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[Metagame] Discussion about Eevee's broken Baton Pass

Discussion in 'Gen 7 Ubers' started by Mysterious M, Jan 9, 2017.

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  1. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    [​IMG]
    I wanted to start a discussion regarding the use of Z-Move Last resort, along with baton pass. With the right support, this can be very annoying for most team archetypes to face, and i believe it harms the competitive aspect of the SM Ubers tier. The set is the following:

    Eevee (M) @ Eevium Z
    Ability: Run Away
    EVs: 240 HP / 36 Def / 16 SDef / 216 Spd
    Hardy Nature
    - Last Resort
    - Baton Pass
    - Sing
    - Substitute
    With the right amount of support this can be really frustrating to face. It has already made its appearance in Smogon's Tournaments, and the results are noteworthy.

    Link of an RMT with this set

    I would like to discuss a potential ban of it. Let me hear your opinions.​
     
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  2. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

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    I just had three low-ladder matches using the team linked to in the above post, and here are my thoughts:

    Any hype surrounding Extreme Evoboost, and any complaints about this strategy being "overpowered" can be explained in exactly the same way as with people's reactions to the SmashPass strategy back in BW1 Ubers in 2011-2012. Yes, it is true that Extreme Evoboost can allow someone to completely destroy their opponent regardless of the difference in skill levels, depending on the team matchup. And yes, I can perfectly understand the sheer shock value of replays such as this one. However, one thing is incredibly clear to me:

    There is no consistency whatsoever to this strategy.

    This strategy loses to Extreme Killer Arceus leads. It loses to Ditto if the opponent can break Eevee's Substitute, which isn't difficult at all. Fast Taunt leads such as Deoxys-S beat it, or at the very least turns its win condition into a 50/50. A Mega Kangaskhan lead makes this strategy very risky. A simple Mega Sableye lead that spams Foul Play from turn 1 turns the entire game into a 50/50 for this strategy. And Lum Berry on a random Pokémon destroys this whole strategy.

    Extreme Evoboost teams depend very heavily on a single win condition, which, if disrupted, almost guarantees a loss for its user. While it may be true that many teams, such as Level 56's team in the replay I linked to are completely helpless against this strategy, its win condition is just way too easily disrupted by random things, including everything I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

    Anyone who thinks that this strategy is "overpowered" in any sense of the word is literally saying that SmashPass was overpowered in BW1/BW2 Ubers. Not only was this far from the case, but it wasn't even good in those metagames. Just like how Extreme Evoboost is not good in SM Ubers. I very highly doubt that it's possible to achieve a consistently good win-loss record with this strategy, much less do something like peaking #1 with 1700+ points with it.

    With that said, I can see one possible argument for banning Extreme Evoboost. Such an argument has nothing to do with this strategy being "too good," because as I just explained, it's actually pretty terrible. Rather, such an argument should revolve around the way this strategy augments the luck-based effect of team matchups on this metagame. In the same way that certain banned strategies in Übers such as one-hit KO moves, Swagger, Moody and Hypnosis Mega Gengar can easily allow someone to have a decent chance of defeating a much more skilled opponent in a single battle if they have luck on their side, so too can a person bring an Extreme Evoboost-based team against a much more skilled opponent in a single battle, hoping that the team said opponent brings just so happens to not contain one of the numerous things that are capable of easily countering this strategy. Even with this in mind though, I still highly doubt that Extreme Evoboost requires a ban, suspect test, or anything of the sort, otherwise SmashPass would have been suspect tested long ago back in BW1/BW2 Ubers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  3. E.T.

    E.T. Proud Member Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I've been playing around with Eevee + Whimsicott for a bit while letting Eevee have the option of passing to standard Ubers Pokemon (the team isn't solely dedicated to Eevee like the RMT team already mentioned. Prankster Encore or Memento can usually create opportunities for Eevee to set up, and while Tailwind is not something that I've tried yet, that looks like it could have much better potential. Arceus-Ground has probably been the main recipient that I've used, and usually if it gets boosts, it wins.

    The main issues I've had with the strategy so far are:
    1. Solgaleo can't be Memento'd, so it can make setting up quite difficult.

    2. Choice Scarf Ditto can copy some recipients and win 1v1, but there are also Pokemon that it has trouble revenge-killing, such as certain Arceus sets and Return / Frustration Mega Salamence.

    3. Taunt users like Yveltal can delay Eevee's Baton Pass (Taunt doesn't stop the boost since it is based on Last Resort), but the Taunt user (or a Taunt user's teammate) needs to have the means to KO / phase / Haze Eevee before its Taunt wears off.

    4. Overly offensive teams tend to create a lot less opportunities to set up (again, I haven't tried Tail Wind + Memento yet).

    It is too early for me to tell if Eevium Z is broken in Ubers, but it is a new addition that should be considered when teambuilding.
     
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  4. The Norman

    The Norman :o

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    I've Been Playing around with Mew and Eevee. I think it is not Much broken but it leads everyone to Rage on me because I Evoboost then BP to a Choice Band Power Trip Krookodile or Espeon which is annoying for everyone , But Evopass has its weaknesses. But the weaknesses are Less in this Generation because Evoboost can boost Every Stats which means we don't have to pass One by one. It makes the team easier to Take attacks and Sweep. The Most Frustrating set with BP is Power Trip Band Krookodile which sweeps everything. I Think this Evoboost is only weak to few things. They are ,

    1.) Fast Taunt users in the Lead

    2.) Perish Song

    3.) Heart Swap

    4.) Haze

    5.) Dragon Tail

    6.) Whirlwind and Roar.

    7.) Some Priority Moves

    But Surprisingly , Evoboost BP can Stop Haze , Heart Swap , Dragon Tail , Whirlwind , Roar , Perish Song mons by Gravity and Tailwind for Speed and Accuary from Mew + substitute and Sing from Eevee. Taunt Mons can also be stopped by Espeon and Mew Contains Focus Sash which saves it from First Priority Moves. It is even safe to its Weaknesses. I think it should be banned.I Had the Experience using it. It is Very annoying.

    Thanks to Mysterious M for Opening this Discussion Thread about Annoying BP Evopass :)
     
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  5. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Just a reminder, this is not a suspect or something. Just a thread to share our own views on the matter, i am glad with the responses so far!
     
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  6. overdose

    overdose Banned

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    can we ban this pls. or the move bp along with any boosts (dry passing only would b nice)
     
  7. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

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    Why ban something that's not good?
     
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  8. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    I am actually in favor of banning, just to keep a more clean meta, but this apparently is not enough.
     
  9. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Yeh EvoPass is really not overbearing at all since it still is rather easy to not let the Eevee pull off the Baton Pass with proper playing. I see no reason to ban it.
     
  10. overdose

    overdose Banned

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    i rarely ever misplay, and i know for a fact in this game i didn't. yet eevee pass proves to be uncompetitive

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-551043204

    please explain!

    i just dont see why we can't clean up a part of a tier that has a solid win chance given sleep rolls, and is uncompetitive as it relies on luck. taking it out serves no collateral and idk why ppl are so opposed
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  11. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Well judging by that replay alone, it looks like if ur Lunala had not missed the Focus Blast, you could have easily OHKOed the Eevee, thus preventing the sweep.

    252+ SpA Lunala Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eevee: 416-490 (133.7 - 157.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    The only luck factor here was hitting the Fblast (and trust me that happens to us all)

    In a more general context, I still believe EvoPass is a risky tactic due to how much support it needs to function properly. Setting up Tailwind, Gravity, and netting the sleep with Sing is not as easy as it seems on paper, especially in an offensive meta where the turns used setting up can easily be capitalized by setup sweepers such as Z-Geomancy Xerneas, Swords Dance Mega Lucario, and Dragon Dance Mega Salamence. Its an annoying strategy to face if unprepared, but realistically is one that should be prepared for naturally on any serious SM Ubers team. I dont see the issue here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  12. overdose

    overdose Banned

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    why would we not want to ban it, its relying on sing hitting and sleep rolls a game we want to play. it seems uncompeititve to me, and has some auto win matchups (lance stall esque teams lacking magearna)
     
  13. Californium

    Californium Infinitely Dreaming

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    Absolutely not, Extreme Evoboost is not even the unhealthy element, baton pass is, The Infamous Eevee-Pass that Thimo uses is not optimised and there are stronger baton pass chain teams out there. Banning Eeveeium-Z or Extreme Evoboost + Baton Pass does not remove the unhealthy element of Baton passing: Quick passing, Smash Passing, Full or semi chains.

    If you want to resolve the issue you need to use a philosophy of banning Baton Pass or chaining boosts itself. because I'm not convinced an un-optimised team that has a 33% chance to win against a well seasoned opponent is the most 'broken' baton pass team out there, full chains are statistically more sound against the right builds, same with teams such as smash pass.
     
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  14. overdose

    overdose Banned

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    how about we ban boost passing
     
  15. E.T.

    E.T. Proud Member Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    A ban on boost passing is very unlikely to happen because from a tiering perspective, it is a complex ban that is too complex, and from an implementation perspective, it would be way more trouble to code than it is worth—hence why PO simply banned the move Baton Pass in lower tiers.

    As for chain passing, there was a clause in ORAS Ubers that limited the number of Baton Pass users per team to 1. This clause has not been applied to SM Ubers, but it would be easy to implement if it is needed.
     
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  16. overdose

    overdose Banned

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    that doesn't really deal with the problem of eevee pass tho
     
  17. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    After watching baton pass used in UPL, all i see is the fact that it makes the meta worse. I believe that banning baton pass can only lead to a healthier metagame and i want to start a voting in order to see a potential ban. Thoughts on that?
     
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