1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Guest, due to a lack of interest, playerbase, and general desire to continue, PO will hereby cease our separate tiering and adopt Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.

    Dismiss Notice

[Metagame] Suspect Discussion: Porygon-Z / Conversion

Discussion in 'Gen 7 UU' started by Xdevo, Mar 12, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Sp00pyScarySkeleton Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,468
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Discuss the possibility of Porygon Z being banned from the SM UU tier.
    Use this thread to discuss Porygon Z's impact on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it is capable of using, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on Porygon Z and if it should or shouldn't be banned from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.​

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against the suspect in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".​

    Users that are unsure about suspect posting are encouraged to check this guide out.​
     
    Joyverse likes this.
  2. Xdevo

    Xdevo Sp00pyScarySkeleton Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,468
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    For those of you that can read, you'll note that the suspect is for both Porygon-Z and conversion, this is because Z-Conversion (+1 to all stats + changes type) is essentially the main reason that Porygon-Z is a suspect at all. Given that only 3 pokemon learn conversion (only 2 of which are competitively viable), there's a good argument to be made that conversion itself is broken.

    If you want to discuss, Z-Conversion as a suspect feel free to do so.
     
  3. La.Melle2402

    La.Melle2402 I'm the bone of my sword

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    442
    i think we should ban only Z-Conversion. Porygon-Z itself isnt broken. But a move which gives +1 to each stat is. Since only P2 and P-Z (not sure, but can mew learn it too?) can learn this move I think we should ban it
     
    Joyverse likes this.
  4. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2011
    Messages:
    2,173
    Likes Received:
    557
    PO Trainer Name:
    Joeypals
    Gonna bounce off Melle here and agree completely by sourcing a similar ban -- Conversion in LC because of Porygon. Sure the tiers aren't the same, but it should stand to reason that there's some parallel. Just like P-Z, Porygon itself is a good Pokemon, but by no means broken. When Z-Conversion became a thing, it became way too much and instead of banning the Z-Crystal or Porygon, the move Conversation was banned. The same stands true for Porygon-Z, a Pokemon that by no means is broken but has access to a broken Z-move for the metagame.

    Long story short, let the weird computer glitch duck stay and ban the move that makes it way too much.
     
    Joyverse and La.Melle2402 like this.
  5. E.T.

    E.T. Proud Member Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2013
    Messages:
    1,130
    Likes Received:
    1,172
    PO Trainer Name:
    E.T.
    The problem with Porygon-Z is that Z-Conversion gives it a way to boost all of its stats to +1 while potentially changing its type to another type of its choosing. Changing to an Electric-type and running BoltBeam coverage can work nicely, and it can also run Hidden Power Ground for further coverage or Recover to better deal with specially bulky Pokemon and priority users. I've also seen variants that change to a Ghost-type with Shadow Ball as a primary STAB move. Porygon-Z can run Download to potentially get an additional +1 boost, but Adaptability is another option that is more consistent and can deal with Unaware users like Clefable and Quagsire more easily.

    The most reliable answer to Porygon-Z is probably Blissey with Toxic. Priority users such as Bisharp or Choice Scarf users like Staraptor can revenge kill Porygon-Z if it took a decent amount of damage when setting up. Other Pokemon such as Empoleon or Quagsire can be helpful for certain sets (Empoleon can Roar out the Shadow Ball set and Quagsire can beat the BoltBeam set), but if Porygon-Z is used correctly, you won't know the set until it has already set up, which makes these unreliable answers. Ultimately, Z-Conversion Porygon-Z doesn't have enough reliable answers, and it would be unhealthy for it to remain in the tier.

    As for whether to ban Conversion or Porygon-Z, consider what will be lost. If Porygon-Z is banned, then SM UU and future SM lower tiers will not allow Porygon-Z to be used at all, so one Pokemon is lost. If Conversion is banned, this will essentially only ban a type of set (the set that is causing Porygon-Z to be suspected), but Porygon-Z can remain in the tier. A Conversion ban would also only affect Porygon2 and Porygon, but Porygon2 doesn't have a reason to use Z-Conversion when Download + Eviolite would essentially give it the same thing with much more flexibility apart from a Speed boost, a buff that would be mostly irrelevant, and the ability to change types. Meanwhile, Porygon shouldn't be used outside of LC. Some people may want to bring up the slippery slope argument of banning the move to keep the Pokemon, but with Z-Moves, I think it is better to look at these on a case by case basis, especially when banning the move offers the opportunity to precisely eliminate the problem with little to no collateral damage.
     
    Jethalal and fsk like this.
  6. Xdevo

    Xdevo Sp00pyScarySkeleton Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,468
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Due to the points brought up, Conversion is hereby banned in SM UU.
     
    Joeypals!!, Joyverse and La.Melle2402 like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.