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[Balanced Hackmons] Balanced Hackmons

Discussion in 'Gen 7 Side Metagames' started by Funbot28, Jan 4, 2017.

Moderators: fsk
  1. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Approved by @TraceofLife
    Most of OP stolen from E4 Flint
    [​IMG]

    Banner by @Annoying Orange

    Hello everyone and welcome to the new iteration of the Balanced Hackmons metagame lead by @fsk.

    What is Balanced Hackmons?
    From a technical standpoint, Balanced Hackmons (BH) is a Side Metagame that allows you to use nearly anything possible that you can battle with in a local battle between players, in the most current cartridge. Conceptually, BH is defined as a sandbox tier where one can use Pokemon to their fullest potential with normal restrictions being removed.

    Highlights of BH Mechanics:
    Here is but a sample of the cool things you can do in BH and nowhere else!
    Note: The following is subject to the current banlist
    • Start in Mega, Primal, Alternate, Origin, Heat, Zen, or any other form you choose! No manual evolution, item, ability requirement necessary! Have as many of them as you like on your team!
    • Make use of as many of the same mon on your team! Free yourself from the species clause
    • Add (nearly) any moves of your choice into your moveset!
    • Max out each EV stat! No more 508 EVs restriction!
    • Augment your Mons with your favorite abilities! Magic Bounce, Prankster, Illuminate and everything in between!
    Clauses and Banlist:

    Pokémon:
    [Update 04/22] Groudon-Primal (Normal groudon with Red Orb to transform into Pdon upon sent in the battlefield is allowed.)

    Moves:
    • OHKO Moves
    • Chatter
    • Swagger
    • Assist
    • [Update: 1/8] Crystal-Free Z-moves (ie: Genises Supernova, Extreme Evoboost, etc...)
    Abilities:
    • Wonder Guard
    • Pure / Huge Power
    • Parental Bond
    • Shadow Tag / Arena Trap
    • [Update: 3/30] Moody
    • [Update: 3/30] Innards Out
    • [Update: 3/30] Water Bubble
    Clauses:
    • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team.
    • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned.
    • Evasion Moves Clause: No moves that can increase Evasion are allowed. This does not include abilities or items that may modify Evasion passively such as Sand Veil or Brightpowder
    • [Update 01/24] Comaphaze Clause: No pokemon can have the combination of Comatose + Sleep Talk on their set.
    Resources:
    • Viability Rankings
    • Speed Tiers (yet to come)
    • Role Compendium (yet to come)
    • Sample Teams (yet to come)
    Post new sets, discuss metagame trends and suspect discussion! Welcome to Gen 7 Balanced Hackmons!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2017
  2. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    Ok so I'm gonna get things rolling by basically restating everything from the smogon threads so far in a more condensed form:
    Potential bans as I see it:
    Z-moves - same reasoning as on smogon but they seem to be less broken here (although arguably still broken) due to no EV limit meaning a bulkier tier where one shot moves are going to do less
    Comaphaze - I'm sure everyone knows how aids this is, moving on
    Water bubble - huge power for water moves? Enough said
    Moody - same as in the other thread. Does it really add anything good to the meta?
    Bright powder - I dare someone to argue this is competitive
    Everything other than this seems to be less harmful to the meta so imo can wait for a while.

    Potential unbans:
    Parental bond: got significant nerf - now equivalent to +25% (less than sheer force, less than LO, less than +1 eg download) and breaks sashes. Since the power isn't that impressive I feel like the sash breaking + better chance to added effects are the only things that set it apart from many other abilities
     
  3. fsk

    fsk Kept hacking Tier Leader Server Moderator Tier Leader Server Moderator

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    Confirming that on our ladder
    • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team
    This is not functioning correctly.
    Let me just ask TraceofLife (hey don't die retagging @TraceofLife!!! )to confirm if this is a bug of the ladder or we don't have the clause as starting clause. (If you don't want to face 5 innards out +1 attacker, keep this clause loool)


    As I'm too busy helping with bugs and fixes, no time to have fun playing with u guys yet. 0.0
    I spent 30 min yesterday to peak the ladder using a shit team while not even facing a real hackmons team, so rip our playerbase.


    Also note that Extreme Evoboost is bugged on PO right now, so no one is really spamming that. But soon after the fix we will see :v

    Willdbeast already posted the most broken part of the meta just above: Crystal-Free-Signature Z Moves, Water Bubble, Comatose Sleep Talk Phase.

    Here I will comment on several combos that are proved to be effective in brief:

    Innards Out + High HP pokemon. (This is the fourth Aids tbh, If you ask me what is the next after the above three broken things.)

    Deoxys-A with focus sash + Pyschic Purge or other abilities, forming HO spam. And this makes UB02 Beauty with Twindle Viable.

    Psychic Surge MMY

    Steelworker Katarna + Sunsteel Strike.

    Dazzling /queenly majesty with set up moves.

    Dark Type with Extreme Evoboost 220 base power Power Trip, and its immune to prankster Top-Tur/Encore. Pairing with Sunsteel Strike to hit Fairy type unaware (Sunsteel strike also ignores Unaware here) This can be used by simple Ability and makes it even more good.

    Triage Oblivion Wing, Drain Punch, Leech Life etc has +3 Priority. Somewhat weak to Dazzling/Psychic Surge.

    Water Absorb Fairy Arceus: Ultimate Water bubble counter not fearing Core Enforcer.

    Unaware with Spectral Thief.

    Normal type Set up sweepers, e.g. Arceus Normal Quiver Dance/ Regigigas PHeal Shift Gear Facade/ Z-conversion Zygarde. Blocking Spectral Thief.

    Stakeout on pokemon that has a great potential of scaring opponents away.

    Protean Users, Primal Groudon sets, -Ate Choice Spec sets, Entainment M-Gengar sets, Contrary Users etc proved to be successful last gen and can still work relatively well in the new meta.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
    Funbot28 and willdbeast like this.
  4. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ok will start this off by posting a couple of good sets that I have been using and seeing so far:

    [​IMG]
    Mewtwo-Mega-Y (Mega Mewtwo Y) @ Leppa Berry
    Ability: Unburden
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Extreme Evoboost
    - Stored Power
    - Secret Sword / Moongeist Beam
    - Imprison

    This set is actually so scary and can really become such a nuisance to wall after one turn of setup. For those who do not know, Extreme Evoboost gives +2 in every stat and it only has 1 PP. So I decided to run a Leppa Berry Unburden set with this so that Mega Mewtwo Y gains the extra speed boost from Unburden meaning it can outspeed and block Imposter Chansey from checking it and also allows it to use Evoboost again, boosting up the BP of Stored Power even more. Here are some calcs:

    252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Zygarde: 363-427 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +4 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Stored Power (420 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 360-424 (75.3 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    These are the only two threats that can actually live a hit from this monster. Thankfully, Mega Mewtwo Y is weak to Spectral Theif and you can steal the stat boosts from it, which is why I can see maybe Spectral Theif Baton Pass Sturdinja actually being a good stop to this set if the Mega Mewtwo Y is not carrying Moongeist Beam. Extreme Evoboost is not working how its intended to atm on PO, but when it does I can see this set becoming a huge pain on teambuilding.

    [​IMG]


    Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
    Ability: Fur Coat
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Metal Burst
    - U-turn
    - Shore Up
    - Whirlwind

    This set can literally eat up any physical hit and hit hard back with Metal Burst. Even an Ice Hammer from a Primal Groudon fails to OHKO it and does aorund 70% to it. This is mainly due to the titanic HP stat that Zygarde-C possesses in combination with the defense doubling of Fur Coat.

    If you gusy have any other sets, please share them in this thread!
     
  5. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    Z-moves - same reasoning as on smogon but they seem to be less broken here (although arguably still broken) due to no EV limit meaning a bulkier tier where one shot moves are going to do less
    Comaphaze - I'm sure everyone knows how aids this is, moving on
    Water bubble - huge power for water moves? Enough said
    Moody - same as in the other thread. Does it really add anything good to the meta?
    Bright powder - I dare someone to argue this is competitive
    Everything other than this seems to be less harmful to the meta so imo can wait for a while.

    Extreme Evoboost - I think I got mental scarring from this to the extent I repressed all memory of it.
    Please @TraceofLife just ban it now
    If anyone actually disagrees with this then I'll eat my (metaphorical) hat
     
  6. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike Forum Moderator Tour Director Forum Moderator Tour Director

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    Re: Ability Clause

    yes it's still a thing

    also, Crystal Free Z-Moves are quickbanned from Balanced Hackmons. thanks for your attention!


    not very keen on unbanning parental bond since seismic toss and night shade is a thing.
     
    fsk and Funbot28 like this.
  7. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike Forum Moderator Tour Director Forum Moderator Tour Director

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    Keep parental bond banned
    Even the damage boost of parental bond is nerfed, there is no point to unban it since:
    Not only the old strategy of Seismic Shade Fang or automatic serene grace persists, Parental Bond with Nature's Madness does 75% to anything, and unlike Seismic Shade Fang, the fairy type move has no immunity. The Seismic Shade Fang was one of the major reason that Parental Bond got banned last gen, and this strategy only becomes more effective, so we are not unbanning it.





    Crystal Free Z moves, known on PS! as CFZ's.
    This has two parts, one is the setup move, Extreme Evoboost, which raised every stat of pokemon by 2 stages.

    The truly extreme boost the move Extreme Evoboost introduces has near to no counter. All these moves are just splash-able on almost any Pokemon to be immediately powerful and even unstoppable.

    Yes, people tried to come up with certain specific counters, but they all just failed when facing certain sets. The insane boost in all stats results in not only a powerful Power Trip or Stored Power (together with the moves that ignore unaware, namely moongeist beam and sunsteel strike) that has the potential to reck a lot of unaware walls, but also makes them hard to revenge kill due to the defense stats up.
    One example is enough to illustrate:
    The most solid physical wall?
    252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Power Trip vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Unaware Zygarde: 619-730 (97.3 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
    Dark Resist?
    +4 252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Unaware Arceus-Fairy: 594-700 (134 - 158%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Unaware Yveltal: 350-414 (76.7 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Dark type being immune to prankster topsy-turvy and encore, receiving STAB using Power Trip, are the most common abuser of the boost. There could be many other sets just as effective as this one in terms of breaking walls that is designed to tank the most powerful hit. (Side note: The general difficulty of these sets to imposter-proof is not a valid argument to keep the move unbanned.) From the above, it is obvious that the move Extreme Evoboost should be banned.


    Aside from the set-up move Extreme Evoboost, we now look at the Attacking Crystal Free Z moves.

    Castropika - Electric Physical BP 210
    10k Volts - Electric Special BP 195 + 50% crit
    Stoked Sparksurfer - Electric Special BP 175 + 100% Paralysis
    Pulverizing Pancake - Normal Physical BP 210
    Genesis Supernova - Psychic Special BP 185 + Starts Psychic Terrain
    Sinister Arrow Raid - Ghost Physical BP 180
    Malicious Moonsault -Dark Physical BP 180
    Oceanic Opera - Water Special BP 195
    Soul Stealing Seven Star Strike - Ghost Physical BP 195
    Guardian of Alola - Fairy 75% of current HP

    Attacking Crystal Free Z moves with its sheer power, has little to no counter in the metagame, either. With the common abuser of Deoxys-attack and Mega Mewtwo Y, the general walls in the meta all appears shaky: The 195 BP 10k Volts crits 50% of the time, the 185 BP Genesis Supernova let MMY and Deoxys receive STAB and starts Psychic Terrain, and bullshit of Alola can remove the effectiveness of almost any wall daring to switch in. Wonder if an Assault Vest Psychic-immune/resist would wall against them? Moves such as SSSSS and Catastropika, and even close combat/secret sword aiming at the Physical Side, would successfully get lure-in kills. Literally every moves listed above not only has such a high base power, but also can hit through protect; they have almost no downside, maybe except for the 1PP which can be made up by leppa berry with or without harvest, and in many cases 1PP is just enough.

    In conclusion, CFZs not only makes the metagame unbalanced, but also are commonly known as a no brainer: They require little support of the pokemon, ability or other conditions to be effective, with little to no downside, and can sweep over the specific counters designed to stop them with ease. Therefore, CFZs are banned from the SM Balanced Hackmons.

    Comaphase

    The strategy consists of Ability Comatose, move Sleep Talk and one or several of Dragon Tail/Circle Throw/Whirlwind/Roar (By using Sleep Talk, the negative priority of these moves is completely bypassed, allowing them to be used at +0 priority), on a fast(or scarfed, or both) mon. With up to two Comaphasers enforcing the phasing, the opponent would have almost no choice of action except for manually switching mons, and eventually worn down by the damage of Dragon Tail/Circle Throw or entry hazard that is previously implemented on the side of the phased.

    Although there exists some sort of commonly viable counterplays to this specific strategy, with the correct support Comaphase can still makes the game out of the control of the opponent.

    Powerful Priority Attack, esp. -Ate with Fake out/ Espeed Combo, can damage the phaser and possibly stop the shuffling eventually, while this is blocked by Psychic Terrain Support or countered by a Scarfed Arceus-Steel that can take quite a lot of hits.

    Prankster Defog/Taunt stops the shuffling, but is blocked by Psychic Terrain Support or Dark type, such as Arceus-Dark.

    Scarfed pokemon can outspeed Deoxys-Speed or some of the phasers if the phasers is not scarfed or is scarfed but has lower base speed. But Comaphase team could use Scarf Deoxys-Speed.

    Ghost type and Fairy Type immune to Circle Throw and Dragon Tail respectively, while Magic Bounce Stops Whirlwind and Roar, Soundproof stops Roar. But this is very match-up base, depending on the shuffling moves the phaser brings. In addtion, Gengarite on Gengar can trap and remove some of the Magic Bouncer/Fairy pokemons with Perish Song or Destiny Bond if necessary.

    Magic Guard is immune to the damage from hazards though can still be gradually taken down by Dragon Tail/Circle Throw.

    Imposter can win a speed tie against some Comaphasers, but the chance of 50/50 doesn't even exist when opponent is using Choice Scarf.

    There are some more counterplays and respective solutions omitted.

    In general, Comaphasing has the choice or possibility to counter the majority of the commonly viable counter plays from the opponent, makes a lot games depending on the matchup of the counterplay, and most importantly, somewhat partially removes the choice of action from the opponent. Although the strategy does have some commonly viable checks, it is nowhere near healthy for the metagame, and therefore will be banned from the SM Balanced Hackmons.
    Ban Comatose + Sleep Talk Combo
     
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  8. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    Ok not much getting posted here so I thought I'd post a couple of sets:
    [​IMG]
    Gyarados-Mega @ Safety Goggles
    Ability: Unaware
    EVs: All of 'em
    Careful Nature
    - Knock Off
    - Shore Up
    - Anchor Shot / Spectral Thief
    - Icicle Spear

    This is a fairly offensive unaware user I've seen a bit. Its main advantage is that it resists Moongeist Beam and Sunsteel Strike, which otherwise break through unaware Pokemon. It also has solid 95/109/130 bulk to make use of defensive abilities and a good 155 atk stat to do respectable damage.
    Only things worth noting are Anchor Shot for fairies and to trap imposter or opposing sweepers before they realise you're unaware and Icicle spear to hit Mega Rayquaza and zygod for good damaging (it also doesn't ohko innards out chansey).

    [​IMG]

    Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
    Ability: Stakeout
    EVs: All of 'em
    Adamant Nature
    - V-create
    - Thousand Arrows
    - U-turn
    - Trick / Sacred Fire

    This is (in my opinion) one of the greatest wall breakers available. It combines Primal Groudon's deviating 180 base attack with its amazing STAB moves in V-create (with blistering 180 base power) and Thousand Arrows which hits almost everything relevant for neutral damage. This set also makes use of one of our new abilities from SM - Stakeout - which doubles damage on switching making it almost impossible to switch in on safely. However this also makes it extremely difficult to imposterproof. U-turn for pivoting and trick to further cripple walls.

    252+ Atk Stakeout Choice Band Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 393-463 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (on a switch)
    This just shows how little can switch in without having fur coat.
     
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  9. fsk

    fsk Kept hacking Tier Leader Server Moderator Tier Leader Server Moderator

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    Hi and all, there is quite some more issues to look at in SM Balanced Hackmons. And as your new TL, here is a brief plan of what will be going on. The input of the community is crucial, and I encourage everyone who would like to contribute to the tiering process to participate.

    The following elements are brought up to attention and thought to be broken or unhealthy by at least some players.

    Water Bubble (argued to be overpowered and demanding specific checks)
    Dazzling/Queenly Majesty ; Psychic Surge (some argue that the priority blocking effect make setup sweeper hard to revenge kill)
    Innards Out (some argue it is cheesy to remove win-con from the opponent, or to remove the only wall to some threat with ease)
    Protean (argued to be hard to wall and unpredictable, overshadowing most of other attacking ability in terms of wallbreaking, and has apparent advantage in matchup against many attackers)
    Moody (argued to be stupidly luck based, depending on the evasion it gets to be effective, and together with the new non-immune power trip)
    Primal Groundon/Primal Kyogre (argued to be too good at wallbreaking. The former has access to STAB Thousand arrows, STAB V-create, and even a possibility to use Stakeout Ice Hammer to deal with Zygarde-C; the latter is good with both Poison Heal and Water Bubble set and hard to stop.)

    (Right now, I would not personally endorse nor object to any of the above brief arguments here.)

    However, many of the thoughts and arguments I've heard of was coming from a different metagame on pokemon showdown, where there was an EV restriction erroneously implemented and was just corrected very recently. Therefore, to make it possible that we will have grounded and solid arguments in the following discussion, I am hosting this Experience Building Tournament, in place of the low quality ladder. In addition, if anyone has interest in contributing to the tier, feel free to ask for battles for some of the participants when you spot them on the server. I believe they wouldn't refuse if you ask kindly.

    In addition, the battle log of the Experience Building Tournament would be sorted and posted in the Round thread after each round ends. Feel free to go over it for some insight of how certain ability would impact the teambuilding or the tier as a whole.

    Tentatively, there will be a suspect test around the beginning of Round 3 of the Experience Building Tournament, and I hope at that time, what is the most urgent issue of the metagame would be more clear.

    Other clarifications:
    Arceus form glitch of PO.
    It is known that in game, an arceus cannot transform to a type other than normal without the ability Multitype and a correspoding plate or Z crystal. However, as the community decided in generation 6, we would like to keep every type of Arceus available with any allowed ability in Balanced Hackmons, to offer the chance for the players to utilize them effectively. In this generation, I will keep this decision for now, and it is still up to the community to decide whether we shall keep it.

    Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team.
    When counting, the server will take Mold breaker, Turboblaze, and Teravolt to be the same ability. Same with queenly majesty and dazzling. This is intended as it was originally proposed, and in effect already for some time. So just to inform you about it.

    Past Generation of Balanced Hackmons:
    As there was a lack of activity of tiering at the end of ORAS Balanced Hackmons, I hereby confirm that the banlist of ORAS Balanced Hackmons is still subjected to change. Some have argued for the ban of PH Kyogre since it was centralizing, and other proposals, such as a Moody ban, was not actually discussed fully. It is a fact that my main focus for now is the latest Gen 7 version. But should you have any good arguments for a change for ORAS BH, feel free to post in past generation discussion subforum and it will be looked into, maybe at a later time.
     
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  10. Valky

    Valky Valky

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    Alright. So I'm gonna make a suggestion right now - please ban Serene Grace. In my opinion this should be a very calculateable tier, and if someone runs like Substitute-MMY with Air Slash and Serene Grace flinching your wall 4 times by RNG.. I don't think this is healthy for the tier.
     
  11. fsk

    fsk Kept hacking Tier Leader Server Moderator Tier Leader Server Moderator

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    Simply put, RNG is part of the game, and all RNG-related issues could be broken or not broken. Simply stating a fact that a certain ability depends on RNG to break some of your walls is not enough to prove either direction.

    Well then, my opinion on Serene Grace is actually simple: though the ability could rely on certain move combination to deliberately generate some haxes, the power and effectiveness of it is overshadowed by the majority of the viable abilities. That being said, you could hardly find any serious BH teams to have a serene grace MMY, since Protean, psychic surge, Contrary, Moody, -Ate, Stakeout, Tinted Lens, Simple,No guard and many more are just better options to run and much more effective. When a serene grace MMY relies on air slash and dark pulse to get some flinches, there are numerous common support mons that can take the hits superbly easy and threaten back by either pivot out to a faster attacker or priority attacker, or just hit it through the sub using move like Spectral Thief, which is spammed everywhere. Even the attackers usually doesn't take much from these non-stab moves from MMY. MMY itself has so many better options (many of them if played correctly can simply 2HKO the majority of the meta without hax) and I don't see any reason why we need to look at Serene Grace at the moment. If you think of RNG-generated hax, Moody would be the biggest issue, and it is already in our plan of tiering focus.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  12. fsk

    fsk Kept hacking Tier Leader Server Moderator Tier Leader Server Moderator

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    After quite a long time of scrutiny, we have some new quick-bans held long enough and they are finally here.
    Ban Moody.

    Notoriously known as one of the few legal ways to get evasion stat boost in BH, Moody turns out to be a very inconsistent and luck-based way to increase the stat of its user. Usually packed with a combo of King’s Shield/Spiky Shield/Baneful Bunker + Substitute (with an upper tier speed), the Moody user always tries to stay in long enough to make itself much harder to deal with.

    It is a fact that there are a lot of ways to increase stats much more efficiently and consistently, at the same time offering more slots for coverage than Moody attacker, whose two slots are taken to be Substitute + Some way of Protect move already. However, most of the times Moody are chosen over other ways of stat boost just because its possibility to increase evasion and consequently make the game cancerously luck based: it is all left to the RNG to decide whether the user would get the Evasion boost, and dodge move due to Evasion boost. After all, I see the usage of Moody simply as a way to bypass the existing ban of evasion in BH, and therefore decided to take it out to make a more healthy meta-game.

    In addition, I would respond to some existing/potential arguments:
    As long as evasion is a possibility, non-Unaware Spectral Thief doesn't solve the problem. Indeed, Spectral Thief Unaware seems to punish Moody a lot; however, Normal Type, although not receiving STAB for neither Stored Power nor Power Trip, can deal with Spectral Thief. As long as a hard-hitting attacker with evasion boost stands on the field, you would not find it an easy job to deal with it, regardless of whether it receives STAB or not.
    With the addition of the Dark type counterpart of Stored Power, aka Power trip, the primary attack of Moody user could possibly have no immunity. In the past, the most common Moody abuser Mega Mewtwo Y couldn't afford to use Taunt since it can be hard walled by dark type. Now with Power Trip on some other possible abusers, Taunt becomes a very possibility to deal with Pseudo Haze. Prankster Heart Swap/Encore are also blocked by Dark type Power Trip Abusers this gen, while Haze Prankster mons usually cannot do much to a Taunt variant other than to stop them temporarily and possibly having trouble switching in.

    After all, with the major intention of increasing Evasion, and having the potential to deal with its common checks, Moody proves itself to be an evasion-dependent RNG-based factor in deciding a game, and therefore will be banned from SM Balanced Hackmons.


    ------
    Ban Innards Out

    Intuitively, the Ability Innards Out gives you a definite feeling of "cheap”: it is a blanket check to almost anything while requiring little to no setup. (Although a blanket check to the meta is not the reason to qualify its ban.)

    To consistently deal with Innards Out, you have a few options: 1) Use Magic Guard attackers 2) deliberate lowering damage output per hits, such as min attack on defensive pivots, or Multi-hits attack that does a safe range of damage. 3) chip damage and indirect damage like status/hazards/curse, and passive play style in general.

    The most common set is a minimum defense (0IV, 0EV, Nature -) Chansey/Blissey (or low defensive invested High HP pokemon in general) that almost blows like a bomb in front of any physical touch.

    252 Atk Aegislash-Shield U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Chansey: 524-617 (74.4 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    0 Atk Arceus-Steel U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Chansey: 727-856 (103.2 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 Atk Zygarde-Complete U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Chansey: 622-732 (88.3 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    In addition, Innards Out can actually be slapped on any pokemon with a high base HP stat just to get a surprise kill. Offensive Innards Out user can also pressure the passive play style with Shell Smash set up attacking set, even with a broad-coverage not necessarily imposter-proof and force the speed tie with Chansey. The makes Innards Out usage more unpredictable in general.

    There are a few cases of 50/50s in BH that was deemed acceptable. However, unlike Prankster Destiny Bond (which need to switch-in safely to the field to be effective and may need to sacrifice sth to do so) Innards Out requires little to no setup and the only thing needed is a correct guess of the time to switch. Therefore, an Innards Out suicide bomb almost always sits in a somewhat privileged position when it comes to the mind game: the action of guessing the switch to make a favorable 1 for 1 trade definitely has a lower risk than the opposing side. Even the opposing side can potentially see an Innards Out on the back of the squad, <predicting that it switching in and acting accordingly> takes a lot more risk and can potentially ruin all the pressure and advantage the opposing side has gained before. If the opposing side fell for the trade that is favorable to the Innards Out user, a very important win-con or a very important wall could possibly be removed, totally disrupting the game matchup for many games.

    One potential argument against the ban is that some other things are hard to wall and such a good "blanket check to almost anything" so that the meta is playable; I would just remind that keeping a cancer to check a cancer is not a good reason for no ban.

    In conclusion, Innards Out, while being splashable and unpredictable, gains too much reward for minimal effort or skill, creating 50/50s with a truly low counterplay potential and a high cost of counterplay, and possibly disrupting the game matchup. Therefore it will be banned from SM Balanced Hackmons.


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    Ban Water Bubble

    Water Bubble upon its existence has created a lot of concern as it doubles the power of all water moves, and proves to be so hard to wall.

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus-Water: 358-422 (80.6 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus-Water: 264-312 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 358-422 (71 - 83.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 358-422 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Gyarados-Mega: 228-268 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Gyarados-Mega: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Aside from the specifically designed hard counter in Water Absorb, Storm Drain and Desolated Land on certain pokemons, the most generally reliable check is Imposter Eviolite Chansey, which can tank 4 hits of Spec Water Spout from Primal Kyogre.

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 194-228 (27.5 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    While Non-Fairy Water Absorb and Storm Drain fears a Core Enforcer from a non-Choice set on the switch, common Desolated Land users such as Primal Groudon could also vulnerable to coverage like Groud Judgment in addition to the potential Core Enforcer. As the calculations showed above, the bulkiest Water Resist such as Giratina and Arceus-Water can be OHKOed by a spec Water Spout Set after a little chip damage, and Assault Vest Gyarados-Mega does not take much more while worrying about a Steam Eruption burn. After all, the true thing aside from Chansey that can safely switch in against it is simply Fairy Water Absorb user, which just prove how devastating it truly is. As long as the Water Bubble user has a good imposter proof teammate, opposing imposter Chansey can be worn down eventually in the long run.

    The above is just about Kyogre-Primal, not to mention some other viable sets such as Greninja-ash with a higher speed, Gyarados-Mega being a physical attacker immune to burn, Palkia receiving Core Enforcer STAB and so on. Kyogre-Primal itself also has the potential to lure in and kill Water Absorb users by running a physical Ground Z or Poison Z move, while packing another Spec/Scarf Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal in the back.

    252+ Atk Kyogre-Primal Acid Downpour (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Fairy: 352-416 (79.2 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Kyogre-Primal Tectonic Rage (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Magearna: 362-428 (99.4 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

    In the first Round of the recent SM Balanced Hackmon Experience Building Tournament, almost all Water Bubble User either swept successfully or ended up taken out by an Innards Out User, which is a cancerous element of the meta-game and already decided to be banned.

    In conclusion, Water Bubble is simply too hard to wall without dedicated checks like Fairy Water Absorb user which does not do anything major otherwise. The ability has little to no downside and can even sweep through specific counters. Therefore, it will be banned from SM Balanced Hackmons.


    With Moody, Innards Out and Water Bubble banned, a new suspect test will be up soon.


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    Edit April 8th: Primal Groudon suspect is now up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
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