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[Metagame] Suspect Discussion: Serperior

Discussion in 'Gen 7 UU' started by Xdevo, Apr 10, 2017.

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  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Discuss the possibility of Serperior being banned from the SM UU tier.
    Use this thread to discuss Serperior's impact on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it is capable of using, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on the suspect and if it should or shouldn't be banned from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against the suspect in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    Users that are unsure about suspect posting are encouraged to check this guide out.
     
  2. Valhalla

    Valhalla Banned

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    serp has solid checks in scarf rachi and torn t which are able to resist and outspeed. serp is a one trick mon with hard checks/counters in this tier and isn't too restricting in terms of teambuilding

    tldr it isn't ban worthy from my playing with it
     
  3. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Serperior has Glare, which can cripple Scarf Jirachi and Torn-T.

    Calling Serp a 1-trick mon is a bit silly; between SubSeed, Glare + 3atks, Grassium, and the various lure sets, Serperior isn't particularly easy to predict (yeah it'll boost with Leaf Storm, but the list of checks really varies by set).

    While yes, there are a significant number of checks (listing more than 2 would have been a good idea!), many are crippled by the glare set, or lose to one of the other sets. Scolipede, Scarf Jirachi, Torn-T, Mega Aero are all crippled by glare sets. Blissey and anything else with no real offensive presence lose to SubSeed. Latias loses to Knock Off (from the LO set) and is crippled by glare.

    It's pretty difficult to list something actually counters Serperior that isn't in one way crippled by one of the common moves it uses, which is the biggest issue when facing Serperior.
     
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  4. Valhalla

    Valhalla Banned

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    you're right in saying that the checks for serperior differ from set to set, but despite the set of serperior, it isn't too much to handle in practice.

    a replay that comes to mind is the powc between meatdealer and kushalos: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-269048.

    a few takeaways from this game is that serp is forced to make a 50/50 between glare and leafstorm when there is a ton in the back. its weak physical defense makes it susceptible to priority while it also gets worn down by hazards as its threated out by torn (torn comes in and revenges). while torn is weak to glare, it isn't hard to get torn in for free and kill serp as the initial leaf storm is really weak and some mons don't feel obliged to switch out.

    as for checks depending on the sets, i would say this a trend that happens with most pokemon, different sets have different checks. from what I've found though, you are usually able to predict which set the opp is running based on the makeup of the team (subseed isn't too common even from my experiences).

    a few pokemon which wall it no matter the set is spd jirachi. body breaks sub if the set is sub seed, while you can paralyze serp if its an hp fire offensive variant. a few other mons that generally beat serp are avest torn, clefabe (unaware beats offensive while magic guard beats sub seed), most scarfers with an unresisted stab, maero, latias (lives a knock off and kills with draco), doublade, chesnaught, togekiss, amoongus, and weavile to name a few.

    this was a more concise response as i didnt feel like elaborating when i thought my opinion was going to be the only side of the spectrum, although talking this out and being full fledge is better so i can fully flesh out my thoughts on this mon. while undeniably good, i don't think this is a pokemon that needs to be banned.
     
  5. Annoying Orange

    Annoying Orange sweet creature Server Moderator Social Media Rep Server Moderator Social Media Rep

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    you do know people have other things that help deal with removing these so called 100 percent checks and weaken them down to where say after switching into one leaf storm is asking for death by the second one and an easy setup for failure, right? serp doesnt have to always 50/50 with torn in the back either
     
  6. Valhalla

    Valhalla Banned

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    thats fair. although applying that logic, i can say mon x threatens mon y's checks and thus y is too powerful. but on its own, it's reasonable to handle. i think that any offensive team aims to break a teams checks/counters to a certain mon so it wins in the end game so idk how good of an argument that is. serperior on its own isn't broken i would argue and that sentiment is supported from the replays i've watched from powc and ladder matches i have done on the po ladder, i see no reason to think otherwise.

    unless i missed something then do share because i'd be keen to be proven wrong and ban something that's unhealthy but i haven't yet encounted
     
  7. fsk

    fsk Kept Hacking Tier Leader Server Moderator Tour Director Tier Leader Server Moderator Tour Director

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    I don't want to go in depth into my opinion since I haven't played much with Serperior myself, and I thought someone would post to correct these claims before me but nvm.

    0 Atk Jirachi Body Slam vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 64-76 (20.9 - 24.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
    ???

    Beside the minor point that torn doesn't like to get glared, magic guard is not a sub seed Serp check.

    +2 200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Clefable: 256-303 (64.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Latias doesn't kill in one shot.
    252 SpA Soul Dew Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 237-279 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    I don't know why weavile/M-Aero are listed here either, as all others you put in that line were slower grass resist that would try to switch in, while weavile/M-Aero takes over 50%/dies after SR against LO Serp so surely not gonna switch into it. (although can threat it out so yeah offensive checks)
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  8. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    If we actually want to talk about true counters we have Goodra and the very not used at all Bouffalant. The first has to rely on Assault vest most of the time to deal with Electric mons as well and the latter is like not good at all in any meta at all.

    In the replay you're showing all I see is that Kushalos had no choice but to stay in and attack it just to avoid losing 1v1 to sub seed or Glare Z Hyper Beam ( yeah that thing hurts a lot)

    Also Jirachi has better stuff to do like checking Fairy mons such as Clefable rather than dealing with Serp, because it loses to Sub Seed either way on the switch in.

    However, I do believe there are ways to play around Serperior, as most of the sets will commonly lose to support Crobat, considering this one has Infiltrator to simply beat it. That doesn't mean Serperior is healthy for the metagame, because being forced to run some mons just to not lose to a specific mon is the definition of overwhelming and not good for the metagame.

    Sadly my experience in UU is not the biggest one so I'll avoid saying ban or no ban considering there might be more options to exploit in UU at the moment
     
  9. Valhalla

    Valhalla Banned

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    some of this stuff is nitpicky or blatantly false.

    torn is a good counter, idk how the potential set of glare discredits it at all and to say that is kinda ignorant imo. the serp evs you used are tailored to that certain calc and thats very nitpicky and after rocks theres a 50% chance to kill serp with draco which is a pretty good chance and thats not even including lo recoil. i also included m aero and weavile to show, while on paper, its counters are limited, in practice and actual play, this mon isn't too much to handle. look, its not like i have this personal agenda to have serp in uu because its my favorite pokemon, i just don't think banning stuff unnecessarily is needed. on that note, if you can provide replays to where serp is broken and such, then by all means i will jump on the bandwagon to ban that mon, but right now you havent been able to prove that.
     
  10. fsk

    fsk Kept Hacking Tier Leader Server Moderator Tour Director Tier Leader Server Moderator Tour Director

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    @Valhalla
    My post is nowhere nitpicking as I am correcting your inaccurate claims (Sub not broken by Jira, MG Clef not a check), or help you clear what you may want to say (Draco kills with a little chip damage, and checks and counters mix listed in a strange way). As I already said, I was not posting a pro-ban/no ban argument; instead, I would like to make the discussion post more accurately put, as some of your points wasn't truly clear or just shown to be incorrect by some basic calcs. If you want to convince people to ban or not ban a pokemon, you need to first put forth accurate argument, am I right?
    1)
    "56 HP EV spread allows Serperior's Substitute to survive one Hydro Pump from Rotom-W" this is what usually show up if you search for its analysis.
    And this is the very default Sub-seed set in the calculator that most people use, if you ever check.
    2)
    AVest Torn is indeed a reliable counter in terms of tanking, no one denies that; but you cannot deny it doesn't like para as the original speed tier of Torn was important. That's why I put "the minor point that torn doesn't like to get glared." MG Clef is obviously not a check though.
    3)
    "Kills with draco" is inaccurate, therefore I post the calc so the readers can learn that it needs SR or chip damage to ensure a kill.
    4)
    M-aero and Weavile are offensive checks that cannot switch into it,while having the power to force out Serp. While Crobat and Torn and the other grass resist are counters that can switch into it to tank a hit, so I would prefer the reader notice the difference. In addition, the listing does not response to Xdevo's important point "It's pretty difficult to list something actually counters (all different possible sets of) Serperior that isn't in one way crippled by one of the common moves it uses, which is the biggest issue when facing Serperior." As every mon listed either doesn't like to get a para being a fast attacker, or doesn't like to get hit by knock off, or are not really used (chesnaught), with the exception of amoongus (a true counter to all sets most likely).


    With me wasting some time addressing you on some not that important issue, still have fun posting more solid points, such as some direct responses to the above pro-ban point in italics.

    --------
    A little of my own toughts:
    Up to now, what mons does what seem relatively clear:
    the faster offensive checks that can force it out (M-aero, Weavile, M-Bee and quite some more), the faster switch-in that doesn't like to get para (Scarf Jira, Torn, Crobat and alike), the slower switch-in that could have problem with Sub-seed (Defensive Jira, Blissey),the slower switch-in that doesn't like knock off (Doublade and Latias), and an almost true counter to all sets(amoongus).

    Z-hyper beam sounds really an interesting lure. Although it can't hit through amoongus by Leaf Storm on the switch + Z hyper beam the next turn, it can do so with some previous damage, and with that combo it can actually break through Latias etc.

    It seems to me that Serp is not outrageously hard to stop, but indeed it annoys many of the things that want to switch into it with a fear of being crippled in a certain way (listed above).
     
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  11. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Serperior is hereby banned in SM UU.
     
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