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June & July Potential Suspect Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Celestial Phantom, Jun 4, 2016.

  1. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    It's that time once again, we finally have our stats page back up and running after finding out what the problem was for it being down, which means that it's time for a tier shift. This thread is for the knowledge of what is dropping to the tier, rising from the tier below, and leaving the tier to higher tiers based on the 4% usage statistic that Pokmeon receive in a tier they are used in.

    Rising to OU from LU:
    Medicham

    Rising to UU from LU:
    Abomasnow
    Aggron
    Slowking

    Dropping from UU to LU:
    Absol
    Ampharos
    Donphan
    Heliolisk
    Hitmontop
    Quagsire
    Roserade
    Rotom-C
    Sharpedo
    Toxicroak

    Rising to LU from NU:
    Clawitzer
    Bronzong
    Eelektross
    Gurdurr
    Sawk
    Xatu

    Dropping from LU to NU:
    Archeops
    Dragalge
    Electivire
    Fletchinder
    Glalie
    Golbat
    Hoopa
    Jolteon
    Magneton
    Mandibuzz
    Rhyperior
    Samurott

    Rising to UU from NU (because it has an effect on our tier as well):
    Tangrowth
    Houndoom

    So as you all can see, we lose Aggron which includes Aggronite meaning we don't have another ridiculously fat physical wall to worry about, as well as losing one of our key pivots in Slowking whose splashability on any team is a loss to many for an offensive tank of a water Pokemon. Should mean that Milotic or Vaporeon can get more use in it's stead even if they don't have the move coverage that Slowking offered. We also lost a big hitter in the form of Abomasnow which includes its Mega meaning no superpowered Blizzards will be fired off that easily anymore. As well Medicham makes the huge leap back to OU again, likely due to it's Mega finding a lot of use there, and as such we are down one very great Fighting type, but we have so many that can fill in the role of pure and powerful that Medicham is one less threat that we have to worry about.

    Seeing as Tangrowth and Houndoom make the jump up to UU, NU and LU loses two very useful Pokemon in the metagames, that served specialized Offensive roles, and as such we take a hit without them being around, so it's a detriment to our meta.

    As far as drops go, we gain a whole lot. Donphan is a pretty cool spinner, Hitmontop is returning is nice and adds a useful offensive or defensive piece for a spinner. Quagsire was something that was long overdue to drop, but it'll be something useful as an aswer to certain set up users. Roserade is something we've been needing for a long time in a good offensive Grass/Poison since obviously Venusaur can't drop, and Vileplume isn't that good in regards to our Metagame, however Roserade is a nice and powerful addition to the tier. A speedy and powerful Pokemon that can spike, induce sleep, use a great ability in Natural Cure, and play anti-meta to many threats. It might be super powerful, but it'll likely be a welcome addition for the time being. Rotom-Mow makes it's return to the tier, though we still have Rotom-H around, making the fight for use of the formes pretty unique since they can hit different threats, though Rotom-H is the go to Rotom form around here, so I can see Mow falling to the wayside. Finally, we have Toxicroak and Ampharos dropping, which includes the Mega form, so Mega Ampharos will be usable for the time being. We're gonna let these two into the tier to see how much of an impact they'll make before deciding if they'll be more detrimental to the meta instead of being a more positive and balanced force, as it has been a very long time since either one fell this far down, we need more of a look at them instead of just outright banning them from the tier because of being on paper strong.

    However, we have made an executive decision to quickban Absolite from the LU tier on several basis from previous experience. Mega Absol was previously LU in one tier shift that many other powerful Pokemon dropped and were around in the tier, as such it wasn't exactly hard to combine offensive pressure or match it for speed to make it difficult to use, but it was an excessive force during it's previous time in the tier, and most of the highly offensive threats to it are no longer in the tier, and as such there would be more forced competition to have something like a Mach Punch user (Hitmontop, Lee, and Gurdurr) or playing very reserved with many Pokemon, as it is not a Pokemon you can actually deal with passively without some luck (from Scald burns). It has a way to beat out pretty much all its checks with access to strong special moves if they are Physically Defensive answers such as Steelix, Chesnaught, or Donphan. Also, it hits pretty much most Pokemon for neutral and massive damage.

    I do believe we opted to make the choice to quickban Sharpedo as well, though I can't exactly remember our discussion on it the other day, so I'll wait til I can talk to Aurist and Gengar again before I make a confirmation on it, or if one of them wants to confirm for me after I post this that our decision was to do that. Once it's confirmed we'll post on the obvious "why" reasoning with the confirmation, but it shouldn't be too much of a surprise to players to do so out of the gate.

    I added the drops to NU to make people remember, hello all those things are usable in LU to a high degree! Ok, Archeops isn't that usable, nor is Electivire, and Golbat as things have been is bad too, so honestly stop using those, but the rest of them are power packed LU beasts, use those things because they actually make for good teams!

    Anyway as far as potential suspects are concerned, with the loss of some of our core and key Pokemon, we're looking at likely suspecting the following Pokemon within the start of the new tier shift:

    Nidoqueen
    Tyrantrum

    Test out and gather opinions on Mega Ampharos, Toxicroak, and likely Roserade. Any other opinions are up for discussion too, so if you have any suggestions on negative existances in the metagame, feel free to discuss and nominate them for suspects. This is probably where we'll start up for the tier shift, so feel free to start discussing the drops, how the rises will impact the metagame without them being here, and cores and combinations that are to be found successful in as the metagame evolves.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
    G00GLE, Aurist, Joyverse and 2 others like this.
  2. NaCl

    NaCl Лина Пегушина

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    Dropping from LU to NU:
    Dragalge

    how lol

    pretty glad to see a Nidoqueen's suspect, it should have been made long time ago maybe, she always has been an overcentralizing threat with fantastic offensive presence, solid defensive stats and typing, and a pack of cool utility moves and perfect coverage.

    Not sure about Tyrantrum at all, Steelix is still in the tier, also with Donphan dropping and other threats that he can't make advantage off it will have harder time to shine (still it will be one of the best Scarf user in the tier)

    pretty hyped to see what Toxicroak and Roserade will bring to the tier (I guess that Roserade will have a similar role to Venusaur in RU), and maybe we will se an increase on Dragalge's usage for this two (I hope lol)
     
    Aurist and Funbot28 like this.
  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    1) Good fucking question.
    2) Yeah figure it should be time to deal with the wish-wash of Queen who will still be an iffy thing because it's centralizing, arguably broken, but technically fine, and not exactly super broken that you have to combine a lot to deal with. Probably the best time with a few things leaving, and the meta looking to shift even more in it's favor to an extent.
    3) Honestly, even with Donphan dropping and Hitmontop coming back, it might not turn out to be so bad...but none of these things have reliable recover, doesn't stop Scarf Dino from being aids to like most everything else, and Banded Dino actually 2hkos those two drops on their full defensive sets. Sure, you can't just HEAD SMASH spam....but Outrage is still hella powerful that it can throw around to cripple/kill some defensive checks to it. We'll see, but like outside Steelix and now Donphan, most of it's checks to stopping Head Smash are still passive as hell, so we'd like to at least give this one a proper look over.
    4) Roserade likely will be better since the speed tier is higher and it hits harder at the cost of some defensive bulk. But it can do a lot more than Venu imo.
    5) Even if it doesn't give rise to usage, Dragalge is like one of the things I want to get looked at soon too, it's kind of got iffy vibes especially now that Slowking is gone, there's no Mega Aggron, and if Queen or Dino or both leave the tier, it'll be more harder to handle for some offensive teams on the get a kill give a kill style of battle.

    Oh and, because I was waiting for Draciel to verify this, but Heliolisk dropped to LU as well. He overlooked it by mistake when doing the tiering for this cycle, but Heliolisk is free in LU now.
     
  4. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I don't really agree with a Nidoqueen suspect. Yes she is super effective of either being a defensive or offensive hazard supporter that beats out most other setters and hazard removers, but its nothing over the edge. The problem is that you cannot invest in both offense and defense too much, so she usually either lacks the power to net the 2HKOes that she wants to get or she gets 2HKOed or sometimes OHKOed in powerful attacks in return. I also don't think she is too centralizing as balance and offense teams usually automatically have an answer to it due to the exploitation of her common weaknesses such as Psychic and Ground types attacks. Especially now that a new Poison type spiker has arrived in Roserade, her utility may diminish a bit (btw Slowking was not really a check unless it was AV). If it was at the time when Porygon2 was banned, maybe I would have considered it, but I feel the meta has adapted enough with dealing and playing around it. Its a top tier mon, and that's fine to have imo.

    Ban the stupid Dino tho...
     
  5. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    It's kind of the thing with Queen though, and has been ever since Generation 5 lol. It's that Queen is arguably too good of a wallbreaker with almost no drawbacks...but it's not like it's the most difficult thing to revenge kill or kill in one shot if you just happen to be faster than it with enough force. I mean Gen 5 RU over on Smogon unbanned and banned it like a good 3-4 times with several suspects iirc. So, it kind of shows people have a middling opinion on what to be considered either "broken" or "unhealthy" for the metagame when it comes to very certain Pokemon. She is also one of those few Pokemon you can dial down and mix a bulk and offensive spread or go to the extreme on either end of the spectrum where she's very bulky and certain Pokemon types will have troubles and in turn create heavy pressure to kill, or she's gonna be fast and strong enough you need to create offensive pressure to pile it on her, with only a certain amount of switch play being open to her standard sets, and most revenge plays can be answered with certain partners to maximize her effectiveness. Also, if you didn't give any SpDef evs to a Slowking or at least, a SpDef boosting nature, yeah it wasn't a check, but that wouldn't make it exactly a special wall, however AV or a mixed Defense Slowking (Only needs Sp.Def nature + like 40-50 some EVs) and any Sludge Wave or EP becomes a 3hko, and given that it can run Slack Off, it'll out recover until a crit happens. Soft check, but still a technical check. Also it can take a lot to beat or work around Queen, so it's worth the discussion. That's not saying it'll get banned, but it is a reason it's a suspect discussion.