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[Balanced Hackmons] Suspect Discussion: Groudon-Primal [Banned]

Discussion in 'Gen 7 Side Metagames' started by fsk, Apr 9, 2017.

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  1. fsk

    fsk Woke up after a long dream Forum Moderator Server Moderator Forum Moderator Server Moderator

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    [​IMG]
    Discuss the possibility of Groudon-Primal being banned from the SM Balanced Hackmons tier. As in Hackmon mechanics, Groudon-Primal can be directly selected as a form to use and this is what the discussion is about; do not diverse the discussion by talking about Red Orb normal Groudon.

    Use this thread to discuss Groudon-Primal’s effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, possible partners and team support, and potential checks and counters. State your opinion on whether you think it should be banned or if it should stay in SM Balanced Hackmons.

    All opinions are valid, and discussion amongst players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your judgment is backed with sound reasoning and validation coming from experience having played with / against Groudon-Primal in the tier. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken”, and do not make arguments via theorymoning.

    Check out the sample sets for Groudon-Primal if you want to test more possible sets of it. Check out the Guide to Suspect Posting before getting started if you are unsure of anything.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
  2. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    Ok so what makes this lava dinosaur special? Statwise it is one of the highest BST 'mons in the tier. It boasts a formidable 180 base attack, with it's "weak" offense being 150 - putting it among other threats such as Mega Diancie (160 both). It's physical bulk is impressive with 100/160 allowing it to tank almost any physical hit.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 270-320 (66.9 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    It's special bulk, however, is manageable but far from extraordinary.
    The weakest aspect of its stats is a poor speed base stat of 90, which leaves it lagging behind almost everything in the tier (tying with other groudon/kyogre, outspeeding chansey and the somewhat uncommon Mega Gyarados and being slower that every other relevant mon).

    The other aspect that affects Primal Groudon's presence is it's typing.
    Defensively it is weak to only two types - water and ground. The former is rarely used offensively except by Primal Kyogre and this weakness can be easily alleviated by making use of Desolate Land or Water Absorb; the latter however is one of the most commonly used offensive types, especially as a coverage move which leaves P'don vulnerable to a lot of offensive Pokemon. It resists some common offensive types such as Electric, Fairy, Fire and Steel, but takes neutral damage from most types.
    Offensive it is blessed with two STABs that offer it some of the most powerful moves in the game. V-create is the move of choice with its 180 base power but comes with the mixed blessing of stat drops and Thousand Arrows which gives almost perfect neutral coverage on its own. Other notable moves are Sacred Fire with its burning coin flip to potentially cripple physical mons or just wear them down with chip damage and Precipice Blades for more power. On the special side Blue Flare is a relatively powerful move and Earthpower/Fusion Flare are reliable. Eruption is also available for the adventurous.

    So what does all that actually mean?
    Defensively P-don's key resists when coupled with a defensive ability such as soundproof or Desolate Land enable it to perform well as hard hitting utility Pokemon that can check some key threats, but it is largely outclassed by Zygarde-Complete and any appropriate Arceus forms.
    Due to it's slow speed this behemoth is unlikely to sweep without boosts which leaves it's other notable roles: wall breaker and contrary booster.
    To deal with Contrary first, P-don offers the highest attack STAB V-create, as well as the bulk to really stack up boosts. This allows it to increase it's speed to enable it to take out offensive Pokemon that it otherwise struggles against, and even without another ability V-create is still incredibly powerful. However most of these sets are bait for Imposter or are hard walled by many of the bulkier fire resists including but not limited to most sets for Arceus-Water, Zygarde-Complete and Giratina. The prevalence of these defensive Pokemon, as well as Spectral Thief really don't allow this set to make a large impact on the metagame.
    Last but definitely not least is the role of wall breaker. With it's incredible double 180 of base attack and base power STAB move it can tear holes through all but a few specialised checks. It generally makes use of Choice Band for this role to maximise it's attack and abilities such as Desolate Land, Stakeout and Tinted Lens to further increase it's damage. Also, due to it's natural bulk most defensive Pokemon will struggle to 2HKO without super effective coverage, so cannot use that as a way to avoid taking a hit. At this point the calcs speak for themselves:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 390-458 (61.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 392-462 (88.2 - 104%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    It commonly makes use of U-turn which deals notable chip damage to any potential counters and can bring in it's teammates, particularly hard hitting special Pokemon, that can kill or force out it's counters helping to wear them down to within kill range. These counters are essentially limited to Fur Coat Giratina, Zygarde-Complete and Arceus-Water and these can be crippled with Trick to make them almost ineffective for the remainder of the battle or outright killed by stakeout sets with appropriate coverage. The biggest weakness of P-don is it's slow speed which allows many defensive Pokemon, especially Arceus, to weaken it such with Parting Shot or other stat lowering moves (but this can heavily backfire against contrary) or by removing abilities or items such as with Knock Off or Gastro Acid - all of which make it more manageable. There is also the possibility to OHKO with water coverage moves, however these are extremely rare and serve almost no other role and without STAB Steam Eruption is needed for the kill from most defensive Pokémon. All of this leaves defensive or slow paced teams with little or no answer to it except Fur Coat walls and even these are not reliable answers to a number of sets.

    Tl;dr: It's a slightly lack luster sweeper and support 'mon but can perform these roles somewhat effectively. However as a wall breaker it has no hard defensive counters and can make stall or even bulky balance almost unplayable but can be checked easily by most offensive teams.

    Still Tl;dr: I'm not making this any shorter.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
  3. SupremeKai6

    SupremeKai6 New Member

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    I wrote a whole discussion and accidentally deleted it smh. So here goes again:

    P. Groudon definitely dominates in this tier. Any team is bettered by P. Groudon and because it's Hackmons, there's a lot of variety of sets that can be run effectively by this pokemon. I'll start off by saying I'm in support of a BAN of Primal Groundon in Balanced Hackmons

    OFFENSE:
    Offensively, P. Groudon can hit pretty every thing that's viable in the tier for hard damage, even for "not very effective" attacks. P. Groudon with a beneficial attack nature puts its base ATK at 504, only matched by Mega Rayquaza, Mega Heracross and Kartana. and surpassed by Mega Mewtwo X. Mega Heracross and Kartana aren't very viable in this tier, so Mega Mewtwo X or Mega Rayquaza are the two primary go to's, and Mega Mewtwo has no resistance to P. Groudon, making a switch in very painful. Mega Rayquaza does much better, but he still puts a nice dent in Mega Ray. Most sets include Flare Blitz and Thousand Arrows/Waves which both get STAB and hit the whole additionally hard. All of these options are also without the Desolate Land ability, which makes those Flare Blitzes extremely savage. Desolate Land also grants P. Groudon immunity to water, which is the primary weakness, outside of another ground type move, yet P. Groudon is the go-to ground type of the tier because of the aforementioned and subsequent reasons and has no real checks without using multiple pokemon to subdue and take him down. I've found ways to beat P. Groudon, but it always takes two pokemon and one of them typically dies in the process.

    DEFENSE:
    I personally run P. Groudon right now, and my set is Flare Blitz-Extremespeed-Thousand Waves/Arrows-ANY COVERAGE PHYSICAL MOVE w/ Assault Vest and this allows Groudon to eat special hits, and if the hits aren't water, it's not going to OHKO, and likely not even 2HKO P. Groudon. By having crazy high attack stat, and having a special buff through Assault Vest; to which a high Sp. Atk stat + STAB is basically necessary to do the most damage through the 4x water weakness, P. Groudon is a pain to take down without some clear strategy designed just for it.

    In addition, many users also run U-Turn, allowing P. Groudon a great opportunity to chip away at everything, and with Fake Out being rather common, people can chip away pretty effectively and you still have no real defense against P. Groudon, which basically disadvantages most of everything you can run against it.

    The most viable counter I've personally found against it is Primordial Sea Scizor (I swap between Life Orb and Assault Vest), which gets the job done, because it negates the rain, and w/ Crabhammer, is about the only thing that can take down P. Groudon in one hit if the user is crazy enough to let him sit for a turn. But without a beneficial speed nature, Mega Scizor sits at 249, P. Groudon sits at 279, allowing an easy U-Turn out, or all it takes is a switch out and back in and Scizor is now forced to switch out, and P. Groudon is free to run it's STAB at whatever you switch in for big damage. This strategy as far as I know is the most consistent counter I've had to P. Groudon and still involves a game of predicting to not put yourself in a bad position when facing it.

    While defensive/phazing sets are rare for Groudon, these are also problematic because he's already a bulky pokemon, so we're virtually talking about a pokemon that's already super bulky and unphased by many pokemon of the tier being in a position to be even less unphased. The overall issue at hand is that in addition to a viable team being ImposterProof and ShedinjaProof, we also have to be ready for P. Groudon, and it's difficult to adequately prepare to take on all three of these threats with pokemon like unboosted Mega Ray and Mega Diancie Fake Out + Extremespeed/Boomburst crushing dreams in the metagame as well, and Baton Passing also making its way into common usage. P. Groudon sits like an anchor on the metagame, and while there are some killer strategies that come from Mega Diancie and Mega Ray, they both can be handled with much more ease than P. Groudon (And I was an avid supporter of banning Mega Ray for the longest).

    As a whole, based on the practicality of the tier, P. Groudon really forces players to have a check for it, and be disadvantaged while doing so, or get swept away and that's the definition of a pokemon being overpowered. All of this supports my initial decision to BAN Primal Groudon.
     
  4. fsk

    fsk Woke up after a long dream Forum Moderator Server Moderator Forum Moderator Server Moderator

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    Celebrating my 200th post here lol. Good to see you guys' participation in this suspect discussion. Also Tagging @Funbot28
    @Infa @チャンピオンワタル @jinwengong to share your opinions as you guys were top 5 of the leaderboard of my tour alongside willdbeast who had already posted.

    The suspect has been up for a week, and therefore I find it the right time to summarize some good pro-ban and no-ban arguments at your disposal. I actually have my opinion on this issues to one certain direction but I will try to cover as many decent arguments from both side.

    Ban Groudon-Primal because

    1) Groudon-Primal's sheer power in wall breaking is just overwhelming.
    There are many possible Groudon-Primal sets out there, and among them, the most dreadful set is the banded wall breaker. Paired with a 180 attack base stat, a 180 power Fire Type STAB, Choice Band, and Ability Tinted-Lens or Stakeout, it has the potential to OHKO the majority of the meta. The simple combination of 504 Atk stat, 180 power STAB move, and choice band already OHKOs most bulky non-resists like Arceus (25% OHKO directly, guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock damage). With Tinted-Lens, V-create OHKOs even fire resists like Arceus-Water; it also does up to 72% to Zygarde-Complete, 92% to Giratina and 87% to Slowbro Mega (without considering the ability of defensive side). Stakeout Band set does the same damage to resists that switches in with the intention to wall, and has the possibility to OHKO Fur Coat Zygarde-Complete with Ice Hammer on the switch-in, and to OHKO Giratina with Draco Meteor (which deals up to 95% to Zygarde-Complete, and 86% to Slower Mega too) on the switch. Since the existence of Stake-out Draco Meteor/Ice Hammer, the once trusted counters in the form of Fur Coat Zygarde-Complete or Giratina are no longer reliable either. Some tried to wall it with Primordial Sea (or Flash Fire), such as Kartana, Scizor-Mega or even Golisopod, Buzzwole and Arceus-Grass/Bug. But Kartana, Scizor-Mega or Ferrothorn is OHKOed by Stakeout Thousand Arrows on the switch, and Golisopod and Buzzwole doesn't want to take a Stakeout Draco either (which deals up to 89% and OHKO respectively). Arceus-Grass is also OHKOed by stakeout Ice Hammer on the switch. With appropriate team support like Sticky Web and Stealth Rock, really almost nothing can stop it. The True counter is usually Fur Coat Arceus-Water as long as it doesn't bring Bolt Strike. (The Primordial Sea Arceus-Bug is gimmicky and overshadowed in support utility other than walling Primal Groudon by other types of arceus due to its otherwise mediocre typing.)

    2) Groudon-Primal is superbly versatile and has the ability to lure and surprise kill.
    What Groudon-Primal is not only restricted to a wall-breaker. It has many viable sets other than Tinted Lens/Stakeout, which makes it very unpredictable. With a 150 Special Attack and 160 Def, it can function in many ways. Among these, the Contrary V-create set usually deals over 60% to the common non-resisted Unaware Pokemon out there due to its intrinsic power, and with its bulk, it sometimes can run a self-imposter-proof Contrary thousand waves set (without attack boosting moves) that can trap non-punch Chansey. To name a few other good sets, there are: Desolate Land that boosts its Fire Moves while removing the 4 time weakness of water, Magnet Pull that trap-kills the Steel Type walls weak to its Ground/Fire STAB, Special Oriented Self-Imposter-proof Galvanize Boomburst with Ice Judgment (or Refridgerate Boomburst sometimes) that lures in and kills the common answers like Water (e.g. the believed counter Arceus-Water) and Dragon type, and Scarf set outspeeding Mewtwo Mega Y and alike surprise KOs unprepared players. There are many more of them (Protean, Magic Guard, Adaptability, Storm Drain etc). Z-moves such as Subzero Slammer or Devastating Drake are also possible to further its wall breaking ability.

    3) Groudon-Primal's natural bulk makes it hard to wear down or revenge kill.
    Groudon-Primal has a great physical natural bulk, which boasts to live a 140 BP Power Trip from Shell-Smashed Tyranitar-Mega, and a +6 Extreme Speed from Jolly Regigigas after Belly Drum. Though with all its offensive ability, using it as a wall is not optimal (as mostly outclassed by Zygarde-Complete in support roles), this bulk just makes it hard to revenge kill or wear down, esp. physically. Even after using a shell smash (def stat drop 1), it lives a Fake out- Extreme Combo from Sky plate Aerilate Mega Ray. The bulk is not the sole reason it should be banned, but when such a hard hitter is so bulky as well, it makes it ever harder to deal with.

    Do Not Ban Groudon-Primal because

    1) Its speed tier and special bulk are not very good.
    With a base speed of 90, Groudon-Primal experiences speed tie with a good chunk of viable Pokemon and out-speed by a huge portion of the metagame. What usually stops Groudon-Primal to break the walls all on his own is the faster opponents. Faster Special attackers like Aerilate Boomburst Mega Ray simply KOs it with Sky Plate Fake Out-Boomburst (which by itself is a high roll KO) combo, and Protean Mewtwo Mega Y takes it out with ground judgment or LO earth power. Not to mention possible water coverage moves. All Prankster Spore sets can temporarily stop Band Wallbreaker set, and faster support such as Arceus-water or Prankster Giratina can remove its ability with Gastro Acid and alike in order to tank hits without an intact Tinted Lens, or can simply use scald (sometimes used to spread burns in the first place) to heavily damage it.

    2) V-create and Choice Item can backfire.
    In addition, Choice locked V-create wall breaking is vulnerable to King's Shield that quite some support Pokemon run. While the choice item move lock and V-create stat drop may give away a set-up opportunity to opponents. When the Choice Item is removed such as Knocked off, it partially loses its wall breaking ability as well.

    3) There are a lot of hard hitting Pokemon in the metagame, and if high base move power, high base stat and possibly choice items and tinted lens/stakeout all paired together, things like Rayquaza Mega and Mewtwo-Megas are also very hard to wall. Also, there is just as versatile attacker as Primal Groudon, namely Rayquaza Mega that can have many good viable sets with possibly different counters. What really differentiate Primal Groudon is its perfect STAB typing and its STAB move power with a devastating 180 base power. The holder of this idea is questioning what exactly element is making Primal Groudon broken and needs to be deal with, so they are proposing something else other than a Primal Groudon ban.
     
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  5. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

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    【天龍神】 ワタル
    I think Primal Groudon definitely needs to be banned, as not only do all the factors that led to its rightful banishment in the previous generation still apply, but the addition of the Ability Stakeout has made it even more difficult to handle. The only reason why Primal Groudon appeared to be fine in SM Balanced Hackmons between the very start of this metagame and recently was because the Ability Innards Out kept it in check somewhat, but that Ability is now banned.
     
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  6. Infa

    Infa New Member

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    I had the oportunity to use both galv and tinted lens sets of pdon, and I have to say the ammount of damage pdon deals is overwhelming, I literally found myself ko'ing a mon with V-Create everytime it went in a defensive mon or a slower one at that. There are too many sets that pdon can actually run and there are too little counters when you take everything into account. Either get kod on a switch by stakeout, maybe put in a resist to get it demolished by tinted lens, get pressured by desolate land etc. I personally vote Ban.
     
  7. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ok so I promised fsk that I would post in here and sorry for delaying, got caught up in a lot of IRL stuff. Anyways I would like to argue these main points as to why I believe Primal Groudon should be banned:

    1. Various amount of extremely viable offensive sets
    Primal Groudon is one of the most versatile threats in the current metagame with a numerous amount of viable sets ranging from Tinted Lens, Stakeout, Protean, Desolate Land, Pixilate, Galvanize, Prankster, Contrary, Magic Guard, Dazzling, etc. The thing that differentiates Primal Groudon from other offensive mons is that its amazing offenses, adequate bulk, and great STAB moves allows it to run all these various sets to relatively equal viability, making it extremely hard to properly scout which set it is running.

    2. Centralization
    Expanding on the first point, Primal Groudon's presence has caused a large strain when trying to properly teambuild due to its most common checks in Zygarde-C and Giratina being quite easy to lure with Ice coverage Stakeout/Protean and Pixilate/Refrigerate sets (hell even Choice Band Tinted Lens can 2HKO the aforementioned checks with V-Create if they are not Fur Coat variants). Balanced Hackmons will always be a metagame riddled with centralization just due to the nature within the mechanics, however Primal Groudon adds an unparalleled constraint to this phenomenon, severely restricting the diversity within the pool of viable options to be chosen when building a team.

    I could go on and explain further as to why Primal Groudon is toxic towards the BH meta, but I feel it already has been already well detailed in the posts above me.

    Ban Primal Groudon
     
  8. fsk

    fsk Woke up after a long dream Forum Moderator Server Moderator Forum Moderator Server Moderator

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    Primal Groudon's sheer power and offensive versatility outshines its weaknesses in speed tier and backfire effect of V-create (and both can be solved by appropriate team support anyway). After all, Balanced Hackmons, being technically a broken metagame, does not tolerate a pokemon that has almost no consistent counterplay and can possibly OHKO everything with the right set.

    With all the above posts, Primal Groudon is hereby banned from SM Balanced Hackmons.
     
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