thing is Pangoro isn't an extremely versatile mon and it shouldn't be banned.

    I usually run HO teams in LU which contains Brav in a lot of them and has a fair share of fighting types like Emboar,Virizion and Hitmonlee all of which pose a significant threat to Panda and block a potential panda sweep. I also noticed at times thar Wisp Fletch doesn't care about Panda unless it runs Lum berry. Also Mons like Delphox can run Colbur berries to mitigate that knock off and end Panda rt there.

    All in all, Panda is a quite strong presence in LU but it not strong enough to be threatening to the entire LU metagame where the above mentioned mons are used significantly so I wouldn't ask for a ban.

    Edit: Removed Hoopa off the list, even though can kill Panda, it cannot tank a knock off from Panda even with a Colbur.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2016
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  4. lighthouses

    lighthouses Member

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    Hello, i'm a bit of an outsider here but i definitely think that pangoro should be banned(or suspected if anything)
    There are as many(deffensive) answers to it here as there were in ru when it was suspected(golbat, and thats it), although you guys do have mandibuzz i find myself using it spdef most of the time in order to keep stuff like melo and sigilyph honest, as well as kind of dealing with nidoqueen, a mon that pressures stall that much w/o the need to have specialized movesets or to run suboptimal moves to hit certain targets(it can just run stabs + gunk shot and everything dies) sounds like a little but too much;not to mention there's also the banded set which is another threat all on it's on, with again, no deffensive answers and the ability to use a pivoting move. Pangoro is pretty fat as well meaning that it would be far from dead weight against more offensive teams(it even lives a flare blitz from scarf emboar with no invest if i'm not mistaken)
    Although having pangoro is nice for keeping aggron somewhat in check, so i'm not sure if a ban would be as positive as it may look to me atm
     
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  5. Joyverse

    Joyverse Buon Giorno! Forum Moderator Articles Leader Forum Moderator Articles Leader

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    it is being suspected rn, dw :3
     
  6. lighthouses

    lighthouses Member

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    Oh, i thought it wasn't because it says "suspect discussion" on the thing D:
     
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  7. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Here when it says suspect discussions, it means it's a suspect, and this is the thread you use to discuss your views openly and fully on the Pokemon in question providing experience with and against the Pokemon in question in the tier, as well as providing checks, counters, and useful damage calculations to argue for or against either side. I guess it can be kind of confusing, but our other thread for that lists the tier changes is a forum basically to discuss potential suspects happening.


    Anyway Pangoro. Panda is one beast of a Pokemon in the tier, and a highly effective wallbreaker much like other heavy hitters like Emboar or Exploud. It has a fairly decent list of pros and cons to it, as well as dependents on certain sets and their functions.

    Pros:
    - 124 base attack is seriously high, pretty sure it's the second or third highest physical attack stat in our tier regularly behind Rhyperior and Escavalier. Others that come close to give you an idea of hitting this hard are Braviary, Tyrantrum, Emboar, Druddigon, etc. It's already one of many in a group of physically hard hitters.

    - Fighting typing is never bad, especially with Dark typing and having access to Knock Off as a STAB. In this current gen, it's practically utter cancer depending how hard you can get it to hit.

    - Access to Swords Dance makes it a sweep against extremely slow teams. Access to Gunk Shot means that it actually has a way to kill the fairy types that wall it like the Great Wall of China walled the Mongolians back in the day, even if the accuracy is basically do or die for it.

    Cons:
    - It lacks versatility, even though it has all the tools that are needed that it doesn't actually have to reach out for more moves. However, it is a pretty big drawback in itself based on the item you have to choose will also determine how you play it from the get go.

    - It is slow. 215 max when invested, 236 with a Jolly nature, you can run less speed to play around with slower teams, but you will always be a victim towards faster threats that the tier has, so there's a question of where and how much you SHOULD invest into speed vs health.

    - It is not particularly fat. 95 HP/78 Def/71 SpDef isn't bad, but it's not exactly fat for a bulkier tank if you were thinking it that way. Let's take Lighthouses example, lives Scarf Boar.

    252 Atk Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pangoro: 277-327 (83.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Yes it lives scarf Boar just barely, any hazards are up, Panda pretty much dies, also Panda doesn't get out of battles relatively unscathed as it'll be taking hits from many things, so it's almost never gonna be full HP or around this level unless your opponent is dumb and lets you mess around with them with a Swords Dance Drain Punch Panda. It isn't exactly fat, it's just enough that it could play let me live a bit longer against things with some mediocre attack and special attack stat, though it might risk status.

    That's pretty much the basic outline I would like people to realize before moving onto its sets, and where your pros and cons for those run in. Gonna throw in that for almost all purposes as pointed out by Carl, that Iron Fist is best ability, where in you use Scrappy for Spiritomb b/c Knock Off isn't a one shot or if you feel you want to just try to bypass the ghosts (not really most optimized option), and Mold Breaker doesn't have so much bearing except vs Sturdy users so its probably the weakest ability to use.

    Anyway let's start with Choice Band Panda. CB hits hard as hell, and like all others Emboar, Braviary, Escavalier, Tyrantrum, Rhyperior, everything is going to take a high fucking level of damage. Hammer Arm + Knock Off + Gunk Shot cover what you need, you can use Parting Shot as a 4th move if you aren't comfortable locking yourself in. It's pure wallbreaker standard here, and the only difference between Panda vs the rest of the Pokemon I listed is the others actually an extent of "checks" where as Panda hits for pretty neutral on everything with Knock Off and Hammer Arm is just a nice back up.

    Choice Scarf, Panda's slow, but with Scarf and Jolly it hits pretty high level of speed, outspeeding nearly all your standard offensive options. Literally runs the same as the previous set, except your giving up Power for Speed to revenge kill against the offensive teams. 354 speed is the max it hits, and the only things it doesn't outspeed are obviously other +1s above its speed tier, as well as Jolteon, Swellow, and Accelgor, those types of Pokemon. Outside bulkier teams, its pretty standard to have something that would outspeed and run scarf anyway.

    Here is where we get a bit more clouded is the Swords Dance set. Swords Dance, Drain Punch, Knock Off, and Gunk Shot/Different filler. Swords Dance makes it into a monster, and pretty much any Pokemon slower than it will die. There's a lot of Pokemon slower than it naturally, just like there's a lot of Pokemon equally ahead of it in speed, it's more in the middle than slow, but 58 base is considered a slow speed tier because it has to choose who and what it wants to try and outdo. None of the other Pokemon that reach a similar base stat of Pangoro generally has the effectiveness to pull it off, nor has a boosting move like Swords Dance (note Rhyperior and Escavalier would fall under the previous, while things like Braviary, Emboar, Druddigon fall under the latter).

    Pretty much with this type of set, and what basically lead to its ban from the RU tier over on Smogon, it's falls under a general line of the slower it goes, the more you can invest into that usable HP stat of it to keep it alive longer versus, the faster you go, the more middling speed types you can win out against, but you are more susceptible to taking bigger chunks of damage that can result in your death. Add in that you kind of have to play which item in that Life Orb makes it an absolute monster against do you run Lum Berry to prevent Burns from screwing your entire deal over. That's the kind of choice that has to be made, because burns are this things bane.

    As far as other sets go as Joyverse has pointed out an Assault Vest set is a cool choice, though it doesn't get the ability to use Parting Shot nor Swords Dance thus, and because it's not Band or Scarf it falls into a middling good attacking type that doesn't overextend its reach into any one area of well brokenness.

    It has other options in moves such as Poison Jab or Iron Head for fairy types, but lack the power of Gunk Shot nor do they OHKO like Gunk Shot. Its an underlying trait of Pangoro and makes it one of those if or or types that the trade off results in your death most of the time if you have to run the inferior base power move. Ice Punch can find some uses still, but the fact that Gligar isn't around anymore throws it to the bottom of the pile in terms of usefulness against relatively anything, but it can take down Nidoqueen for you, which is kind of big.

    It has Taunt and Hone Claws so if you want your Gunk Shots to not miss, you can roll with that, but not having the +2 throws it somewhat into a middling area against pretty much everything else relative to Knock Off or Drain Punch/Hammer Arm use. Taunts yet another one of those very effective against slower teams that rely on status builds, but it takes up a move slot and that won't stop Aromatisse nor Alomomola's Scald from possibly burning you, so it's relative to use on what you want to not use status, would be boss vs Spiritomb though.

    All in all Pangoro is yet another big offensive attacker we have in the tier, that no matter what you do will put a big dent in you. However, it's still hell a slow, so any good faster Pokemon is going to put huge damage in the thing, because once again its not exactly fat. Weakness to the 3 F's (Flying, Fairy, and Fighting) which are common and good typings on any team in LU, maybe fairy a bit less because of our limited options, means there's usually some way to combat against it. While it has Psychic immunity, and Dark resistance, Darks aren't all that omnipresent in the tier, only just Knock Off really, and the Psychic types have great auxiliary moves that can and will heavily damage it. Rock and Ghost resistance would be a lot better if the fact weren't those regular types were also common dual types with great auxiliary moves as well to compliment them.

    The only reason I can see to consider banning Pangoro is because effectively there's actually a lack of Defensive checks to switch into it because it's basic 3 move coverage hits pretty much every singular type it needs. However it does need a Swords Dance boost in general or be locked into Band to actually achieve the level of damage. When you consider Mons like Escavalier, Braviary, Rhyperior there are complete switch ins you can make to negate their potential damages because there are certain things they just can't hit right off or without a little thinking. Though we can take into consideration something like Gallade who has a 1 point higher Attack, access to the similar moves except Gunk Shot and Parting Shot, and the same levels difficulty that Panda has, while being way faster, it is considered more or less perfectly fine for the tier. Where does Panda's exceptions come in? The ability of Iron Fist boosting power? Knock Off STAB? The two moves that Gallade doesn't have?

    There's not to mention the amount of damage Pangoro takes from Pokemon that are faster than it in general. Basically if a move hits it for Super Effective it will more than likely die because of its poor defenses. There are tons of non Super Effective moves from other wall breaker and heavy hitters that kill it very effortlessly or with some prior damage (Life Orbs, hazards do take their toll, as well as previous Pokemon hitting). Maybe if you are going for high specific counters on everything with a slow team, Pangoro might be a fair challenge, but overall with many of the Pokemon in LU, Pangoro doesn't require any special combos to actually beat considering it is susceptible to every type and can die to highly powerful Pokemon. Pangoro basically requires being paired with a full set of Pokemon that can take lessen type advantages i.e. Grass Partners/Water Partners to lessen the damage water types do, stuff like that. It's pretty much a really good Pokemon that bends and raises to the level of the team that it's made on.
     
  8. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this victini into gengar Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    i believe that Pangoro's selling point over gallade is definitely knock off which is one of the best moves in the game.
    That access to stab makes all the different when trying to hit fat psychic types like slowking. And the fact that pangoro can have 2 really really powerful sets makes it that much harder to switch into. every single fat LU pokemon loses if it switches in an SD and with lum it can switch in a big majority of them.
    On another hand, its access to parting shot can be an amazing support move on different levels, from a voltturn core that can help it eliminate some of its counters by going to the appropriate mons, to a way to help other pokemon set up while still gaining momentum by this free momentum giving semi-memento that has no drawbacks except for like malamar and braviary which dont switch in.
    Iron fist also gives it an edge over gallade, since hammer arm is stronger than gallade's CC, and iron fist also boosts drain punch which then becomes stronger than gallade's drain punch. Then u have this key move that allows it to eliminate fairy types which makes its moveset have perfect coverage, and u honestly dont need any other move other than Fighting/dark/poison with parting shot if band, and sd if lum. it doesn't have any 4MSS which is a nice thing going for it.
    Having perfect coverage with an ability that works well with its moveset coupled with great attack and semi-decent bulk makes me want to push for a ban on pangoro because honestly it really makes teambuilding that much harder and non locked panda isnt scared of switching in fat mons which are rather prevalent in the tier, while banded (or even scarf but i never tried it) can work extremely well in a voltturn team because the fact that u gain momentum for free AND u just easily give the opponent -1 -1 just pushes it over the edge in my opinion.

    Even though it has lackluster speed problem just like exploud (which jolly outspeeds) the fact that it can parting shot + knock off gives it more qualities than the one-dimensional exploud which definitely is good, but pangoro is on another level.

    That's why i believe that it's about time that pangoro is banned
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2016
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  9. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Alright this, probably should have been announced earlier this week, but no one got to it!

    Anyway, after debating on it with Aurist and Gengar17, we have decided that it would be best for Pangoro to be banned from the ORAS LU tier. Pangoro is like many of the amazing wallbreakers in the tier, boasting an extremely high attack stat, which is actually common ground, passable defenses, albeit it's fairly a bit slow, and a moveset that hits almost every single type for some kind of neutrality. However, what pushes it over the edge compared to the other Fighting types and other wallbreakers in the tier is several extra moves that can give teams what could be considered an easy to abuse advantage. These moves are its access to Gunk Shot (where as almost every other fighting type that's of a usable level has to settle for Poison Jab) that beats anything with Fairy typing relatively easily, and the bigger of the two Parting Shot. With Parting Shot, you can basically play as safely as you want, while getting a free switch that reduces your both your opponents attacking stats by one level, which gives perfect set up to any other sweeper in the tier to more or less have one really safe turn to set up and commence a sweep. Just by being on an opposing team does Pangoro add a lot of pressure to a match just because of the lack of true answers that could be found to it, especially considering most of the match ups that beat Pangoro require going one on one on a neutral level meaning they would have to be out before hand or pull a double switch since none of the answers that beat it straight up one on one can switch into it, and it can just switch out most of the time to repeat the process.

    The process should happen soon on the server, so just a heads up that it will be banned in due time.
     
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