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[HGSS] Hail in HGSS NU

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by ThriceElite, Nov 6, 2016.

Moderators: Isa, sulcata
  1. ThriceElite

    ThriceElite New Member

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    Hello, I've come here to start a discussion about a controversial topic in HGSS NU. Namely, hail, along with the boost it gives to Ice Body Walrein.

    I do not have much experience in HGSS NU (unfortunately, there aren't many HGSS NU players here), however, with the (admittedly low) experience that I have, and because the HGSS NU players over on Smogon have banned Hail over there on their sim (iirc around 2015 or so), I think it's at least worth discussing Hail to see if it may be suspectworthy.

    Tagging the only experienced HGSS NU player I know off the top of my head (not many players here who really have HGSS NU as their main tier D:)

    @HSOWA

    And uh, I dunno who else. Elmo maybe? I dunno

    Anyways, yeah let's talk about hail.
     
  2. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    @Xdevo your opinion is being called upon.

    If you're stalking the forums, @The Real Elmo, you're the one who mained this after DA(I think? Memory is horrid). A bit more than "sub magneton beats it" woild be nice though lol.

    I'll post a serious opinion when I have time to. Probably tomorrow sometime. Hail can be annoying.
     
  3. HSOWA

    HSOWA Nya~ Server Moderator Server Moderator

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    I definitely think Hail/Snover should be at least suspected. If Walrein sets a sub against you, it's annoying as fuck, since it will just heal off the damage in two turns. Taunting it doesn't do much as Blizzard (or Surf) will still do major damage, and all Hail teams run a spinner or Nidoqueen, so Toxic Spikes is useless.

    However, it's not unbeatable. Protect and Substitute only have 16 PP each, so you could stall it out, though unreliable. Stuff like SubPunch Poliwrath can also annoy it (beware of Super Fang), however I think it should be at least suspected

    Speaking of weather, Brightpowder Cacturne in Sandstorm is also annoying as fuck
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
  4. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    There are plenty of things that can stop Hail teams in NU. Encore, Taunt, phazing moves + hazards, using your own Ice-types (especially SubJynx), and things like SubMagneton are fairly effective counters to common hail threats. Walrein also only has 32 pp with which to stall, and depending on the set has things it literally cannot touch.

    It's impossible to "counter" an entire team at once, and I don't see why we need to go back to a metagame from 6 years ago to fix something now.
    If we want to clause out uncompetitive things like brightpowder or confusion moves (ie things that have no competitive use), I wouldn't be against it, but I don't really see the need to now.
     
  5. ThriceElite

    ThriceElite New Member

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    Well iirc Professor Oak said we may very well get a surge in the userbase because of Sun/Moon's impending release, and some of those players might very well want to try old tiers. It's in our best interest to make sure our tiers, even our old ones, are in the best shape they can possibly be in. Iirc, part of the reason HSOWA came back was because Sun/Moon was coming out.

    I think having some discussion regarding old tiers would be productive. It'd help counteract some of this unfortunate sense of... decay I sense around this place.
     
  6. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    HGSS NU wasn't even "our" tier. All of the suspecting was done via Project NU, and hail didn't make the cut - repeatedly. Even if we got a huge popularity boost from SM, HGSS NU would be far (very, very, very, very, very far) from the thing to actually gain a playerbase from it.

    Changing the tier at this point is more likely to annoy people that did play the tier at the time (and would therefore have to change any old teams) than to actually attract any new players.
     
  7. ThriceElite

    ThriceElite New Member

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    One of the main reasons why I started this topic was due to server tournaments. These days, it's easy to jump into a tier by just joining a tour, loading a server-provided team, and playing. This has obvious potential for boosting the popularity and exposure of a tier.

    Even if hail wasn't controversial now, the fact that players over on Smogon who played it regularly found it controversial enough to ban over (and the ban was relatively recent, iirc) that makes me think it is at least worth discussing here, and possibly even suspecting as well.

    Basically, part of the reasons I started this topic was due to the potential of autoteams. I think we should be on the same page as to how we should handle hail, so that if we submit HGSS NU autoteams for server tournaments, we can attract new players to the tier. We just need to decide how hail fits into our HGSS NU ruleset.
     
  8. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Smogon banned it from tournaments and it had very close to no documentation or input from a lot of the players that played DP NU at the time. I'm not really concerned with what smogon does to a metagame 5 years after the fact when they already had the opportunity and passed on it. If there were strong arguments, then they can be brought up in this thread, but I've yet to see any.

    Server tours are borderline irrelevant when it comes to how balanced a metagame actually is. This is especially true when everyone is running one of a few auto-teams with the same weaknesses (like when people copied the triple fire and triple electric teams in 2009 and lost to Ninetales and Nidoqueen respectively).

    I'm not going to stonewall all discussion, but I'm going to say there is no where near enough people that play DPP NU to actually have an honest discussion. When the discussion was had (back when DPP NU had an actual playerbase) Hail wasn't brought up for suspect during the suspect testing, and Walrein was never considered as a broken force in NU either. Weather was pretty much only brought up when it was hax issues (Sand Veil and Snow Cloak) or attached to something with absurdly good stats like Regirock.
     
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  9. ThriceElite

    ThriceElite New Member

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    Can we get rid of Brightpowder? It's uncompetitive and there seems to be a general support, or at least lack of opposition, to getting rid of it.
     
Moderators: Isa, sulcata