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Drifloon Suspect Thread [Not Banned]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LC' started by fitzy, May 23, 2016.

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  1. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Drifloon being banned from the ORAS LC tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Drifloon's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets they can use, possible partners & team support, and potential checks & counters. State your opinion on whether you think they should be banned or if it should stay in the Little Cup meta.

    All opinions are valid and discussion amongst players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your judgment is backed with sound reasoning and validation coming from experience having played with / against Drifloon in the tier. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken."

    Theorymon is not valid and may result in an infraction. Please read the guidelines before posting. Happy posting!

    You have two weeks from posting to discuss this. At the end of that two week period if discussion isn't unanimous (or close to it) then those who have posted coherent arguments in this thread will be invited to PM me votes. If you missed out on the discussion then you will still be able to vote if you provide proof of playing LC on either PS or PO (we have the exact same tier so I'll accept this) and a small paragraph explaining your vote.
     
  2. Samphire

    Samphire Too much hard work!

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    Although Berry Juice itself is still rather controversial, Drifloon emerges as one of the more centralising mons in the tier able to use it, and one which I believe is pretty much broken.

    It has access to Recycle, allowing it to reuse its Berry Juice. It's usual running of 17 speed means although it is not the fastest thing in the tier, it can still outspeed quite a lot of mons as it is. Then you add Unburden. This makes Drifloon into an almost unstoppable force, with its access to Acrobatics, meaning it can deal hefty damage to most mons in the tier. Add in the fact it benefits from being able to run Knock Off too, and it becomes dangerous as it removes any kind of defensive bulk Eviolite offers. Drifloon also has access to Defog and access to Will o Wisp to support itself, but with its 17 speed also provides itself with a good chance to be able to use Substiute to minimise potential damage and use its Berry Juice in order to start its offensive.

    That being said, there are some counters or Pokemon that can defeat it, although even they in certain conditions do not stand a chance.
    1. Pawniard can use Sucker Punch to OHKO Drifloon and benefits from +2 Attack if it comes in on Defog (if that Drifloon carries it), however it faces the problem that Substitute can easily be used to counteract, and the use of Will o Wisp can cripple its Attack.
    2. Magnemite benefits from being able to also abuse Berry Juice, Recycle and its type resistance, and is probably one of the more solid counters to Drifloon.
    3. A more 'out-there' mon that can tackle Drifloon is Snubbull through the use of Intimidate to lower its Attack stat and then the use of Thunder Wave and Crunch to deal damage and cripple its speed. However it mainly suffers from the same problems that Pawniard has (W o W and Sub), and does not have the resistance from its typing.
    4. Mienfoo can OHKO with Knock Off, however if it is not running a Scarf, Drifloon can use the Substitute tactic, and can OHKO with Acrobatics and if its Berry Juice is intact it can 2HKO (with the small chance to OHKO if SR is up -- 196 Atk Drifloon Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienfoo: 14-20 (66.6 - 95.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). Mienfoo again is susceptible to a burn if the Drifloon carries WoW.
    5. Ponyta has a 68.8% chance to OHKO with Flare Blitz, and is 2HKOed by no item Acrobatics with SR up, making it one of the more promising options out there.
    6. Chinchou also OHKOs with Volt Switch and is 3HKOed by Acrobatics, so again a solid option.

    Let's look now at the most commonly used mons in LC (aside from those already covered) and how Drifloon fares:
    • Snivy, Surskit, Foongus - don't stand a chance. Surskit has an outside chance of a speed tie if unburden is not activated to get off an Ice Beam, but other than that....
    • Larvesta again does not have much of a chance. It might have access to recovery, but the one thing it has going for it is a potential burn with Flame Body.
    • Gastly can outspeed if Unburden is not active, and if it is using a Sash may stand a chance. However if it isn't, bye bye Gastly. Abra is in the same ballpark in terms of speed and Sash usage, however it is much worse due to its typing at combating Drifloon.
    • Fletchling at +2 can OKHO Drifloon, and Drifloon can 2HKO with a 6.3% chance to OHKO with SR up.
    • If Drifloon can Knock Off its Eviolite it gets a clean 2HKO on Spritzee with Acrobatics sans item, leaving Spritzee only able to stall out with Wish + Protect. If not Drifloon gets a 3HKO after SR, and Spritzee is able to 2HKO with an unboosted Moonblast.
    • Archen cannot outspeed Unburden Drifloon even with a scarf, and an Acrobatics will put it into Defeatist range.
    • Shellder is 3HKOed by Drifloon, and can OHKO with Rock Blast or Icicle Spear unboosted.
    • Drilbur gets 50% chance to OHKO with Rock Slide, however Berry Juice will be a problem. Drifloon with no item can 2HKO it.
    • Tirtouga is a solid counter being able to OHKO, abuse Berry Juice and Sturdy, while Drifloon can only 4HKO. A burn can give Tirtouga only a 6.3% chance to OHKO though, meaning Drifloon has a chance to play around with Berry Juice, Recycle and Sub if the Tirtouga is not a Shell Smash variant.
    • Defensive Porygon has a 50% chance to OHKO, while Drifloon without its item can only 3HKO.
    • Diglett can abuse Sucker Punch, although is not fast enough to hit first with Rock Slide. It also is not able to abuse Arena Trap to keep Drifloon in. It can OHKO with Rock Slide, but its best option to do this is to use a Sash and to hope there are no hazards on the field for it to come into and lose it, as Drifloon will OHKO otherwise.
    • Timburr benefits from not being able to get a burn drop with Guts. Even then, Knock Off can only 2HKO without status or stat boosts, while Drifloon has a much more solid 2HKO on it in return.
    • Munchlax if it does not use Rest suffers from a burn if the Drifloon has WoW. It also cannot hit with its STAB and has to rely on other coverage attacks to do damage. Both Drifloon and Munchlax can abuse Recycle and Berry Juice, meaning the match up can turn into a stalemate unless the Munchlax is trying to boost through Curse.
    • Bunnelby can OHKO with Stone Edge, while Drifloon 2HKOs with non-item Acrobatics. However it cannot risk a switch-in even when scarfed.
    • Bulky Staryu can just about stave off Drifloon's damage, but may struggle to take it down. LO Staryu can OHKO with Ice Beam though it can be 2HKOed by Drifloon.
    • Nasty Plot Vullaby is 3HKOed, meaning it can benefit from the speed boosts if it uses Weak Armor and even then unboosted a Dark Pulse will kill. Its physically offensive variants both have a small chance to OHKO while being 3HKOed in return.
    • Honedge can use Shadow Sneak to its advantage to 2HKO, but can be 2HKOed by Shadow Ball. However, if it suffers a burn its chances are limited.
    However there is one factor I have not counted into the matchups. Drifloon also has access to Destiny Bond, meaning given its advantage in speed it can take down most mons in this way, especially if it is weakened or at the risk of a 2HKO from the opposing Pokémon and it cannot take it down through its other attacks. This again makes Drifloon especially damaging, especially in being able to take out fresh mons ready to switch in and finish it.

    If Berry Juice does not warrant a re-suspect, we need to look at the primary abusers of it and their place in the tier. Drifloon is one of these mons which has such a damaging influence.

    I vote to ban Drifloon.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
  3. Jethalal

    Jethalal (~o.o)~ So Spooky ~(o.o~)

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    Drifloon is really a great threat in the meta. With combination of recycle + unburden it outspeeds the whole meta. Its sure weak to the priorty like sucker punch which is very viable but with access to sub will-o-wisp it can cripple those and also the switchins very easily. The most common set being

    Drifloon @ Berry Juice
    Ability: Unburden
    EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 84 Def / 84 SpD / 196 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Recycle
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Acrobatics
    - Substitute

    is quite popular. berry juice+unburden which will also boost STAB acrobatices power comes very handy as it can sub till it gets KO range thanks to unburden boost. It can also act as spin blocker effectively. It also got defog, destiny bons and good special movepool with CM which can easily work with a bit support.
    So the recycle+berry juice+unburden combo is very threatning and it can easily thrash unprepared teams so i say BAN.
     
  4. Quote.

    Quote. New Member

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    I'll admit that Drifloon is pretty damn nasty right now. Its ability to whittle down most physical threats is disgusting. In all honesty we haven't had a defensive threat like this in the metagame since Swirlix (The CGCM set), and even then Swirlix didn't burn you to make things worse. I think the biggest problem with Drifloon is that nearly all of its capable checks lose to Diglett. Chinchou, Mag, assorted fire-types, they're all unfortunate victims. That's not to say the core is completely broken, because there are ways around it. Some scarfed mons can deal with it, and Taillow is fine, too. The key to beating Drifloon on its own though is just getting the jump on it. Pressure early with fast/scarf mons, and if you have rocks set up, don't let floon switch in too times unless you're well-prepared to handle the 34 speed titan. Hell, if you really want to you can just set-up in its face with a shell smasher because if it doesn't carry Knock Off it can't deal with them very well. Personally, I'm leaning towards no ban but I'm not 100% confident in that.
     
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  5. E.T.

    E.T. SSSSSSSSSSSSS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I’ll discuss the stall set first since that’s the one people seem to be against the most. There are multiple issues I’ve seen with the Drifloon stall set. First is setting up. In order to activate Unburden, you have to use Substitute multiple times or take a hit. Switching into attacks you can survive can work, but you can’t afford to take a hit from anything that runs Knock Off before you've activated Unburden (which is a pretty big negative considering how common it is) because you’ll either flat out get KO’d or lose the ability to use Recycle. Next, with using Recycle, you can usually only use it when your health is low because if Berry Juice doesn’t activate when you recycle it, it nullifies Unburden, so this can make the Recycle turn pretty predictable. You also need to invest in defenses for this set, so your Acrobatics is only coming off of an Attack stat of 12 which is hardly unstoppable. Pokemon such as Magnemite, Ponyta, Chinchou, Spritzee, Porygon, Munchlax, and Staryu can pretty comfortably deal with it. Amaura deserves a special mention because it gets a free switch in and can KO it through the Substitute with Refrigerate Hyper Voice. The Knock Off set is worse because you become more vulnerable to status and have less control over activating Unburden without Substitute.

    Drifloon @ Berry Juice
    Level: 5
    Ability: Unburden
    EVs: 196 Atk / 116 SpA / 196 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Acrobatics
    - Shadow Ball
    - Substitute
    - Destiny Bond
    I think the offensive attacking set is a bit more threatening as it hits a lot harder and has Destiny Bond to threaten the things that Drifloon can't beat. However, from playing around with this, I think that it is good but not broken. Due to the lack of Recycle, this set really only has one chance to setup. This set could also run Knock Off, Will-O-Wisp, HP Fighting, or even Sucker Punch by replacing Shadow Ball and/or Destiny Bond, but I think the set that I listed is the best in general. The same Pokemon listed previously can also deal with this set except that Amaura has to be careful not to switch into HP Fighting.

    Drifloon @ Berry Juice
    Level: 5
    Ability: Unburden
    EVs: 116 HP / 164 Def / 36 SpA / 84 SpD / 36 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Hex/Shadow Ball
    - Recycle
    - Will-O-Wisp/Thunderbolt
    Where it gets tricky is the Calm Mind set. Pokemon that can answer the other sets such as Spritzee and Staryu become setup bait, and Chinchou and Magnemite become much less reliable answers. However, this set still struggles against bulky Normal types. It also has problems with Dark types like Pawniard and Stunky or Sturdy Juicers like Onix or Dwebble if it lacks Will-O-Wisp. If it lacks Thunderbolt, Nasty Plot Vullaby, Houndour, Fletchling with Swords Dance, and Omanyte pose more of a threat. Calm Mind Drifloon is also is more vulnerable before Berry Juice activates because the EV spread only allows it to reach 14 Speed. Knock Off is a bigger concern as well because it is harder to control when Berry Juice activates without Substitute. The lack of Substitute also makes it vulnerable to status like Thunder Wave.

    It’s also worth noting that priority can create problems for Drifloon since the Recycle sets typically require the use of Recycle while at low health to maintain the Unburden boost although priority is not a reliable primary way of dealing with Drifloon. Sucker Punch is common with users such as Pawniard, Diglett, Houndour, and Stunky although admittedly Drifloon has ways to play around this through Substitute, Recycle, Will-O-Wisp, and Destiny Bond. Fletchling can OHKO the offensive set after Stealth Rock with Acrobatics, and it 2HKOs the other sets. Shadow Sneak, Ice Shard, and Aqua Jet also fall into this category, but they are pretty uncommon.

    Ultimately, I think Drifloon is good, but I don’t think it is quite broken. While it is true that Drifloon can be difficult to deal with once Unburden activates, it is relatively vulnerable before it activates, and it has to run Substitute, switch into Stealth Rocks strategically, and/or take hits it can survive in order to activate it. I think each set has enough common answers to keep it in check if it does get a chance to setup, and other Pokemon can threaten it before Unburden activates.
     
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  6. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Well it looks fairly broken at first as it can stall out teams with will o wisp sub and recycle(not going to others sets because they aren't as dangerous) making it hard to hit at all, however, a good portion of that comes from diglett's ability to trap it's counters, lowering their viability on paper and, in practical battles, eventually leave drifloon with no checks after trapping a few of them, however, as a pokemon individually, there are far more ways around drifloon, for instence, bulky teams can use restalk pokemon such as munchlax as well as chinchou and defensive ponyta with flame body to name a few, among others, against offensive team it will have very few realistic window to set a sub up, and of course it can't have too much starting speed if it invests in bulk either, so overall, it's good, but has many drawbacks and isn't anywhere as dangerous without diglett support so no ban
     
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  7. beforedawn

    beforedawn Active Member

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    On the other hand, however, Diglett itself is inherently powerful. Diglett strongly enhances any team it is on, ESPECIALLY in conjunction with Flying-Pokemon (that synergy tho). Diglett is being suspected at the same time (but that's another thread, of course).

    My point is, without the right support (especially considering how much Diglett can boost up a Flying mon), pretty much any Pokemon "isn't anywhere as dangerous," so that's an inherently flawed argument. And if a Pokemon can be overcentralising with the right backup, that can be grounds for brokenness.

    So the question is if Drifloon commands the metagame like that (either with or without the Diglett). I think that a large part of Drifloon's capability is that it is difficult to counter. Some people have suggested that the best way to combat Drifloon is preventing it from eating its God Juice and get the double speed boost, by applying pressure. But all what Drifloon REALLY needs is one free turn to wreck havoc -- switch in on something you counter and Sub up.

    What DOES Drifloon counter right off the bat? Less than I expected, actually. Mostly walls, like Ferroseed and Foongus. Drifloon is also a difficult match-up for any physical attacker that does not carry Knock Off or can instantly OHKO Drifloon; otherwise, Drifloon usually gets the burn on them, which can permanently destroy such a Pokemon. (And from then on, Drifloon can build unbreakable Subs backed by its healing move.) Even if you CAN manage to Knock it Off, it is difficult to do so without needing a Burn Heal. Drifloon's ability to make speedy subs and its recovery tool AND its 110 STAB attack makes it more resilient to Pursuit, Knock Off, and Sucker Punch than others Ghosts. Ironically, most Knock Offers are Fighting Pokemon, putting them at an inherent disadvantage versus Ghost/Flying.

    I think that a team, if aggressive enough, can pressure Drifloon enough so that it doesn't become a juggernaut. As aforementioned, this makes it quite dangerous if you can't get that initial OHKO (as it will start causing havoc), and other than that, it is dangerous all-around. Plus (although I think this is universal with any general good mon), it can cause trouble with any of its status moves or STABs, and if anything remotely threatening comes along, Drifloon can just skedaddle to any appropriate teammate.

    1. Drifloon's recovery in the form of Recycle Juice with its status platforming means it can easily sabotage foes with little risk to itself.
    2. Its status platforming and speed (esp. with Unburden) in that Recycle Juice Sub combo means it is pretty difficult to counter as well.
    3. It can usually switch in and out of battle with minimal risks to itself and to its team.

    There are definitely ways to combat Drifloon, as described in aforementinoed posts, but IDK if I'm knowledgeable enough to say it's banworthy or not. I would say ban, but I also could be biased.
     
  8. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    That's somewhat the point though, without the broken diglett to help it by getting rid of all its many counters after(assuming) it gets banned it will be nowhere as dangerous, so yes, drifloon is very good in the current metagame(s rank worthy I might say) but afterwards, if diglett is banned, I don't think drifloon will be anywhere near as troublesome as preparing for it becomes very easy, easier than some other pokemon even, the list of pokemons that can deal with it is pretty decent when you consider that they can't quite be trapped and picked off anymore.
     
  9. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ya I have concluded the same notion that Diglett us what really pushes Drifloon off as potentially broken as well. If you think about it, a whole new slew of checks/counters become available such as Chinchou, Magnemite, Pawniard, WoW Ponyta, Omanyte, etc to combat Drifloon as most of these mons do not get stalled out quite easily due to the resistance from Acrobatics. I don't want to start bringing up Diglett arguments in this thread, but I feel that the trapping (whatever it is) should have been suspected first to see whether or not Floon is as menacing without the amazing offensive support Diglett brings.
     
  10. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    The discussion in this thread has lead to no conclusive opinion that Drifloon is broken or not.

    This means we will be hosting a suspect vote. Over 50% is needed to ban.

    @Samphire
    @Funbot28
    @MUMU
    @beforedawn
    @E.T.
    @Quote.
    @Jethalal

    Are all invited to PM me a yes or not vote by 14th June 10pm GMT +1. Anyone else who wishes to vote can do so by providing proof of playing LC on either PS or PO and a small paragraph explaining the vote.
     
  11. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Yes votes:
    Jethalal


    No votes:

    beforedawn
    Quote.
    MUMU
    Funbot28
    Casparov
    E.T.

    With a no vote majority Drifloon has been deemed not broken by the community and so will stay.
     
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