1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Guest, due to a lack of interest, playerbase, and general desire to continue, PO will hereby cease our separate tiering and adopt Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.

    Dismiss Notice

Sablenite Suspect Discussion [Not Banned]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Finchinator, Oct 19, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,219
    Likes Received:
    2,126
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    Discuss the possibility of Mega Sableye (Sablenite) being banned from the ORAS OU tier. Use this thread to discuss Mega Sableye's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Mega Sableye should be banned or if it should stay in the ORAS OU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes a post based on theorymon risks being infracted.

    Important notes:
    • Stay on topic.
    • Post intelligently (common sense!!!)
    • Make meaningful posts. If your post doesn't contain any content, it is prone to being deleted. For example, posts that agree/don't agree with a certain point without any justification or explanation.
    Any questions, comments, or concerns can be directed at myself. Happy posting!

    --- Post updated ---
    The exact means of deciding the verdict of this suspect is still up in the air and until I discuss this with Draciel, who I recently PMd, will not be disclosed. Until then, post your opinions and try to use as much justification as possible. Thank you and I will keep everyone updated!
     
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,219
    Likes Received:
    2,126
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    The suspect will not be a vote of any sort, but it will be decided based on the consensus of valid arguments in the thread in conjunction with my own opinion - for any questions on how I will factor everything into perspective, please ask me and feel free to say anything you'd like so the whole process and decision is as crystal clear as possible to everyone who is discussing.
     
  3. panda dog

    panda dog #single

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    3
    Just going to say, as a M-Sableye user I have to say that in facti he is OP but just when paired with some mons like Clefable Chansey or Skarm, outside of stall he has 0 uses and obviously Stall teams aren't impossible to win against. If you just go with stallbreakers like mixed Thundurus, TG manaphy, SubCM keldy etc, the team is pretty much done unless the other plays really bad. I don't think Sablenite is worth a suspect, but well probably a lot of people can disagree with me...
     
    Terrie123 likes this.
  4. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    139
    PO Trainer Name:
    Sylar / Lameflame
    Given that I have already made one lengthy post sharing my personal thoughts on Mega Sableye here, what I would like to do instead is to consolidate what I believe to be the pro-ban and anti-ban arguments that have the most merit for this suspect discussion. While I should be fair in stating that I leaned pro-ban in my earlier post and have for some time now, I am fully prepared to play in a metagame with or without Sableye so I'm more interested in the quality of the discussion as a whole rather than pushing one side over the other.


    Ban Mega Sableye

    • Controlling the Hazard Game:

      Perhaps the most noteworthy aspect of Mega Sableye's utility is the ease at which it allows the user to take control of the hazard game. Setting and removing hazards in ORAS already differs noticeably from earlier generations with the new Defog mechanics & distribution alongside new Magic Bounce users making hazard removal easier than ever before. However, no single pokemon has ever facilitated a player's capacity to control the hazard game more than Mega Sableye given the sheer number of viable Stealth Rock + Spikes/T-spikes setters that outright lose to it 1v1, and whom Sableye may often freely switch into with little to no cost. The only viable Stealth Rock setters that have otherwise favorable odds to set rocks against Sableye are Clefable, Heatran, Mega Diancie and Mold Breaker Excadrill. I use the term "viable" very liberally in this case, because truthfully pokemon like Bisharp, Mega Pinsir, Nidoking, even Gliscor etc. really do not want to have to fit rocks into one of their four highly constrained move slots just to surprise Mega Sableye users once or twice throughout a battle. To elaborate further, pokemon like Mew & Jirachi should not have to run some gimmick Skill Swap set to beat Sableye, and pokemon such as Landorus-T & Garchomp who might otherwise have sets or the capacity to break Sableye are now further stifled from doing so given the pressure to actually set rocks, not get burned/lose 1v1 and then find time to set-up, which are luxuries far easier to state on paper than actually achieve practically. I don't consider forcing a very large pool of pokemon with otherwise useful sets (many that need coverage / boosting / utility options to further improve their match-up versus the types of restrictive teams Sableye is found on) to be a healthy level of "adaptation" to the metagame. Rather, it is more akin to nearly everything running Earthquake or arbitrary semi-useless coverage just to hit Aegislash. We can argue this point back and forth but I can personally guarantee that you will never see a SpDef Excadrill, a Mega Diancie, Nidoking, offensive Lando/Chomp, etc. running Stealth Rocks ever again in a metagame without Sableye, because they are just not good, and neither are many other "answers" that exist for the sole and express purpose of surprising Sableye.
    • Forming restrictive cores:

      The fact that Mega Sableye performs its role in controlling the hazard game so well is only part of a broader issue that those who seek to ban Sableye wish to highlight. While Sableye has found success on a variety of balance/bulky offense and semi-stall teams throughout ORAS, it is fairly obvious by this point that its utility and usefulness on Stall archetypes further exaggerate its potential in a variety of different respects. Continuing on controlling the hazard game, not only does Mega Sableye beat a vast majority of common rocks setters by itself, but when in tandem with other teammates such as Skarmory, Dugtrio or Zapdos, you as a Sableye user can effectively shut down all but maybe 1-2 viable rocks users in the entire OU tier. Especially in the case of Dugtrio, of the four "best" answers to setting hazards against Mega Sableye, all but one are trapped and killed leaving you with essentially just Clefable to set rocks. Sableye + Skarmory leaves you with realistically only Heatran, unless you really feel strongly for making the case about some other niche set I have dismissed earlier. What this leads to is a lack of repercussions for the stall player to mindlessly switch in their designated counter to every method of counter-play you prepared, as the extra ~12% may well be the difference between a 2hko vs 3hko, or the slight difference in momentum that can allow you to actually outplay your opponent's countermeasures versus gaining no ground whatsoever. Now, I am not one of those individuals who feels entitled to hazards + double switches as the best and only method of counter play to stall. But, with that being said, if you are no longer actually rewarded with hazard/chip damage for making intelligent switches and plays, your team of 6 individual pokemon often cannot remove one another's checks and counters against a team of 6 synergistic walls who pay no consequence for switching into their designated counter ad nauseum. The extent with which this is possible on a team featuring Mega Sableye is far and away greater than a team without it, and every single development for Stall as a playstyle this generation (Gothitelle, Weavile, WonderTrio, Dugtrio+Zapdos+Suicune, etc.) has always involved Sableye forming some type of heavily restrictive core with a trapper or wall that could not be replicated without Sableye and its specific qualities. This only serves to further restrict the number of truly viable stallbreakers that aren't shut down by Sableye, don't lose to trapping and can break past most of Sableye's common partners.
    • Exacerbating match-up woes & "gimmick" strategies:

      Mega Sableye's capacity to form very restrictive cores does not only apply to the hazard game, however, as the recent concern about Dugrio + Arena Trap might demonstrate. Now, it is true that ORAS has increased the instances of match-up restriction inherent in competitive play, and that stall is, has always been and always will be a play style that depends on match-up to succeed. However, as I discussed more in-depth in my earlier post linked above, there does come a point where you have to ask whether the level of centralization (of a playstyle and generally), restriction on teambuilding and the resulting cores that Sableye promotes are healthy for the metagame. I am not going to get into whether or not these cores are competitive or not, as that is simply subjective and not a winning point on either side. What I will highlight, though, is that there are undeniably several viable and even prominent archetypes of Sableye-stall (and semi-stall), which most of the time do crumble to 1-2 designated stallbreakers (e.g. Mega Heracross + Crawdaunt, Mega Diancie + Bulk up Talonflame, NP Togekiss, SubCM Keldeo, Mega Gardevoir + Latias, etc.), but which otherwise perform exceptionally well in the absence of the necessary offensive countermeasure against them. Put simply, you cannot simply choose one of the aforementioned offensive cores and reasonably feel secure that you have "prepared for Sableye stall". You have only realistically prepared for one or two variants, and if you prepare for the wrong style, your odds of winning the game have just decreased substantially from team preview no matter how well you play. To many players, the fact that "more skillful play" is rendered irrelevant by the ubiquitous nature of Mega Sableye on stall and the restrictiveness it forces in your choice of stallbreakers and hazard setters is the definition of uncompetitive, and while I am not prepared to echo that exact sentiment, I do feel that one should have some method of counter-play to any team archetype you face beyond "I brought the right stuff this time".
    Keeping Sableye in OU

    • Sableye is Overloaded with marginal bulk:

      There are many ways that you can go about discussing or phrasing this point, but while Mega Sableye does make use of great reliable recovery options, solid typing and def/spdef base stats, between its very average HP stat and the sheer number of threats it needs to handle hax-free during a battle, it is sure to be worn down. Put simply, people do make double switches on Mega Sableye as it is often forced into play on many occasions to 1v1 the current hazard setter in play or the expected one, and this is rather simple to take advantage of. I understand that prediction alone is a shoddy argument, but I'm talking less about "prediction" and more about anticipating the very blatantly obvious in-game situations where a player absolutely needs to send in Sableye to actually do its job blocking hazards or walling potent threats like Mega Medicham. Current metagame trends do not help Mega Sableye either given just how prominent the VoltTurn + wallbreaker(s) archetype has become, along with the surge in usage of Mega Lopunny. What this amounts to is effectively netting the same "chip" damage that Sableye otherwise seeks to prevent from hazards through repeated VoltTurning/simple predictions that make it far more difficult to avoid 2hkos and consistently check the breakers it is meant to check. It should be fairly obvious, but Sableye's capacity to do this is pressured even further when it is not surrounded by 4-5 other dedicated walls to serve as back-up measures to certain breakers and ease prediction, and this is largely why outside of Stall, Mega Sableye is hardly ever seen as an issue. It does not have "bad" survivability by any means, but the extent to which many teams over-rely on it (especially as the teams become more and more offensive in nature) to check OU's many stallbreakers eventually wears it down with intelligent play.

    • There are many available counter-measures to Sableye itself:

      Yes, Sableye has a wide arrangement of checks and hard-counters that I could list off and discuss, but that argument makes me physically ill to read every time it is mentioned in a suspect for either pro/anti ban and so I'm just not getting into it.

      What I would like to discuss instead are the numerous ways in which Sableye can be "lured", or more broadly taken advantage of. The fact that Sableye needs to be both mega evolved, kept relatively healthy and immediately sent into play against a variety of common hazard setters/breakers is otherwise exploited when you run offensive lure sets on pokemon it would otherwise comfortably beat 1v1. A few notable examples are SD (+/- Lum) Garchomp & Landorus-T, CM Latios, Lum SD Bisharp, SubCM Keldeo, SubDD/RestoChesto Gyarados & Taunt Mega Gyarados, VinCune, Toxic Orb Breloom sets, NP Infernape, DG LO Alakazam, etc. There are certainly more that I haven't listed but my goal is less about naming all the different sets you can use and more about illustrating how many options you actually do have for innovation and skillful preparation. Some pokemon already do possess the capacity to 2hko or nearly 2hko Sableye, such as Terrakion or Tornadus-T, and many others like Gengar or offensive Mega Scizor find this even easier with very minimal prior damage. I do fully realize that certain sets are less preferable than others some of the time, but I think there is a difference in expectation between running coverage/boosting/still viable items on certain popular pokemon as opposed to things like Shed Shell Manaphy/Togekiss as one example. While it is true that most of the controversy around Sableye is more about its synergy with other teammates and less about Sableye itself, managing to kill or severely dent Sableye is not the most difficult task and once you do so, you have removed a very crucial component of a team that now can be handled by intelligently managing your hazards, double switches or by simply having breakers such as Medicham, Kyurem-B or Metagross that can handle defensive teams more or less by themselves.
    Again, I want to reiterate that these are just some of the best arguments I feel should be weighted against each other for both sides of the discussion. They are not the only arguments, but I just wanted to steer the direction away from really trivial things (like checks & counters) and more about the type of metagame we seek to have and if Mega Sableye conflicts in any way with that. Feel free to agree or disagree fully or in part with any of my points, because I'm really not too overly passionate in one direction or another at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
    Draciel, Rabidragon, Slurmz and 9 others like this.
  5. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,219
    Likes Received:
    2,126
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    I feel like you're a bit off-base here. While you do acknowledge the fact that Mega Sableye isn't exactly the conventional, overpowering 'broken' in any sense, you don't take into consideration the practical impact of Mega Sableye and if/if not that leads it to being broken/banworthy - basically, you neglect to mention Magic Bounce and if the presence of that in conjunction with all of the other things Mega Sableye brings to the table makes it banworthy or not and you just sorta mention that it's a defensive presence that's often seen on stall and not other archetypes. This is true - Mega Sableye is shitty on non-stall teams and that's a strong limiting factor - but the lack of practical acknowledgement makes the substance of this argument lackluster.

    ----
    With this all said, and I do acknowledge points on both sides of the spectrum and I will not be using my own opinion to totally sway the verdict of the suspect unless the arguments on one side are clearly worse than those on the other or one side simply stands out, I believe Mega Sableye is not banworthy, nor broken in any sense.

    Mega Sableye's main use is on teams stall teams, as stated above. Here are some of the most common examples:

    [​IMG] - "Tele stall" known as the team that made Dugtrio "controversial" and Zapdos much more popular as a defog user and defensive presence. This team has done very well on the ladder in the past and has periodic success in tournaments, but there are certainly various "outs" against it and there are means of outplaying it if you are prepared to a certain extent that make me contemplate if there even is a problem at hand.
    [​IMG] - "ABR stall" is the main hard stall team in the metagame that has been popular for almost six months now and still is going fairly strong. It has been used in dozens of tournament games and by many, many ladder players to scale the ladder. Some people are more successful than others with it because you have to use the team in a certain fashion for it to truly be effective, but for those that get it down pat, it's quite effective. Nevertheless, there are still "outs" against it and this team is far from unbeatable.

    [​IMG] - there are also gimmicky teams like this branflakes sheddy team that have been seen around, but that's not the main focus here and there are ways around this

    [​IMG] - finally, there are also other variants of stall, such as this one that dj trump used to peak showdown ladder and i'm sure others have tried as well, but it's a similar dynamic to other stall, just w/ a diff set of vulnerabilities, to some extent

    On each of these teams, Mega Sableye's defensive presence in itself is nothing special. Sure, it can wall a handful of things such as (Mega) Alakazam, Mega Medicham, and Reuniclus that runs PsyFight coverage, but there are numerous other Pokemon that can fill this void. The defensive presence of Mega Sableye is not what makes it controversial at all and there's no debating this point, in my opinion. What makes it controversial is the fact that it brings a convenient, situationally effective Magic Bounce user to these type of stall teams that makes setting up hazards and doing other things that normally are easier to find opportunities to do a struggle. In the past, setting up Spikes and aggressive switching, hard hitting, and sometimes sweeping has been seen as a means of breaking through stall if a team is prepared and played well, but that means of counterplay is eliminated due to the presence of Mega Sableye.

    The inherent question that decides this suspect's outcome, in my eyes, is if that counterplay method being eliminated makes the archetypes listed above and various others, which I will later dive into, unhealthy for the state of the tier and, therefore, indirectly makes Mega Sableye banworthy on the line of logic that it makes these teams and gameplay uncompetitive.

    In my opinion, it doesn't have the necessary impact to deem the above claims true or valid to the extent that it's banworthy. Although some individuals may argue that this is the metagame shifting to cater to Mega Sabelye's constant presence on stall, there are various common SR setters that are seen on balance and offense that can set-up on Mega Sableye or at least force the issue - Clefable, offensive Landorus-T, some offensive Garchomp (Lum SD SR is the main one), Heatran, to some extent, and the rare and hardly noteworthy Mold Breaker Excadrill. With Stealth Rocks up, there is still some damage being inflicted upon everything when they switch in, so there is at least something to work with when it comes to momentum and aggressive play when trying to break stall, but even then, Spikes in conjunction with SR has usually been the norm when resorting to this method as a hard means of breaking stall in BW and even DPP and ADV, to varying extents. Moreover, it's worth nothing that Mega Sableye completely blocks every noteworthy Spike setting option - mainly Ferrothorn and Skarmory.

    With Mega Sableye being present, stall teams essentially have to limit their overall building, however, because of the aforementioned lack of hardcore defensive synergy it provides, so there are holes in teams - for example, a well-played Pursuit in conjunction with numerous things can spell doom in the long haul for stall while pokemon like Mega-Heracross can essentially solo stall, especially if they have the right set or support. Taunt Heatran, some RD Manaphy, Mega Pinsir with some support, CM Reuniclus that can touch Mega Sableye (CM GK is something that saw a few uses in OLT and it was hilariously effective), Crawdaunt, CB Kyurem-B, etc. can be used to break stall in various ways while pokemon like Mega-Medicham, Keldeo, Mega Diancie, Weavile, Mega Gardevoir, Mega-Metagross with the right moves, and Mega Gyarados can all be seen as annoying for stall to deal with. There are ways to beat stall in the current metagame and a lot of the reason why people are struggling to deal with it is simply because of some options not being the most appealing in teambuilding and people being lazy when it comes to trying to have a team that performs well all-around. There isn't much of an excuse for being unprepared for stall and simply losing - most (if not all) well-built teams will at least stand a chance against stall and, therefore, it makes me hesitate to label anything on these teams banworthy if none have a truly broken quality about them and I think it's fair to say that Magic Bounce isn't a broken ability in itself given how long it has been usable on various pokemon without any cries for bans being present (yes, Mega Sableye is the bulkiest of all of those, but it also has drawbacks such as speed, lack of offensive presence, and not the best bulk out there - it's very much breakable and you can't deny that - so it's not exactly too stand-out here).

    It's also worth noting that if Mega Sableye is removed from the equation, Stall won't suddenly die. This is theory and not the core of my argument, but it has even been proven in the past year - stall can function without Mega Sableye and it even is more open to counterplay then because it now has room for six pokemon to check/counter all of the threats/breakers the metagame has to throw on it and it also is open to having a more diverse set of win conditions. Often times, stall with Mega Slowbro does exceedingly well on the ladder and in tournament play and they simply resort to defog on Zapdos or Skarmory to deal with hazards, but they now have a much more secure time due to having an extra defensive member to add to their counterplay scheme - holes like Mega Heracross and potentially PinsirMag can be cleaned up while the few things that MegaSableye does cover that are unique to it, like Mega Medicham, are also very possibly dealt with by alternatives if 1-2 pokemon are switched-up. Moreover, banning of Mega Sableye might simply make stall equally or very comparably viable, but switch-up the ways of defeating it from a set of breakers that I listed above to more hazard+momentum based play and other, currently less prominent breakers that defeat new trends and variants of stall. I don't think that banning Mega Sableye will even solve the problem as many think, but this is partially theory (although there is some current meta evidence as I previously alluded to) and not the heart of my argument, but in all actuality with Mega Sableye not being inherently broken itself, with stall being breakable and, imo, fairly 'healthy' as a standard right now (yes, it's annoying, but if you prepare you can have competitive, winnable games against it or you can even straight-up win if you prepare thoroughly for it and have the right match-up (i.e bringing MegaHera)), and there being no definitive certainty that this will 'fix' the 'problem' that might not even be a problem, I think that banning Mega Sableye is unnecessary and unwarranted.

    This wasn't too brief, but I will elaborate again later and likely address arguments on both sides when more come, but please - everyone - post your thoughts!
     
  6. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    41
    PO Trainer Name:
    [LS] AnuncioBot
    My humble thoughts about Mega Sableye

    Even that Mega Sableye has controversies, by completely inhibit the action of some pokémon and punish passive playstyles, he has certain flaws that I would like to put into evidence, in an attempt to explain why it is not broken for the tier.
    To ensure your mega evolution, always need to use Fake Out or Protect, limiting its movepool.
    Cannot run Itens (Leftovers).
    Even if he can control Skarmory, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn and others, he does not totally free of damage, always getting 25-35% damage on each switch, if the opponent uses a damage move. Forcing the constant use of Recover, because Mega Sableye must always keep 100% health to enter other threats, trying to prevent 2HKO.
    Mega Sableye is extremely slow. This favors offensive pressure for almost all the tier, increasing, along with the previous point, early wear of Recover.
    Magic Bounce not prevents side effects, such as poisoning from Sludge Bomb or burning from Scald. This allows up to Pokémon as Amoonguss and Seismitoad able to press Mega Sableye.
    Although their defenses are decent, your HP base is low.
    Mega Sableye is totally dependent of teammates, limiting its use to stall teams in 95% of cases.
    Mega Sableye is much favored by trappers, mainly Dugtrio. The fact that you can remove multiple checks / counters without counterplay is not something that can be placed as a quality of Mega Sableye, but of these trappers.
    Mega Sableye not prevent all SRocks users; Clefable, Excadrill Mold Breaker and offensive rock setters can run Rocks.
    Mega Sableye is a Pokémon that must be prepared, although it is one of the pillars of stall teams, not centralizes the metagame.

    Mega Sableye is a great Pokémon, play around it requires patience. Is need to prepare to face this, but the metagame is well prepared with many Clefable and powerful Choice / Wallbreakers to choose in the tier.
    A metagame without Mega Sableye will be resumed in HO Skarmory, BO Mega Medi, Balanced Hippo, Thorn and Starmie core and (Mega) Bro attempt of stall, and this can be so zzzz.

    Do not ban Mega Sableye.

    PS: Even though I am not in favor of the ban, a few days without Mega Sableye in ladder could be good for a real experience, not all players participated in showdown suspect last year.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016
  7. Draciel

    Draciel Now Or Never

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    854
    Likes Received:
    1,860
    PO Trainer Name:
    Neo
    Mega Sableye has been a controversial mon in OU for a long time, and the main reason has been about its over-centralization within the stall building itself, or that it's just too good at the hazard game, where the latter is probably the biggest pro-ban argument. However, the late-ORAS stage is different from what it used to be in early-ORAS; while Mega Sableye is very good at preventing hazards from passive mons like Chansey, Skarmory and Ferrothorn, the amount of SR-Setters it can reliably switch into is a lot less. Clefable, LO/SD Chomp, SD Landorus, Heatran, Excadrill (Mold Breaker) are among the top lead rock setters and see very high usage in OU. Among other things, even lead Azelf can use skill swap on it, defensive Lando/Chomp can just D-tail or U-turn on it untill it's in range of a couple of EQs. Overall the meta has shifted towards offense so much that we see a lot of OU mons which can beat sableye and also set up rocks as Mega Sableye can't switch in repeatedly on these. Mega Sab is also a huge momentum loser, considering it has to switch in multiple times to prevent hazards from going up, it's forced to used recover multiple times; giving free switchins to stallbreakers. Sab's biggest strength has been to punish players who play too passively, but that's very rarely the case in late-ORAS as players have realized that they just can't use too many passive mons and expect to beat mega-sab stall.

    To be honest, Mega Sab to me is no more broken than Mega Lopunny or Mega Medicham are. Mega Lopunny often has the ability to 6-0 frail offensive teams due to it's power and speed; similarly Mega Medicham can single-handedly demolish balance builds with only a couple of reliable switchins (Mega sab being an okay check). Should they be banned as well? How do we beat this mons in OU then? We adapt our playstyle by using stuff that can revenge kill them (Scarf mons like Lando), defensive mons that can take a hit and criple them in return (Tangrowth, Clefable). Mega Sableye makes us adapt our playstyle, which in my opinion is a good thing.

    Finch has already elaborated on a couple of potent Mega Sab teams which have been successful in the past so I'm not gonna elaborate on those and how to handle them. Bottom line is, Mega Sableye punishes passive playstyle, but it has a more than enough checks and counters in all sorts of playstyles at this stage of ORAS to be considered broken. If you keep losing to Mega Sab, adapt your game because there are plenty of ways to beat it.

    Tl;dr no ban.
     
    AnuncioBot and Joyverse like this.
  8. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    41
    PO Trainer Name:
    [LS] AnuncioBot
    After I have more experience in ladder on the suspect OU showdown (and get coil), I can maintain my position that Mega Sableye is not broken, and is necessary for the tier.
    The amount of players who expect to win just by playing passively with Ferrothorn / Hazard spam is depressing. I hope it will not be the same people who complain that stall is boring because it would be hypocrisy.
    I used two teams based on Dug stall to try to see if it would still be * easy * to achieve positive results.
    And against certain matchup the answer is yes. Ends up being a bit more time consuming to control hazards with 2 Defog mon (Zap Skar core), but still effective, and Dugtrio continues removing key mons, helping various partners, be Mega Venusaur, Mega Altaria, Lati twins or whatever .
    The unhealthy problem is the restriction that several builds have to break stall, needing to use multiple stallbreaker on the same team and having bad matchup against other playstyles.
    Just give freedom to the wall / stallbreaker and let the skill to solve problems against stall. When you have your victory condition removed without counterplay, prohibit Mega Sableye not solve the problem.
    Mega Venu stall are generally even less weak against Crawdaunt, which showed positive that a variety is possible and Mega Sableye is not required.
    I've seen three stall core Dug / Zap / Skar, working well with Mega Venusaur, Latias and Altaria.
    The increased use of Mega Medicham was something expected, and it shows how to work against this pokémon is complicated. (Plus with Pursuit destroying each ''check''.)
    Finally, Mega Sableye is healthy for the tier, it punishes players who want to abuse entry hazards and annoying moves. Several defensive teams end up restricteds with 2 slot to Defog.
    Less hazards, more Pokémon; less trappers, more freedom of counterplay.

    Do not Ban Sableye. Suspect Arena Trap. (Pursuit and Magnet Pull I'm looking at you too.)
     
  9. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,219
    Likes Received:
    2,126
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    It has been a week without discussion. If anyone would like to offer their thoughts that hasn't already or has, but wishes to further elaborate, please do so in the next few days.
     
  10. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    98
    Ok so through playing on the suspect ladder on Smogon (since they are holding their Mega Sableye Suspect rn), I was able to really see how the meta looks like without Mega Sab. I must say, my experiences laddering/teambuilding were truly more pleasant without having the fear to on allocating a specific spot on my team to beat it due to hazard stacking being so important vs stall. To me, Mega Sableye isnt like any other mon we had suspected or deemed "banworthy" before (ex: wallbreakers like Greninja and Hoopa-U, hazard setters like Deoxys Speed and Defense, setup sweepers like Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Lucario), which is why it may seem hard to draw a decisive conclusion on whether or no it deserves to be banned. I personally find that Mega Sableye does sway the hazard aspect of the match too much to the user of the mon due to the fact that it could shut down so many setters in accordance to its bulk, ability and typing. While options do exist that can reliably put up hazards against Mega Sab (ex: Clefable, Excadrill, Heatran), these options are all too suboptimal imo especially considering the rise of Mega Sabeleye being paired with Dugtrio to trap and get rid of all these countermeasures. Mega Sableye does get pressured at times and cannot wall everything do to its low 50 HP, but when played correctly by the Mega Sab user it could be extremely frustrating/impossible to deal with at times if the opponent does not have a good enough matchup/countermeasure to it, which I find is proven in many recent tournament matches by competent players who use Mega Sableye with the most efficiency. Mega Sableye is not "broken" per say, but its definitely unhealthy and a huge detriment to the metagame that I would much rather see banned.

    Ban Mega Sableye
     
  11. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,219
    Likes Received:
    2,126
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    Mega Sableye will not be banned from the ORAS OU tier. Thanks to everyone for discussing and please address me with any questions, comments, and concerns.
     
    AnuncioBot likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.