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[Metagame] SM OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 7 Discussion' started by Draciel, Nov 18, 2016.

Moderators: Finchinator, gengar17, sulcata
  1. Draciel

    Draciel Admin / Tier Overlord Server Owner Tour Director Admin / Tier Overlord Server Owner Tour Director

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    This thread is for discussing potential suspects, metagame trends and just a general place of dicussion for the SM OU tier.

    SM OU Banlist:
    Banned Pokemon
    : Arceus (All forms), Aegislash, Blaziken, Darkrai, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-D, Deoxys-N, Deoxys-S, Dialga, Giratina, Giratina-O, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Landorus-I, Lugia, Lunala, Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Shaymin-S, Solgaleo, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zekrom

    Banned Items: Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Lucarionite, Salamencite
    Banned Abilities: Shadow Tag
    Banned Moves: Baton Pass

    Previously banned mons starting in SM OU: Greninja, Hoopa-U, Genesect.
    Previously banned items starting in SM OU: Soul Dew

    Mega stones unreleased in SM and hence can't be used: Abomasite, Aggronite, Altarianite, Ampharosite, Audinite, Banettite, Beedrillite, Blazikenite, Cameruptite, Diancite, Galladite, Gardevoirite, Heracronite, Houndoomite, Latiasite, Latiosite, Lopunnite, Manectite, Mawilite, Medichamite,Mewtwonite, Pidgeotite, Sceptilite, Steelixite, Swampertite, Tyranitarite.

    Clauses: Sleep Clause, Species Clause, Self-KO Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Moody Clause, Confusion & Attract Clause, Hax Item Clause.

    Discussing possible suspects is encouraged, but please provide valid and smart reasoning. Trolling isn't allowed and will result in an infraction.

    Enjoy!
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
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  2. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I'm gonna go more in depth after when I have time but I just wanna say that Pheromosa is amazing lol. But/Fighting/Ice/Poison is walled by nothing except by Aegislash. It also has the highest speed stay in OU iirc, and has great offensed in 137. It's defesnses are not existent but it still is a crazy powerhouse that I feel will be top tier.

    Also if u pair this thing with Tapu Lele, then priority can even touch this thing lol.

    Will edit my post with other mons after but so far Mega Kanga, Tapu Koko, Kartana, Zygarde Complete, Minior and Toxapex all seem really interesting as well.

    Edit: Also, is Solgaleo and Lunala starting in OU?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  3. Joyverse

    Joyverse Buon Giorno! Forum Moderator Articles Leader Forum Moderator Articles Leader

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    No, Solgaleo and Lunala aren't. They are both in Ubers. Check the OP lol!
    Sorry for the short post, I'll post more in-depth stuff later on here!
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  4. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    EDIT: Woops, wrong thread!

    I plan on playing some SuMoOU soon, and learning what does and doesn't suck. :3
     
  5. Joyverse

    Joyverse Buon Giorno! Forum Moderator Articles Leader Forum Moderator Articles Leader

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    C/Pd from Metagame Policy to get community input on this. Have fun guys!

    I agree with Finch here, I have been trying out the new mons on PS and it is in fact a pretty unpleasant presence. It does counter stuff like Pheromosa, Nihilego, Kartana (to an extent) and stuff like Tapu Bulu as well but like said above: Shadow Ball/Sneak+Shield is just too much at times. Even with stuff like Tapu Lele's Shadow Ball and Kartana's Night Slash around, it's just hard to work around. I am going to appreciate the shortcut very much if we quickban it. Celesteela is the only Pokemon I think of that actually check it pretty nice as it has Flamethrower+Leech Seed (Very few steels downright beat it, namely Heatran with Taunt and Magnezone, however mag can't come in on a flamethrower.. Nvm we were talking Aegislash but this is fact and should be kept in mind).

    Out of the four. I don't think Tapu Koko isn't that much broken in comparison to Greninja or Genesect for that matter. It is going to be an S-Ranker in OU for sure though, thanks to its utility in Electric Surge and solid mixed offenses but will it worth of an upcoming suspect. This, I am not sure of.

    Pheromosa is a beast. Pheromosa IS A BEAST! This is the pokemon that is the reason for Aegislash and Toxapex being. Mind you, Toxapex is a pretty great Bulky Water type. But with only 2 real ways of counterplay it is becoming a very toxic presence imo. Yeah priority moves are pretty against it but this is where Tapu Lele comes into play. Tapu Lele is one of the best Pokemon to fit in a team that is weak to Priority (it's utility in HO is worth mentioning). That aside, with a kill down under its belt, it is more likely to be gaining a Speed Boost and that's just too much.

    Tapu Bulu is pretty strong but it is checked well by Celesteela, Skarmory, and hey to an extent it's also checked by Toxapex. I am more or less concerned by Kartana as the broken offensive grass mon rn over Tapu Bulu really.

    IDK if we should consider it broken. (I am not sure here, help!). But Tapu Lele's utility in nullifying priority hits is extremely valuable on several teams. Also it can catch Aegi on the switch with a Shadow Ball off its solid 130 Special Attack but that's just one of the things. Unlike Tapu Koko whose Physical side isn't worth looking at, Tapu Lele's special movepool with it's Special Attack is almost all it needs to stand out but it still manageable as many of the Steel types check to varying degrees. Toxapex even with it's weakness to Psychic is still going to check it and potentially force it if has a Poison move on it.

    Another Pokemon I'd like to put under the radar is Xurkitree. Oak was right about it, but it works differently from how Oak mentioned it before. Generally it is used as a late game sweeper with a Choice Scarf. It can also do scouting early to mid game with Volt Switch. However its true ferocity comes out when all its checks are gone and basically what you get is a Special MoxieCroak laughing at your weakened mons even though it has no face to speak of. It is like the only UB imo that isn't countered by Toxapex. It has its weaknesses but its pros outweighs its cons so we should probably suspect.

    tl;dr Toxapex is a God. Quickban Pheromosa. Quickban or Suspect Kartana and Xurkitree.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  6. La.Melle2402

    La.Melle2402 I'm the bone of my sword

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    LOL Kang in OU, really cool
    also what about Deo-D? What are the reasons why its Ubers again? i think its okay in OU but would like to hear some arguments against it.
     
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  7. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ya I also agree that if Mega Kanga has a chance to drop back, then the Deos should also have a chance to comeback as well due to them being somewhat controversial bans as well.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2016
  8. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I think we should get an ABOOS period of 1 week before any pokemon get banned besides the cover legendaries and other previously uber pokemon like skymin.

    Just to make absolute sure they're not what we want to deal with.
    And using absolutely broken mons is fun and PS' teambuilder is ass so I haven't gotten to test them yet.
     
  9. sulcata

    sulcata cory is #1 bae Tier Leader Server Administrator Tier Leader Server Administrator

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    Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D have both previously shown to be insanely proficient in setting up multiple hazards and overall in crippling opposing teams. If people feel they should be retested later down the road then that's perfectly fine, but I don't believe there's much that changed to make them less viable than in previous gens. As it stands they'd just be a confounding factor in determining whether or not certain offensive pokes are broken, making the initial tiering process far more frustrating and tedious than it should be.

    edit: with regards to mega kangaskhan, parental bond got a relatively significant nerf, so retesting it actually makes sense.
     
  10. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Aegislash is still as ridiculous as it seemed from the start. Surprise surprise. With the presence of King's Shield, a strong Ghost STAB, the shield and blade forms and their convenience, and the overall impact of the defensive typing w/ the bulk of the shield form, Aegislash is not only broken, but it's unhealthy and incredibly restrictive on the growth and development of the new metagame. I think focusing on the fact that it's broken/unhealthy is more important to analyzing how it might slow-down the metagame because those are conventional means of determining that something is banworthy and we never really tier for the sake of restricting things/unrestricting them (or if we do, it ties more directly into a root cause of being unhealthy -- basically, let's look at this like any other Pokemon we would suspect). The counters are really few and far between - Mandibuzz is non-existent, AV Tang works, most dark types don't appreciate flash cannon/sacred sword (but they're usually quicker and can come in on Shadow ball once or twice, so they can be counterplay), and there's not much else that you really have seen much in the early stages (sure, there's more that will become common and the metagame is yet to unravel, but those things aren't exactly the best at countering Aegi either if history proves itself correct). Additionally, the nature of Aegislash in general simply isn't very healthy thanks to King's Shield in conjunction with the form changing ability -- any Pokemon with such a unique typing and solid STAB can abuse this to the extent that it'd be controversial and Aegislash does it incredibly well. All in all considered, Aegislash is the biggest, or at least one of the biggest, threats in the tier and it's certainly banworthy.

    Pheromosa is incredibly overpowering to the extent that you either have 1 of the 2 checks or you probably are losing a Pokemon to it. It is essentially an offensive Deoxys form in terms of Speed and Attacking stats and then it also gets STAB u-turn and enough coverage to get by against everything bar Aegislash, which will find its way out, and Toxapex. Obviously, having such limited counterplay inherently restricts teambuilding and is unhealthy for the tier. On a more direct note, this makes Pheremosa quite broken. I mean, really, it has 137/137/151 offensive stats w/ HJK, U-turn, Focus Blast, and Bug Buzz as legitimately good STABs on both sides of the spectrum and then it gets Ice Beam to hit Lando-T/Gliscor and PJab to hit fairy types (it 2HKOs or OHKOs all of them because Pheromosa is so ridiculously strong). The only thing stopping it from essentially running the tier right now is the fact that Aegislash is one of the few things more common than it and Aegislash walls it to hell and back thanks to its typing and bulk. In addition, Beast Boost makes it essentially incapable of being revenge killed by non-priority when facing offense as, once it gets a kill, nothing outpaces base 151 speed at +1 in terms of choice scarf users or normal revenge killers. Overall, this thing is blatantly broken.

    Landorus is still (probably) too good for OU. I mean I guess this was fairly predictable seeing how strong it is w/ Sheer Force and how it has done in the OU metagame for the past two generations, but there are very few, if any, actual counters to it being used right now while it is overwhelming everything it hits offensively, more or less. There's a very slight degree of 4MSS on the SR (or RP) variants, but that's far from the end of the world considering it still hits a vast majority of things in the tier. I don't know if this is good enough necessarily to go immediately from the tier, but I can't see it staying for incredibly long, to be quite honest, unless some form of legitimate, consistent counterplay pops up beyond just one check/counter you find occasionally here and there (see: random Zapdos/Mandibuzz/SDef Rotom-W). Overall, Landorus is pretty much the epitome of 'broken' by the definition of the word -- there's limited counterplay, it hits very hard to the extent that it overpowers a fair amount traditional pivots/walls (but there aren't many "walls" being used currently, bar the few stall teams here and there, which are noteworthy to an extent), and it makes you either face being vulnerable to it or running one of a few, potentially blatantly inconvenient Pokemon in order to keep it in check.

    Tapu Koko is very strong and potentially overpowering, but it's still a bit early to pass conclusive judgement on it. Electric Terrain, being summoned immediately by the ability Electric Surge, makes it incredibly hard-hitting w/ STAB electric moves and then there's coverage (HP Ice mainly although GK is viable and ofc STAB DGleam is fine, too, but not as common as HP Ice in my observations. Also, Brave Bird hits AV Tang and Mega Venu surprisingly hard off of solid Atk). I have seen it do so well on a consistent basis so far w/ CM, Specs, and LO sets, pretty much, but it's still fairly raw and the defensive counterplay of the metagame that might come into play vs it is pretty much Mega Venu, the occasional AV Tang, and the rare Hippo, which is at least something, so maybe the metagame will adapt well to it in the coming days, but it's definitely something that will be controversial and worth keeping an eye on as time elapses.

    Genesect is, once again, a top tier thread and has potential to be banworthy. I mean it's been the powerhouse, conventionally broken Pokemon of the past two generations, more or less. It has an insane movepool with download and great offensive stats (only held back a bit by base 99 speed thanks to Espeed and solid defensive typing). I thought it might struggle to gain traction initially because everything else around it was quicker, but strong Espeed, being a fairy resist w/ 'decent' (not glass cannon level, at least) natural bulk, and having pretty much everything at its disposal ranging from U-turn to mixed breaking coverage, it is just as potent as ever, pretty much. I'm not sure if it's one of the top 2-3 Pokemon in the tier or simply among the top tier of like a dozen Pokemon because it's truly hard to gauge specifics at this point, but, outside of Heatran, Mantine, Pelipper, and Toxapex (it doesn't run TBolt 90% of the time @ last 3), there aren't many counters to it at all, but there are a few situational checks such as Aegislash and various physical walls can potentially check the banded variant, I suppose. With that said, it is versatile and can really screw a team over in the long haul or devastate a team in the short-term depending on the match-up and Genesect variant. I reckon that those who are unsure about Genesect's strength in the current metagame will find it to be as I describe it above moreso when balance and bulky variants develop in the metagame as I've been using more bulky teams throughout the past day than the average player and I've truly noticed the devestating nature of Genesect as a Pokemon in the metagame as a byproduct of this and observing others counterplay to it when using non-HO teams. With that said though, Genesect isn't even one-dimensional in terms of effectiveness -- it can do work against offense w/ Espeed or a free turn/pivot if played well, but that's cutting into more specifics and I'll avoid that for the time being. Overall, my point is that Genesect is very good and everyone should keep an eye on it.

    Celesteela, Toxapex, and Mantine are three new or newly buffed Pokemon that are playing a significant defensive role in the metagame that are worth noting. Not because of being banworthy - no, not at all. They're noteworthy because they're all so good right now as defensive pivots or blanket checks/counters to a plethora of common Pokemon in the current metagame. Celesteela has a typing like that of Skarmory, but it provides an actual offensive presence (HSlam, Flame, EQ, etc.), Beast Boost for SDef if it happens to get a kill, Leech Seed, etc.. Toxapex is the wall that we've all dreamed to have in one way or another over the years - counter to so many things out there ranging from Genesect to Pheromosa to Zard-Y while also having support moves like TSpikes and Haze and Regenerator. Finally, Mantine has been around for many generations, but it finally got Roost (!!!) and a noteworthy buff in overall bulk, making it a nice sponge to many common threats in the tier and a very viable Defog user.

    Mega Venu is probably one of the most convenient Pokemon/megas to use right now. It makes sense due to all of the fairies being added to the metagame, but, more specifically, it functions as a check to Tapu Koko, which there are very few of. Overall, Mega Venu lost steam later in ORAS, but it certainly regained some viability here due to it being an anti-meta pick of some sort that has scaled up in popularity over the first day or so of SM. I expect to see it linger in the spotlight for a while, but potentially die down as some bans on things it might be checking come into play. Only time will tell, though!

    I think this is all I have to say right now in terms of big observations, but I will be back to say more in the near future and I hope everyone is having lots of fun playing of the tier so far! :D
     
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  11. Xdevo

    Xdevo God Bless the President Tier Leader Tour Director Tier Leader Tour Director

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    While I do agree Deo-S deserves that treatment due it pressuring both offensive and defensive teams with various movesets, I really feel Deo-D should be retested due to how common Mega Sableye is on stall and how controversial the original ban was.


    Zygarde Complete forme should probably be banned pretty quickly, it's bulk is pretty absurd and Thousand Arrows means that you can't abuse it's STAB's common immunities either.
     
  12. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    If Mega Sableye happens to be common in SM OU once the tier settles, I am not ruling out the prospect of retesting Deoxys-D, if it seems like the best line of action. With that said, this is something that only time will tell, so we'll have to wait and see. I do think that, for now, it is best that the various forms of Deoxys remain in Ubers.


    This is likely going to happen, so people should play close attention here.
     
  13. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    With the nerfing of Dark Void, do you guys reckon that could be the downfall of Darkrai? I mean, 50% accuracy is far from reliable, and aside from that, it's just not all that impressive a Pokémon. Hits hard, hits fast, sure, but it's still really damn frail, and only has a 'decent' movepool.
     
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  14. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'd just like to say that I've been having some pretty decent success running Wisp Zard X with some hazard removal support. Been pretty good, checks Pheromosa, can deal with Aegislash and Genesect, can handle the tapus besides the water/fairy and otherwise is still the same bulky bastard it was in ORAS. Not to say Phero or Aegislash are any less oppressive, just that Zard X is having the same boon as Venusaur is in a meta filled with steels and fairies.

    Yache 100% Zygarde is also fun to DD with. The joy of LO Pheromosa doing 75% with ice beam then dying as you swap forms and attack is amazing. Probably going to try a fully supported Zygarde team tomorrow.
     
  15. sulcata

    sulcata cory is #1 bae Tier Leader Server Administrator Tier Leader Server Administrator

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    Darkrai would just use Hypnosis instead in singles. Being less reliable at inducing sleep, Darkrai would probably try to sleep Pokemon on the switches it forces. Probably less common as a lead overall (disclaimer: i dont ubers).

    With regards to it being in OU, it still has 135 SpA/125 Spd, the ability to hold an item (i.e. not mega), Nasty Plot, and Hypnosis (unless it got access to an even more accurate move). Maybe it could be, but I kind of doubt it.
     
  16. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    True, Hypnosis is still a thing I forgot about. It'll be a bastard in OU if it does fall, but I'm interested as to whether or not it'll actually overpower the tier now.
     
  17. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    I think Darkrai could be surprisingly mediocre this gen. I mean a million other things would be broken if Hypnosis was a reliable weapon in recent metas, but it's simply not. Gengar, for instance, hasn't been broken by Hypnosis, despite good speed and nearly perfect coverage off of 130 special attack. If Darkrai is broken, it's not because of a 60% accuracy sleep move. That way of thinking is just a refusal to let go of what Darkrai was with an 80% accurate sleep move. But I am not saying it can't be broken because of its 135 Satk/125 speed with access to Nastly Plot. It probably is. However, Hypnosis, even with Bad Dreams as bonus chip damage, is not that good of a move. I don't think it's fair to close the conversation on Darkrai because Hypnosis is 'just as good as Dark Void'. I think there's a chance Darkrai could be manageable in OU, but I could of course be horribly wrong. I think it's worth testing.

    While it's worth nothing that Darkrai is not only faster but a bit bulkier than Gengar, the two are worth comparing to imagine what OU Drai would look like. In past gens Gengar has had 5 types it could safely switch into (now 4). Darkrai has 3 (its relative bulk affords it to switch in on Shadow Balls and Dark Pulses). Gengar has dual STAB which hits nearly all of OU for neutral damage and perfect coverage with Focus Blast added, while Darkrai only has 1 STAB, which gives it difficulty with an abundance of Fairies in SuMo. While it has access to Sludge Bomb, this doesn't cover Magearna, Mega Mawile, or Diancie. Bulletproof Chesnaught and Kommo-o resist Dark Pulse and are unaffected by its coverage moves, Sludge Bomb and Focus Blast (it does not have access to Sludge Wave). Darkrai will struggle with dedicated special walls, although it can beat Pink Blobs with Hypnosis + Focus Blast (or a novelty Taunt or SD set). Gengar dies to just about any priority, but Darkrai could live CB Scizor Bullet Punch at max health after SR.

    My takeaway is that Darkrai would be a faster and fatter, but less versatile Gengar, and have fewer opportunities to switch in, at the cost of the ability to boost. Darkrai's movepool doesn't give it enough coverage so it has 4MSS. Its 3 coverage moves (Ice Beam as third for Bulletproof mons) take up all its slots that could be left for Nasty Plot/Taunt/Sub/Hypnosis. So if it wants to run a boosting sweeper set, it has to accept getting walled by a handful of mons. If it wants to beat special walls with Taunt or Hypnosis, then it's even weaker in terms of coverage.

    Whereas Gengar can threaten most of the meta with 2 moves and beat special walls with subsplit, Darkrai is actually surprisingly limited. 135 special attack isn't that high nowadays, especially with its best STAB at 80 bp. It can't come in on a lot of things, and it can't force switches nearly as well as it used to. Losing its niche in an accurate sleep move hurt it quite a bit I think. It could become a less versatile but more powerful version of Azelf (perhaps a better comparison for SuMo Darkrai - 1 immunity 2 resistances Nasty Plot glass cannon with coverage issues).

    Sure, I think it could very well be broken. The above are reasons I think it could be quite manageable in OU. If certain mons like Magearna rise in usage, it could actually struggle to keep a presence in the tier. It might also be worth waiting for the meta to settle before retesting it to avoid any rash bans.

    The only other thing I want to respond to for now is Landorus, which I think was fairly controversial at the time. My initial reaction was that Mantine would force it to run Rock Slide, which would hurt its diversity and make it even more managable than before. We'd have to see how the meta can hold up to EP/Knock Off/Rock Slide/Sludge Wave. With lots of new walls being weak to either Ground or Poison, LandI could actually be more problematic than it was in ORAS because it will have loads of new things to force out.
     
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  18. La.Melle2402

    La.Melle2402 I'm the bone of my sword

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    Darkrai is still a really strong Pokemon and too strong for OU. It has max speed of 383 so it outspeeds everything that isnt scarfed, Mega Alakazam or Mega Lopunny. It has strong stab and access to Nasty Plot. It has also a good movepool, Sludge Wave, Thunder etc. Its pretty fragile but still too powerfull for OU
     
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  19. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE Tasty!

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    Tapu Lele is really really good please let it not go to ubers

    Xurkitree has been underwhelming for me. could be my team construction and everyone trying out broken stuff but it has a lot of trouble coming in against offense

    Kartana is great as well but struggles with coverage. low powered stab doesn't help either

    Pheramosa is just ridiculous. I've been using this dumb CB set but I could see LO or a Z-Move set working really well too. the speed tier combined with the atk and a high powered stab in hjk might be too much.

    also a Darkrai test would be rly cool considering how many fairies are flying around
     
  20. Joyverse

    Joyverse Buon Giorno! Forum Moderator Articles Leader Forum Moderator Articles Leader

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    Kartana's problem is that it lacks a very strong Steel STAB. I often find myself using Leaf Blade with Fight/Dark/Psych coverage instead of having to run 2 STABs.
    TG+TBolt GHavoc is all that Tree needs to bop even Chansey. Might wanna suspect that!
     
  21. Annoying Orange

    Annoying Orange I'm wild. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I honestly haven't had a problem with Pheromosa, but I can see how it can be a problem.

    Aegislash still seems broken this gen. It's typing/coverage along with kings sheild is just too nice.

    Zygarde quickban here too please. but I think it's gonna make an amazing pdon switch in.

    Buzzwole is a physical tank & can hit like a truck. It's honestly a bit scary.

    For deoxys, I'd personally want speed in OU at most. deo-d I'm a bit indecisive over.

    Keep kanga in ou for a bit to see how it goes, suspect it if it's still too much.

    keep darkrai banned.

    genesect and landorus still hit very hard so I'm also a bit indecisive with them.

    imo ban protean greninja
     
  22. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Sylar / Lameflame
    I have not yet had the time to substantively test all of the new Pokemon and mechanics involved in SM OU (like most of the Z-moves to this point), but I thought I'd drop my two cents in on what I have so far.

    Just as a general statement about the metagame right now, it's a little discouraging to hear how some players are approaching the new pokemon, new mechanics and unbans for Sun & Moon. If you let your preconceived notions of what is "broken", "overpowered" or *vaguely subjective buzzword* affect the way you build, battle and adapt to a tier then I have to say that's a very limiting perspective to have. Pokemon are only broken, unhealthy or over-centralizing given the metagame that they're currently in. Decisions should be made about how certain pokemon are performing at this moment, not how they are projected to perform after a series of hypothetical bans or policy decisions. The metagame is in its infancy at the moment and is in no way stable, and the premature knee-jerking I have had to read and listen to (not really here) has been somewhat ridiculous. Nonetheless I was very pleased with the timing and handling of the Zygarde-Complete decision (on PS) and I'm confident that our TLs, players and anyone who has a say in tiering policy will take a more measured approach to balancing this tier instead of a reactionary one.
    --------------
    Aegislash: Aegislash isn't "broken". Maybe that's not a popular opinion to have to defend at the moment but I guess people forgot that it wasn't banned because of its offensive capabilities nor the "50/50s". Rather, it was banned because of it's incredible role compression and the seismic effect it has on the viability of so many otherwise useful psychic, fairy, flying and fighting type pokemon and their mandatory coverage, which heavily over-centralized the tier. Of course there are situations where you may not be able to outplay Aegi without predicting correctly, but in way more cases than not I feel this is not only reasonable but also a desirable part of a competitive metagame. Many players have been complaining that they're getting 50/50s wrong or "yeah this wouldn't happen if this busted mon was gone", when in actuality I have had real reasons behind the plays I made using & opposing Aegislash, I didn't flip a coin and hope it was heads. This isn't a "git gud" argument by any means, and you'll never get every play right in this game, but I really feel that some players want Aegislash banned for all the wrong reasons and that a truly enjoyable metagame isn't one where plays are always as cut and dry as "switch Amoonguss into Breloom, rinse repeat".

    That being said, as I already stated Aegislash is a highly restrictive Pokemon when it comes to the long term development of the metagame. What I will say is that at this moment, the meta is incredibly offensive in nature and the number of threats Aegislash is being used to check should be looked at before Aegislash itself goes. The only thing worse than "broken checking broken" is not being able to actually check "broken" at all, if you get what I mean. Maybe after Pheromosa is suspected and/or banned, we'll have a slightly better idea of what a Sun & Moon Aegislash-metagame looks like.

    Pheromosa: I don't think there's one specific quality that this thing possesses that pushes it over the edge, but regardless, it's absolutely too good for any long term stay in the OU tier. Maybe if it were a Mega (no LO, takes up mega slot, etc.), maybe if it couldn't go mixed, maybe if it had a different ability, more restricted coverage, etc., you could make the argument that it had enough flaws between that and its crap defenses to stick around. However none of the flaws that it would need to have to legitimately remain OU for very long actually exist, and so what you're left with is a pokemon that after 1-2 turns is incredibly difficult to stop. The fact that it is supported so well by Tapu Lele and trappers (mostly Pursuit) is really just the icing on what is already a very broken pokemon in and of itself. You can't hope to wear it down with any chip damage because it's got a powerful un-invested LO Ice Beam, and you can't always be assured to grab momentum against it by sending out the 1-2 actual counters it possesses because it's got a fast and powerful STAB U-turn to nullify most predicted counterplay. I will say that it isn't so good that it makes the tier unplayable (see: Zygarde-Complete, Mega Salamence, etc.), but it just has too many options to ever reasonably be kept in check without dedicating a lot of your team to doing just that alone.

    Landorus: If it was at all controversial in ORAS, it should not be anymore. I'm not sure you can look at the current metagame compared to ORAS and reasonably argue that Landorus hasn't gotten better given what we're seeing. It has a very favorable +speed tier at the moment and between EP/Sludge Wave & Focus Miss you're hitting a vast majority of the tier for fantastic damage. Maybe Celesteela poses some issues for it but that's really a drop in the bucket considering how well it handles the many new fairy types, Aegislash, Toxapex, slower UBs, etc. I do think it had some 4MSS issues in the past and you really had to choose what type of playstyle it would be effective against (RP wasn't great vs stall, etc.), but I think now it can hit what it needs to hit without much constraint and after other higher-priority things are looked into, this should be one of the first to get a suspect.

    Toxapex: Where was this thing in ORAS? At first glance you might not be impressed by its average HP stat, meager offensive capabilities, poor speed and the burn nerf but in practice this is one of the best walls this generation could have asked for. Whether it does its job too well to be suspect worthy is really not for me to say at this moment as the meta is still highly offensive and I distinctly remember people saying Mega Bro was too good at the beginning of ORAS before it turned out to be fine. It checks so many things well with realistically 1-2 main EV spreads and one common set, plus or minus one interchangeable moveslot and Lefties vs Rocky Helmet. Baneful Bunker, aka Protect+Poison really goes a long way in getting that extra bit of chip off for 1-2 more turns to help this thing wear down what it's supposed to beat, and Lefties+Recover+Regenerator lets you fully leverage its survivability to sponge hits over the course of a battle. I expect this to be a top tier defensive presence for quite some time in OU.

    Celesteela: Similar to Toxapex, I really feel that the meta needed and still needs a less-passive Skarmory, something that actually has offensive presence and versatility in exchange for reliable recovery in Roost. It can be tailor made to check a ton of offensive threats depending on what your team needs, and Beast Boost only serves to enhance whatever role you need it to play if you can manage to get a kill mid-late game as needed. I don't see this as broken, but rather just incredibly good and soon to get better if certain things do end up leaving the tier. Leech Seed does help it more than you'd realize if you haven't yet tried that in any of its sets.

    Minior: People are really sleeping on this, which at the moment seems somewhat understandable but it is one of the best Shell Smashers we have ever seen. It has solid offenses & movepool to start with and its speed tier lets it outspeed a ton of otherwise-decent checks to it at +2. I've seen people pair this with Tapu Lele to even further limit its counterplay although I wouldn't say it's as common as Lele+Phero nor as potent, just something to keep in mind. It does have some reliable checks at the moment (especially Celesteela) but like most set-up sweepers, you aren't going to pull this out until those checks are weakened/removed, at which point this is quite difficult to stop. I think when the meta stabilizes a bit more this will become a lot more noteworthy.
    ----------

    As a few final thoughts, I don't want this post to go on forever but Greninja (and Ash-Ninja which is underwhelming), Genesect and Hoopa are currently playing in a metagame that is, in my opinion (and I really do think objectively) a lot more hostile to them than what they remember. Without going into way more detail, Greninja is no longer one of the fastest pokemon in the tier (at the moment), Genesect gained a solid number of checks and Hoopa is really suffering from U-turn spam and faster Pokemon taking advantage of it (though it still does well against fatter teams, as per usual). I'm not saying that they might not eventually be suspect worthy, that things won't shift in their favor over time or that they aren't currently pulling their weight on teams. Rather, between the fact that there are many more pressing matters to look into at the moment in addition to how early it is to render judgments about their common sets & effectiveness, we really should leave these alone for the time being.
     
  23. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ok so will add to the current discussion given the more time I had to adjust with the SuMo OU meta on PS mainly. First, I would like to give my opinions on the current "potentially banworthy" mons, then I would also like to talk about current meta trends I have been seeing in general.

    [​IMG]

    Opinion: Quickban

    I personally feel that Perfect Zygarde is the most broken element to the metagame as of know thanks to its titanic 216 HP stat that it gains which grants it many opportunities to sustain powerful hits and setup with either Dragon Dance or Coil. I personally been running the Specially Defensive RestTalk Coil set which is amazing as acting as a bulky setup sweeper and getting regular Zygarde to transform to 100% form is not that hard as well due to the vanilla form occupying impressive bulk already. The other reason why Perfect Zygarde is so busted imo is the fact that it gains a practically zero drawback STAB move in Thousand Arrows which now allows mono Ground STAB sets to not get walled by Flying/Levitate mons. This is important as regular check to Zygarde such as Skarmory and Landorus-T can no longer wall Zygarde due to it pertaining such a risk-free move that compliments its mono attacking setup sets perfectly. The only real answers I was able to cultivate for this monster is really only either Bulk Up/Whirlwhind Tapu Bulu, and Calm Mind Unaware Clefable. Every other defensive wall either gets demolished by boosted Thousand Arrows, or gets PP stalled by RestTalk shenanigans. This form is really above any single threat in the metagame as of know and should honestly be banned/nerfed in someway. I would either suggest we ban Power Contruct or Thousand Arrows ( I would prefer the former however).

    [​IMG]

    Opinion: Quickban

    I have been using Pheromosa on Hyper Offense and Bulky Offense VolTurn teams and its truly the best wallbreaker the meta has right now. Bug/Fighting STABs is truly amazing coupled with either Ice and Poison coverage which limits the amount of switchins this pokemon really has. It also has the highest Speed bracket in the tier in 151 (without factoring in Choice Scarf threats) and it also pertains 137 offenses and it can hold an item which really pushes this thing over the edge for me. Beast Boost only helps it even further as it can accumulate boosts to either its Special Attack or Attack if you EV it properly when it nets a KO (which is not hard at all for this thing). Yes it does pertain counters in Aegislash and Toxapex mainly, but Pheromosa also has access to U-Turn and can just pivot away from these walls and go into trappers such as Bisharp and Dugtrio to eliminate these counters. (that is why Phero + Duggy + Bisharp is so good right now). I would not mind a quickban for this thing at all as of know.

    [​IMG]

    Opinion: Suspect it later down the line

    An unpopular opinion but I also agree that Aegislash is a sort of "necessary evil" to the metagame as of know depending on how we should limit our banning process. Banning Aegislash right now will open up a huge can or worms and make so many new threats unbearable imo such as Kartana, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Lele, Magearna, and Buzzhole mainly. I won't deny that yes Aegislash can be put on any team really and it makes that team better in certain scenarios depending on which set it runs, but to me the abundance of Aegislash we are seeing right now has to do more with the presence of Pheromosa mainly more than the actual attributes of the mon itself. I definitely feel its suspectworthy, but I will just like to wait a bit more and let the meta develop on dealing with the slew of other threats before we ban the mon that is basically gluing the tier as whole atm. This may be seen as "broken should not check broken", but we are put in a place in SuMo OU such that Aegislash is really keeping a lot of threats (imo near 10 really) in check, and we should decide if we would want to ban ~8-10 mons if we can keep them if we keep Aegislash. I say we just tough it out for just a tad bit longer on this one.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Greninja: Maybe suspect it in ~2 months
    Landorus: Suspect it right after we finish out quickbans

    I put these two together since they kinda function the same way being powerful wallbreakers (with Ninja being more fast, but Lando being more powerful). Greninja is pretty strong atm and can be rightfully deemed banworhty by many, but Sun and Moon has blessed us with two new checks to the water frog in Toxapec and Celesteela. The fact that these two mons are not only common, but very good in there own rights as well makes Greninja kinda harder to pull off more effectively when compared to ORAS ( I affirmed this hypothesis when playtesting as well). Other faster threats such as Tapu Koko and Pheromosa also check it offensively and makes it harder for it to not be revenge killed. Landorus-I on the other hand really kinda does the same thing it does in ORAS but has the added benefit of losing a good counter to it in Mega Latias. Now Landorus-I can still 2HKO or even OHKO the meta with its great coverage that are all boosted by Sheer Force. It kinda has 4MSS, but it can still customize what it chooses to run based on your team. It is not as volatile to warrant a quckban imo, but I feel it should definitely be the first thing on the chopping block after we finish initial tiering.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    All: Do not ban now, but keep on the radar for later

    I feel that these threats all have the possibility to become a nuisance when the meta stabilizes a bit more, but right now it is kinda hard to comment on them with all the craziness that is occurring right now.

    Will discuss trends when I gain time later.
     
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  24. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    So I've been watching some people play, and played some mons myself the last two or three days (let's see how long that lasts!). Anyway it's only been like 4 days, and well everyone right now is somewhat enamored with the new things, and trying out the broken things, that I haven't seen as many build teams that use mons that were the OU Staples last gen outside maybe a couple of Pokemon (Landy-T, Ferro, Zard-X, etc.), so it's kind of hard to gauge what's really outstanding, and what's somewhat overhyped right now, however there are a few key things that are obvious right now.

    Pheromosa - Is a literal stupid thing in the SuMo OU right now. Combined with STAB HJK and U-Turn and a pretty strong Ice Beam so things like Landorus-T isn't even really a check to it. And it gets Poison Jab so it has a way to deal with any Fairies, yeah this thing is basically over the top right now and forcing people in general to run fast teams or have good priority or you get swept by it. But, yeah it's stupid with main counters being Aegislash and Toxpaex, but you can also find some checks in a few fires like Chandelure or Volcarona (chandy struggles, but Volcarona as always isn't bad).


    Aegislash - Is taking advantage of the need for speed, because nothing right now really likes to switch into its STAB shadow ball, and as it is King's Shield does make it hard to get some hits in that aren't mediocre. But, I think what might make it currently overwhelming is teams being used really might not want the active mon to take a Shadow Ball to the face, but also can't risk their active dying if it's the case of needing it to check something later. It's kind of like last gen where it's tough to wear down a mon that can maintain both an offensive and defensive presence against many threats, and can quite easily make the game harder for you to win because you make a choice on what you might be willing to lose to it, if need be. I don't know if it'll still be as good once a few of the "Powerhouses" like Pheromosa, Greninja, etc. are gone (if they do get banned), but it still is pretty damn strong and effective.

    Greninja - Protean is still the better ability to roll with, but if it can get a kill then the Battle Bond isn't THAT bad, just Protean's ability generally outclasses it out of the gate. However, Greninja is still a damn fucking strong Pokemon to play against just due to how great it's speed tier is and the ability to get STAB on whatever it wants. There doesn't seem like enough changed from last generation's Mons that make Greninja more managable now, and there's only a small handful of things that Alola gives us that can be "treated" as an answer to Greninja in the long run also broken or arguably broken like Pheromosa being faster, Tapu Koko who I'll elaborate on next para, Toxapex. Don't think enough has changed that Greninja should be free for a long run.

    Tapu Koko - is a pretty insane powerhouse right now in the early goings. I didn't expect 95 base special attack to cut it, but with the terrain up, it's more than capable of breaking through a lot of general Pokemon, and with it's high speed stat is can Volt out of something if it doesn't want to take a hit but still inflict a lot of damage to a target. It's movepool is limited (thank gamefreak!), but it has enough options to do a lot against common things. Finch already listed them, so I won't go into it more, but this thing once the dust settles is honestly probably gonna be borderline broken since it's an offensive Elec/Fairy that doesn't have to get walled by stuff like Mega Venu or Amoonguss because it has access to something like Brave Bird which can do a ton of damage at the cost of suiciding.

    Not a lot to really offer right now, except some Pokemon are really cool to use for now, but will lose their luster when more and more mainstreams from last gen move their way into people's teams. However the 4 above are basically dominating right now just because of how good they are in general, and as such they'd probably be the best starting points. I'd say more on genesect from using it, but I'd rather actually see it play out without the advantage of having the meta right now be hit fast, kill fast as possible, which leaves it the ability to take advantage of download boosts and scoring easy KOs on things with mediocre defenses. It's probably ranked more towards lower on the immediate looks than those 4 (well more like 3, Pheromosa, Gren, Aegislash being way too good for the tier initially, Tapu likely having to wait a bit to let things adjust possibly to it).

    Also on a Darkrai re-test, get the broken shits out first before even bringing that up. There's a lot of initial work that needs to be done before even considering a test of it. So get that worked out first so you can get to the test faster if you really want to try Darkrai in SuMo OU.
     
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  25. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Don't feel like making a detailed post at the moment, however Pheromosa and Zygarde complete are the definite targets we'll want to quick ban. Core Enforcer even gives it a solid non-Outrage choice which only boosts its potency in the tier. Even with all the fairies flying around.

    Also can we ban Power Construct and not Zygarde itself when the time comes? For obvious reasons?
     
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  26. Joyverse

    Joyverse Buon Giorno! Forum Moderator Articles Leader Forum Moderator Articles Leader

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    I think it's the best place to ask(?)
    I am attempting to build a SM OU team. I have decided all my pokemon but I don't think the EVs on one of my pokemon's spread will help. Instead of spdef. I am planning to go mixed wall on Celesteela. Any ideas?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2016
  27. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'm not so sure Celesteela has enough bulk to go mixed wall. Sure, 97/103/101 isn't exactly bad, but unlike Mew and similar, it doesn't get Will-o-Wisp or anything to help its bulk, or even decent recovery. Plus, its common weaknesses, Fire and Electric, are common on both physical and special sides of the spectrum, meaning it'll be pressured no matter what it tries.

    Perhaps just a simple SubSeeding thing, with Air Slash to scare Grass-types away, and Protect for more stalling? It can be a baby Skymin, if you will.
     
  28. Haaku

    Haaku New Member

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    why in the world can I use zygarde-complete in the OU metagame? that should have been insta-banned along with solgaleo and lunala. it's insulting to the metagame that it's actually usable right now. don't think i need to say why. please, someone tell me why this pokemon has not been quickbanned. the meta cannot progress with zygarde-complete available.

    aegislash is much less obvious but it absolutely has no place in OU. the only reason it's not banned apparently is that "it's broken, but makes other pokemon broken too if banned!" which is ridiculous. ban aegislash. it's broken, simply put.

    im much more laid back with pheromosa and others but I feel like pheromosa should get banned, lando definitely gets banned, genesect wait, and the tapus should all we put on wait.

    also, lets stop acting like darkrai is not broken please.
     
  29. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Things aren't getting banned as actively here because we don't have official access to SuMo OU on the PO server yet. Once we do, things will probably start getting banned. At least that's my take on it. Someone more important may see things entirely different.
     
  30. SolarPichu

    SolarPichu New Member

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    Do we know when usage statistics will be available for Sun and Moon?
     
  31. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike Tier Leader Tour Director Tier Leader Tour Director

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    SuMo isn't even out yet on PO
     
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  32. EvilDingoRobot

    EvilDingoRobot HELLOOOOOOOO

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    there are usage stats on pokemon showdown if you wanna use those
     
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  33. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Member

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    [​IMG]
    The baby was nerfed, but this is still insane. The new speed mechanics for megas makes Fake Out not mandatory, expanding Kanga's coverage. Power-Up Punch for set up, Sucker Punch for priority, Stab Return / Frustration and a great choice of moves; Like elemental punchs or Earthquake.
    It's still too much for OU, it deserves Quick Ban.

    [​IMG]
    This guy is incredible, has so many qualities that it gets difficult listed in a few lines.
    Steel / Ghost is an excellent type, maybe the best. 3 immunities and various resistances, combined with Leftovers and high defensive stats make Aegislash an incredibly difficult Pokémon to take down.
    A good part of the layer can not touch it effectively, and can be punished with Pursuit or give a free turn to Substitute.
    Thanks to its Stance Change ability, it can easily enter as a defensive feature, and become an offensive threat in the same turn, the pseudo 720 base stat.
    Extremely versatile, it don't need support and works in many ways on any team.
    The powerful STAB Shadow Ball is spammeable, and its other moves Flash Cannon, Sacred Sword, Toxic, reduced the number of safe inputs to 1; SpDef Gliscor. (Not to mention gimmick sets that are lower options but that defeat their checks / counters HP Ice for Gliscor and Lando, Scarf Head Smash destroys Charizard Y).
    I feel it is not necessary to talk about King's Shield and how this negatively affects the metagame.
    Finally, there is no reason not to use aegislash on any team.
    It's too much for OU, it deserves Quick Ban.

    [​IMG]
    Versatility for varied sets such as Band, Scarf, Rock Polish or AoA gives to Genesect the ability to exert offensive pressure in a variety of ways, STAB U-Turn, Download and enough cover to hit the entire layer with massive damage.
    Even though genesect can not exert all moves at once, the risk of scouting is too high most of the time making it difficult to deal with. And even if you uncover the set, just press U-Turn and switch to a partner.
    Deserves Quick Ban.


    About Greninja (and Ash form), Pheromosa, Tapu Lele, Landorus-I and Hoopa-U, it's still early.

    But...
    [​IMG]
    Blaziken could have an new opportunity (if Kangaskhan can).
    Without being able to use Baton Pass, Blaziken in theory needs Protect and Swords Dance to increase their stats and be destructive. Even if it has coverage like Thunder Punch, Stone Edge, or Earthquake, the risk to verify is not as high as that of other threats in OU.
    SM OU has new Pokémon like Tapu Fini, Toxapex, Marowak-Alola and old known as Mantine and Dragonite able to offer some answer against Blaziken. Honestly, this is more than Charizard X had during all gen VI and Pheromosa has now.
     
  34. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE Tasty!

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    FREE BLAZIKEN
     
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  35. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Can we ban already Genesect and Aegislash? They are threatening the meta to an extent and they need to go.
     
  36. snaga

    snaga .

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    Aegislash is banned

    regarding genesect, you should probably emphasize on why because "threatening the meta to an extent" isn't the best reasoning behind something being quickban worthy, lol

    edit: freeing blaziken sounds cool once the meta settles
     
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  37. Annoying Orange

    Annoying Orange I'm wild. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I agree on the Genesect ban. It can be really hard to switch into especially if you aren't sure of the set yet. It can 2hko lots of switch-ins depending on its boost/investments. It kinda forces you to make reayblly risky predictions often and can force you to run certain pokemon to maybe check it. But the ladder in general is fucked currently thanks to the normal buff while no terrain is up.
     
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