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Suspect Discussion - Nidoqueen [Banned]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Aurist, Jul 7, 2016.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of banning Nidoqueen from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Nidoqueen as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.

    ---
    Additional note for this Nidoqueen suspect:
    ---
    Try to take into account the recent LU shifts and how they've affected Nidoqueen's position in the tier, what the tier has lost and gained in terms of checks and counters to Nidoqueen. This could be a controversial suspect because she's been such an integral part of the tier all gen, but as things have shifted over time the leaders have felt a suspect is in order. Thanks and keep on posting!
     
  2. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I actually believe Nidoqueen has a positive impact to the LU meta game and that's is why it has never been suspected until now. It's acts as a great offensive glue mon to balance and Offense builds as it can reliably guarantee hazard support due to it threatening other hazard setters and removers, and it is also able to check some prominent attackers in Toxicroak, Roserade, and Emboar. It does hit incredibly hard and offensive sets with EP/ Ice Beam / Sludge Wave / SR has vey few reliable counters, but Nidoqueen's Speed and vulnerability to get worn down quite easily does not allow it to wallbreal as efficiently as it wants to. Also being weak to incredibly common typing a such as Water and Ground does not help it when it wants to come in limiting its switchin opportunities.

    I feel that Nidoqueen is an amazing mon in the meta (possibly the best), but it is quite prepared for as a offensive threat with many teams carrying options to deal with it naturally due to how simple it can be. I thought it would have become a problem when Porygon2 was banned, but that did not seem to be the case imo.

    So ya, No Ban.
     
  3. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    I don't see any positive impact in Nidoqueen being LU: it bops half the tier with Earth Power/Sludge Wave/Ice beam/Thunderbolt, it packs so little counters and can play both offensive or defensive sets. It makes some pokemon totally useless due to the fact it has an amazing bulk. On top of that it has SR, Toxic Spikes and an amazing movepool to use in any team. When one of your only way of dealing with it is actually using AV spe def Alomomola with Mirror Coat, then you know you have a serious problem with Nidoqueen. Personally i think it's too much for LU, and if Steelix gets broken after Queen leaving then just ban Steelix, but let LU breath a bit as it's cancerous at the moment
     
  4. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Other wall breakers do exist atm that bop half the tier with their power and coverage options such a as Sigilyph, Tyrantrum, Meloetta, Emboar, and Dragalge, and the two first options also having access to great speed which enhances their disruptive capabilities. These mons also pack very few counters, yet they are still healthy for the meta (Except Tyrantrum and maybe Dragalge). No one is arguing Nidoqueen's power, but you must also look at the other attributes such as her lackluster speed and poor defensive typing that limits her from breaking teams completely. I also don't believe that it makes any relevant Pokemon useless besides niche irrelevant options (if u have examples, please state them).

    Also AV Alo is trash don't bring that up please :( and I never mentioned Mega Steelix being broken afterwards.

    Edit: I also forgot to mention that Roserade has become the better Tspiker in tier atm.
     
  5. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    They can all be countered fairly ok with walls such as Spiritomb, Alomomola, Bronzong etc, Nidoqueen beats all of them with the good set
     
    Lacus Clyne likes this.
  6. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Yes but these wall breaker has coverage options such as Dazzling Gleam for Meloetta and Sigilyph for Spritomb and Super Power and Focus Blast respectively on Tyrantrum and Dragalge for Brozong. They too can get past all there counters with there coverage options, yet discussing this leads into the argument of 4MSS...

    also is the good set ur mentioning AoA? Cause I believe SR LO is its best set.
     
    Dominique-XLR likes this.
  7. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    Nidoqueen gets hard countered by Goodra and last I checked it's still in the tier. I'm seconding Funbot28 that Rocks+ LO 3 attacks is clearly the better set. The whole no counter wall breaker thing is clearly done better by plenty of other mons like Exploud or Emboar, and they hit neutral stuff way harder. The fact that it needs all 4 slots to get anywhere near that level says a lot imo.
    The sheer number of things that can switch into 3/4th of its set makes Nidoqueens job much more difficult compared to other wallbreakers. The choice between Ice Beam and Fire Blast is the difference between whether Zong/Escavalier walls you or Gligar/Flygon, and that's taking AOA into consideration. It's plethora of weakness means its easy to force out/threaten KO.

    Nidoqueen for me is a master of role compression. That means it often gives the impression of possessing the ability to have it's cake and it eat too, which is far from actual truth. It has bad stats, so it depends solely on ev investment and boosted nature to get anything done. The defensive set is understandably weak and gets worn down fast trying to check too many stuff, all the while having a ton of common exploitable weaknesses. The offensive set is surprisingly frail getting 2hkod-3hkod by resisted hits (clean 2hko by Lee HJK is a good example).

    I can see that it's kinda difficult for stall to handle without Goodra, though I can't for my life remember a time when 2-5 mons didn't make life impossible for a stall player.
     
    Funbot28 likes this.
  8. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Honestly, the only reason we haven't brought ourselves to do it was because we liked to give things enough time to overall settle and work after things are introduced and see how things have gone, and that more or less one or two bigger overlaying threats living in the tier that were more or less worse in most cases, that people would rather see done because generally they were the speed freaks that the tier didn't have adequate answers to overall deal with just because of how much speed is such an important factor, that combine with their general power, it was kind of stupid to deal with (re: Moltres, Celebi, Zoroark, Noivern, etc.) That we're at the point that none of the super speedsters have an unfair advantage against the rest of the tier without concrete answers in general, and thus we can work on some of the more we can focus more on the ones aren't super fast, but have other qualities that make them a presence that is unhealthy for the metagame. It's not that we haven't been intending because we're fine with Nidoqueen, it's just other Pokemon popped up that made for ridiculous efforts for teams to actively handle without resorting to similar shenanigans. That and because we're nearing the end of gen 6 tiering, we might as well get the one suspect that likely will have 50/50 split arguments done now and work from there for the next few months before Sun/Moon come out.

    Maybe I'm missing a few things, but I'll go through this one by one.

    1. Goodra isn't a hard counter. It's a Soft Counter/Hard Check and that's only with AssVest or rolling max HP/Sp.Def. That or running into a defensive Queen which isn't invested into Sp.Att. Ice Beam can do the 3HKO and if SR is up well Goodra is pressed for recovery which it doesn't have outside of using Rest. Switching in is still pretty hard to do in general for the gooey dragon.

    2. Purely Exploud and Emboar are stronger neutral wallbreakers, however having checks in general by running Steel/Rock types or combination of Fire check and Electric check for Emboar is pretty common in itself as well because that's just how the tier is. Difference on them vs Queen, is they use Choice items to be super scary wallbreakers, while occasionally using a different item if you can make a team to bluff said Choice just to get certain switches. But, yeah they have to really rely on Choice items to effectively do their jobs for many teams and in common building. Queen purely can do with just 4 moves and Life Orb to have such a free range of versatility threatens more than any other wallbreaker, because in general with just SR instead of pulling things into 2HKO range, it does with OHKOs and not having to be locked into one specific move. Even if you make the right move, she can easily kill you the next turn with the proper move anyway in one shot because that's how strong she is, unlike others who might actually need to use two hits, as long as she is faster which for a majority of her switch ins which use type immunity on the correct switch, she likely will be anyway.

    3. There's not a lot of things that actually switch into it's sets very easily. 2/3rds of it's coverage in general is pretty hard for many Pokemon to switch into. Sludge Wave has an all encompassing damage hit meter for many Pokemon in the tier, and what it can't hit for much, Earth Power or Ice Beam compensate. There's a pretty limited amount of things that won't mind in general switching into any of it's given moves being Flygon (No predicted Ice Beam hope), Not Gligar because it's UU and not LU, Jellicent and Bronzong, sometimes Escavalier if sans Fire Blast on the set. Which given there's Pokemon that do a good job using SR that don't build up on weaknesses that Grounds/Poison in general have (Uxie, Zong, Smeargle, Shuckle (Can I solely ban Sticky Webs yet?), Druddigon, Registeel), can give you opportunities to take full advantage of Queen's wallbreaking nature by using Fire Blast as it's 4th move.

    4. And thus going to thought 4 into the split it has of being a fully offensive and effective wallbreaker, capable of threatening many offensive Pokemon due to its speed being higher than the somewhat kind of bulky Wallbreakers we call Emboar and Exploud, and not having the crippling weakness of being easily forced out due to a certain type weakness that they can't overcome like Braviary, Gallade, that sort due to an ineffective movepool. As well on the other spectrum being a Defensive wallbreaker that gives many offensive Pokemon problems as it's harder to kill, and can still effectively kill without much investment, because hey, Offensive Pokemon are frail, but it gives many general bulky Pokemon with more neutrality a better chance to effectively do something, because it's not hitting as hard.

    This is honestly the scary part of Nidoqueen in the tier for me is that, there's hardly a distinct line for either of these sets outside going fully into certain stats to max out the coverage to a certain side of threats or group of Pokemon, is that you can adjust your HP, Speed, Sp.Attack, and Defense EVs into a mixed group of sets that still makes it incredibly difficult to figure out the Queen and if you can beat it or not due to how naturally bulky it can be, and because of how scarily fast it can be for a general group of Pokemon, while not necessarily needing a huge amount of Sp.Att EVs to be an offensive general threat. It can easily blur the speed and bulk tiers and easily can make you question whether or not you can actually kill. Also given that it has 3 huge things that work in it's favor in an immunity to Electric types moves, and resistance to Fighting and Fairy type moves, is a huge factor that deals into Queens favor as these types can just give away free turns/kills due to their inability to do a thing against Nidoqueen except in certain cases. Which is more than practically every other pure wallbreaker can say where their abilities generally are what they can outspeed.

    I'll give that overall, there's a factor to how you can generally wear it down with hopefully something that can tank a hit, or using an immunity to one of it's moves to hopefully get a hit in on a 2nd turn, because while Queen is adequately "fast" for most of the tier, there are so many faster threats that with at least an immunity to one of it's main STABs, and then cleaning it off with something faster again, but that requires a lot of pin point predicting because seriously there's very little that is actively hoping to come into something unless you can get the right immunity switch. Not just that but, for some of the naturally faster Pokemon that could want to run more bulkier sets, you'll need to have a certain degree of speed to HOPE to outspeed it and wear it down faster for your team. Honestly looking at it objectively, Nidoqueen somewhat forces a lot of Pokemon to put in extra to something to help beat it, or can force you to basically play revenge kill the Queen with something that will be offensively faster and strong enough to at least possibly one shot it from around 80% of health because if it takes advantage of it's immunities/resistances, it'll be in the 70-80% range after one hit. Doable, but it's asking a lot from things, especially considering how easy it is to take advantage of a certain high amount of our breakers having a certain type group that they can't hit due to type effectiveness.

    I mean I figured this would be a controversial suspect, as Queen apparently always is, but honestly Offensive Queen is pretty much a walking grim reaper for many things in the tier, and it's kind of a broken thing that helped kind of keep a few more broken things currently in check because it gets way more free kills just on being a Sheer Force user, being faster than a general bulky offensive portion of the tier, and unlike others with coverage to hit other threats, it can easily punish correct switch ins anyway with overwhelming power to one shot instead of say two shot like other wallbreakers have to. A lot of dealing with it generally comes down to going to some extreme lengths to outright KO it, or double up on some faster mons that will can technically combo it due to being able to capably wear it down, though it's capable of bringing down most of a team pretty easily by itself while using a variety of partners to cover certain things that could actually kill it since having checks and counters to things like Sigilyph, Meloetta, Virizion, Rotom forms, etc. isn't TOO hard to think up just to conserve Queen if necessary, as well as having way more questionable survivability than Queen because there are more detriments to them that players can take advantage. Add in Queen pretty much keeps a lot of Pokemon currently down because again that free turns/kills thing she does, while generally being able to tank a hit if for whatever reason she doesn't kill them, she's honestly a stress on teambuilding as a whole for the tier, while you try to come up with answers to other threats and kind of puts a limiter on what you can use or do.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
    Aurist and Edna like this.
  9. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this victini into gengar Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    nidoqueen is definitely controversial as the previous posts showed, but ill elaborate on the effect of nidoqueen on the new mons.
    hitmontop, toxicroak and ampharos are all kept in check by nidoqueen and makes them less viable than they are, frankly im not sure if this is a good or bad element since nidoqueen already makes so many other mons less viable, and THAT leads me to my main argument of nidoqueen crippling the viability of several pokemons in the tier, which makes it unhealthy. Nidoqueen can definitely 2hko or ohko almost the whole tier, i'm aware that it needs to guess correctly many of the times, but often a stab followed by a coverage move is usually enough to do the job. For example, swave followed by a tbolt can take down most waters who will have to try to recover after the wave, but tbolt just really puts them in critical health, also the fact that it's a rocker able to ohko or 2hko all defoggers and spinners is also a major point, putting a strain on hitmontop and donphan.
    Another point is nidoqueen can abuse the new partners it got to forgo tbolt and have fireblast or a hazard since it can now partner up with the best 3 water counters in the game, natural cure rose, dry skin croak and dry skin heliolisk, as well as having rotom-c added.
    lu probably wont miss nidoqueen since we got rose/croak, which are other dual stab poison mons that are in my opinion both great and simply less "broken" than nidoqueen.
     
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  10. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    It's the end of an era, Nidoqueen finally reached a point where it was just too much for the tier and will consequently be banned from the ORAS LU tier. Its incredible versatility in coverage and wallbreaking potential alongside its well above average bulk for an offensive mon and hazard setting potential always kept it at the top of the pack in LU and was one of the defining pokemon of the tier for a lot of the generation of XY and ORAS. However as the tier has fluctuated, Nidoqueen's job has simply gotten easier and easier over time with new partners arriving steadily, and checks leaving the tier just as steadily. We feel this has pushed Nidoqueen over the top, and that banning her will give the tier some room to breathe, without there being this pokemon in the tier that's not just objectively a power level higher than the rest of the tier, but actively dissuading the use of a lot of otherwise really good pokemon.

    Thanks to all for taking part in this suspect, we really can't make progress without your activity so it's appreciated.
     
    gengar17 and Finchinator like this.
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