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[BW2] A Closer Look into BW2 OU

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Funbot28, Oct 23, 2016.

  1. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    May 17, 2015
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    approved by @Professor Oak
    Oak EDIT: Full clarity - he asked if he could make a past suspect thread, I said he could make one, but that it'd be highly unlikely it'd result in bans / unbans unless significant support was given.

    A Closer Look into BW2 OU
    Hello Past Gen forum, its Funbot28 and I just wanted to bring up some current issues I and many other BW OU players from Smogon have from the current PO iteration. We noticed that the metagame may have some current balance issues regarding the presence of a few powerful components that I will bring up and hopefully be discussed with the playerbase here.

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]
    #1) Swagger Clause:

    This is something that has quite bothered me for a while now since Swagger had been banned in Gen 6 OU. Basically the same arguments apply in Gen 5 OU as well since Swagger creates mindless 50/50s with the opponent that often decide the outcome of the match. It really adds no competitive aspect to the metagame and I feel this should be banned immediately because of this.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    #2) Baton Pass Clause:

    As like Swagger, the lack of a Baton Pass clause in BW OU also kinda left me boggled as well since BP is proven to also be an uncompetitive strategy that heavily depends on matchups in order to completely beat it. Full Baton Pass chain teams are almost impossible to beat at times and can skew the disparity between bad players and good players unjustly. I feel this should also be immediately banned as well.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    #3) Speed boosting Weather abilities:

    I also don't feel that Swift Swim is the only overpowering Speed Weather abilitiy as Chlorophyll and Sand Rush also can destroy many teams once they are weakened. A good example of this is the Sun offense core consisting of Ninetales, Venusaur, and Dugtrio where Duggy can trap Venu's best answer in Heatran and proceed to sweep the rest of the opposing team with ease due to Chlorophyll making it so hard to outspeed. Maybe in this case Venusaur could be the only thing suspected since it is the main abuser of it, but I feel it would still be an issue nonetheless.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    #4) Magic Guard Psychics:

    Magic Guard is an incredible ability that blocks all indirect damage from things such as hazards, status, and weather which is extremely important in BW. I feel that Reuniclus and Alakazam both abuse this ability too much in there own separate ways. Reuniclus becomes this nigh unstoppable wincon that can become extremely bulky after even just one Calm Mind boost, in which your opponent is forced to use powerful physical attacks (which Reuni could still avoid the 2HKO most of the time) and proceed to sweep with ease. Alakazam uses the ability to arguably become the best revenge killer in the meta. With a Focus Sash, your opponent is forced to hit it twice which could become detrimental against offensive teams due to Zam's amazing power and speed.


    #5) Garchomp:

    This is where I become less convinced, however it is known that Garchomp is one of the most deadly and versatile threats in the meta. It could be placed on a multitude of teams and perform a variety of sets according to the needs of the team , Sub Salac, SD Yache, LO Mixed, Offensive Stealth Rock, etc.. which makes it extremely hard to predict the set for the opponent. It also pertains very few reliable switchins which further improves its offensive utility.

    So a basic TL;DR could be seen as followed:

    #1) Ban Swagger
    #2) Ban Baton Pass
    #3) Suspect Speed boosting weather abiltities / Venusaur
    #4) Suspect Magic Guard/ Reuniclus & Alakazam
    #5) Suspect Garchomp?


    --- Post updated ---
    tagging prominent BW players

    @Dr. Doom
  2. We Three Kings

    We Three Kings Member

    Nov 29, 2015
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    #1) Mostly irrelevant, doesn't come up in tournament play often, and if the policy is to keep bans to a minimum, it's probably no reason to do anything about it. To me it doesn't make a difference since I don't think I've ever seen it once in the last two years or so.

    #2) Even less relevant. Full BP is not that great in BW, and it's not influential enough to warrant a ban.

    #3) If Excadrill is freed (which it apparently is), then Sand Stream + Sand Rush has to go. If not, then the lone abuser is Stoutland, which isn't that good to begin with, and nothing needs to be done. Sun is slightly more controversial. I was against the sun ban back when it was a topic of discussion on Smogon, but over the course of the last year I do believe the metagame has become a bit better.

    #4) This has been a topic for ages, and while Reuniclus has died down in usage, Alakazam is still a menacing mon mid to late-game, and this is solely due to Magic Guard (and the speed tier of course). I'm very much against an Alakazam suspect test, because it's does have counterplay, even more so with Excadrill. A full Magic Guard ban would be ridiculous, and definitely a step in the wrong direction.

    #5) Garchomp is arguably the best Pokemon in BW2 OU due to it's versatility, but unlike in DPP it's nowhere near as broken. It's defensive capabilities are good for the metagame in my opinion, and Garchomp itself feels very much like a mon you can slap onto most offense, similar to what Landorus-T is to bulkier teams in ORAS. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

    My own issue with BW is Excadrill, but that wasn't a topic so I'll leave it be. The first two seem more like an attempt to quickly erase a "strategy" you see in one out of a thousand games anyway, and they're nowhere as prominent in BW as in ORAS for several reasons.

    For a quick recap, I would probably vote no, no, no (maybe yes on Drought + Chloro), no, no. But I would ban Excadrill.
    Joyverse likes this.
  3. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Jul 18, 2010
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    idk why the fuck I was tagged, I barely played BW OU lol

    (13:58:20) The Pokemon 'Excadrill' is banned on tier 'BW2 OU' for the following reasons: Pokemon Excadrill is banned.

    If we want to do any new set of bans, we should just follow the smogon BW OU meta. I really don't think BW2 OU needs any retouching, whether Sun is broken is pretty much just an arbitrary choice of how much of the weather game you want to play, similar to the Drizzle + Swim ban, or a potential "no perma weather except shitty hail" ban. It's something that's been argued to death here and on Smogon and the outcome is generally just people saying what they'd prefer unless something is exceptionally broken (Kingdra, Kabu, arguably Ludicolo, Excadrill). It's unfortunate that we ended up with a 40-30-30 split and had to spend half of the generation without anything happening and ended up just going with a shitty compromise that pleased the minorities, but going back and altering the meta seems unneeded. Especially the Magic Guard and Garchomp suspects, which were generally considered okay (reun got a smogon suspect, Garchomp got banned and unbanned here) by most of the playerbase at the time.

    If we end up in a situation where all of the tour players want to use smogon's BW OU, then we might just adopt the ladder as well, but that's the only situation I see PO going back to change BW OU sans clausing things.
    Joyverse likes this.
  4. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Jun 24, 2010
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    I'm in the same boat as devo, only really played OU for the drizzle and drizzle+swift swim suspects(and before lower tiers existed) and to have legitimacy in arguing for Kyurem-B getting unbanned. Other than that I don't have nearly as much experience in the tier as others have.

    I also have about the same sentiments as devo has. Fifth gen was unfortunate because of weather being permanent, which created a bottleneck in terms of what pokemon could realistically be run. Let alone be viable in the first place. If we were to revisit the gen, the only real big change that everyone may agree on is banning all weather, as that would change the meta game in a big way.

    Swagger is exactly the same as this gen but as three Kings said it doesn't come up nearly as often. It's probably the one thing most people revisiting the tier would be okay with banning. If only because it throws certain games to coin flips even more than the game itself does with crits, paralysis, misses and other things.

    Otherwise everything else is fine or never got a majority to be banned. And at this point I don't see many people rallying to ban anything.
    Joyverse likes this.
  5. Annoying Orange

    Annoying Orange sweet creature Server Moderator Social Media Rep Server Moderator Social Media Rep

    Sep 29, 2010
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    PO Trainer Name:
    Annoying Orange
    I'm a little bit triggered but honestly, weather speed boosts have never been an issue to face for me, nor has baton pass.
    I think every test that got done and was final prior to new gens being released should stay as they are because they've honestly had enough time to finalize that way.
  6. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Jun 13, 2012
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    There's no way actual suspects are happening, js. At best swagger could just get banned at someone's discretion and maybe BP could get discussed in tiering policy or something.
  7. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

    Dec 25, 2011
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    lmao your list of prominent bw players is hilarious

    it's probably interesting to note that this happened during pocl: http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/34465/#post-474416. i imagine this is the precedent for upcoming powc's / pocl's, which is the only time bw ou is relevant here.