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[Metagame] Suspect Discussion-Tornadus-T

Discussion in 'Gen 7 UU' started by Xdevo, May 1, 2017.

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  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Discuss the possibility of Tornadus-T being banned from the SM UU tier.
    Use this thread to discuss Torandus-T's impact on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it is capable of using, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on the suspect and if it should or shouldn't be banned from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against the suspect in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    Users that are unsure about suspect posting are encouraged to check this guide out.
     
  2. Valhalla

    Valhalla Banned

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    Tornadus-T is undoubtedly broken, and the fact that it is still in this tier is quite surprising. Its ability to run multiple sets (av torn, lorb, flynium z) causes its checks to vary. Its ability to run mixed, or special sets, makes it hard to check. Its ability to u-turn out of threats while healing off lorb damage, or even residual damage, causes it to be a hard pokemon to kill. For thees reasons I believe it needs to be banned.

    On a side note, Pidgeot-Mega needs to be looked at, hurricane + workup + heatwave has little counters in this tier (unaware clef, bliss) both which get overun by dual flying and hurricane confusion is problematic.
     
  3. JayThaMessiah

    JayThaMessiah New Member

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    Tornadus-T is no doubt a great mon with the ability Regenerate keeping it healthy and with it's great 121 base speed alongside U-turn it can not only switch out on a counter allowing it to get some chip damage in the process, it also works as an excellent pivot. But even with all this working it for it I don't think it's broken to the point of needing a ban even in the current UU meta as early as it is there are plenty of checks and counters (some still unreleased mega-Amphoros/Manectric) that I've ran into and used while testing Tornadus-T in the meta, not to mention it's main stab and most powerful move have a terrible 70 acc leaving most hit or misses up to luck and the ever looming SR is also a problem if your not running a hazard remover/it gets KO'd. The main two sets ran on Tornadus-T are Life Orb and Assault Vest both of which always run for the most part these 3 moves Hurricane/Heat Wave/U-turn, the last move is a toss up between Knock Off/Superpower depending on the coverage the player has in mind for the set. When it comes to any set Tornadus-T runs the 3 mons I've ran into that have forced me into a tough spot are Mega Aerodactyl and Rotom-Heat which all can safely switch into any of moves Tornadus-T has and threaten it out or risk KO and in Mega-Aerodactyl case also set up or recover. Even if I or my opponent were to U-turn or switch out into something else it's easy for Rotom-Heat to also Volt Switch or Burn the incoming counter/mon, in the case of Mega-Aerodactyl it hits like a truck and with it's coverage even a mon who may counter it will take a good of damage itself, likewise if you're not careful and try to switch out Pursuit will KO if you're at low enough health (252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 141-166 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO). Besides these mons the only other switch ins I've encountered that are well used in the current meta have been Snorlax, Empoleon, Blissey, and Muk-Alola, although it should be noted even though Muk-Alola can take a hit from Hurricane/Superpower it can only switch in and out if it has a cleric to keep it healthy with it's only recover move being rest and losing it's AV due to Knock Off will further it's damage by Hurricane. Also the latter three must be worry of Superpower as they can 2hko but if Snorlax has a curse or two up it's fine and all have great recovery moves in Rest/Soft-boiled/Roost so they can stall out the Superpower set once they've taken a hit. So in my opinion I'm against the ban for the moment.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
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  4. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Yeh I also agree that Torndadus-T isn't really that banworthy atm. Jay had already mentioned post of the points I wanted to cover but while Assault Vest sets are great for blanketing the majority of special attackers in the tier alongside Regenerator, the weakness to common offensive types such as Rock, Ice, and Electric make it not too difficult to revenge kill on top of the weakness to SR, meaning that threats such as Mega Aerodactlyl, Weavile, Choice Scarf Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Victini can all comfortably revenge kill it. It also trades power for bulk, since Assault Vest sets struggle to break through common defensive mons such as Clefable, Mew, Rotom-W, Hippowdown, and Specially Defensive Gliscor without relying on confusion hax. Life Orb sets have an easier time doing this, but then it struggles to check threats that the Assault Vest set is capable of such as Keldeo, Primarina, and Nidoking. While Tornadus-T's great coverage, blistering speed, and adequate bulk alongside Regenerator makes it one of the best mons the metagame, I don't believe its enough to make it banworthy imo.

    Do Not Ban
     
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  5. Valhalla

    Valhalla Banned

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    Rotom-Wash is gone (a counter to this pokemon) and thus I think some reevaluation needs to be done in regards this mon. To argue against some of the other No Ban arguments; gknot, hp ice, and uturn are all surefire ways to counter act an check that you can name. The only mon that is really a boon is weavile, but even then it turns to a 50/50 between pursuit and icicle crash. Also we need to suspect pidgeot-mega on the same grounds as special bird spam being overpowered
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  6. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    If you want a Mega Pidgeot suspect, post in the potential suspect thread with an actual reason (not "special bird spam being overpowered" with literally no argument behind it at all).
     
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  7. JayThaMessiah

    JayThaMessiah New Member

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    Even with Rotom-W gone from UU Tornadus-T still isn't overpowered or ban worthy and all those things you just named have already been debunked. Even if Superpower isn't a guarantee against special defensive mons like Blissey as they run counter or can just heal it off. Even alolomola is becoming a decent check to Tornadus-T lol it's just not OP as you want it to be.
     
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  8. E.T.

    E.T. Proud Member Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Even if Mega Ampharos and Mega Manectric might be in UU in the future, they are not UU now, so they shouldn't be mentioned.

    None of these can switch into a Life Orb boosted Superpower after Stealth Rock damage except for Alolan Muk, and Alolan Muk lacks reliable recovery.

    Mega Aerodactyl and Rotom-H, however, are solid answers to Tornadus-T for the reasons mentioned.

    I think this is an important point to highlight. On paper, Tornadus-T can be very threatening with a STAB Hurricane that can potentially confuse what it can't KO; however, when I've tried using Tornadus-T, Hurricane rarely hits anything when I need it to.

    Revenge killing generally isn't the most reliable way to stop something, since Tornadus-T can just switch out (unless it is in Pursuit range) and come back later. In terms of switching into Tornadus-T, Mega Aerodactyl is the only one that can do it comfortably, as Weavile is too frail and the Choice Scarf users would rather not have their Choice Scarf removed by Knock Off.

    The problem is that you don't know which Tornadus-T you are dealing with until you've scouted it. If you switch Clefable into a Life Orb Hurricane, then you may be in a pickle. While it is true that fat stuff has a better time dealing with the Assault Vest set, they are still susceptible to Knock Off and confusion from repeated Hurricanes. I think it has already been mentioned, but just to be clear, Rotom-W and Keldeo moved up to OU in the last tier shift.

    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-Therian Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 408-481 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 273-321 (56.7 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Neither of these can safely switch into the Life Orb set.

    For other checks, I think Raikou deserves to be mentioned, but it lacks reliable recovery and takes heavy damage from Life Orb Superpower. I'm leaning towards a ban because when everything goes well for Tornadus-T, it can be quite hard to stop. Access to Knock Off and Superpower can make special walls think twice about switching into Hurricane, and even when Tornadus-T can be walled, it can sometimes RNG its way to victory with confusion caused by Hurricane. In practice, Hurricane misses can make Tornadus-T risky to use, but odds are still in favor of the Tornadus-T user.
     
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  9. JayThaMessiah

    JayThaMessiah New Member

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    You make some valid points E.T. and while some of these mons require scouting it's not hard that at all. Granted it can uturn out as mentioned but that's the ploy of every fast Mon with uturn like M-Beedrill. But as I previously stated most people don't run Superpower they use it for it's special attacks I've even seen a Z hidden power water for Rotom-Heat/Aerodactyl (mega or not) a few times lol *cough* new meta lol, but even with Superpower you won't OHKO and with pursuit trappers becoming more frequent in the likes of Krookadile/Aerodactyl, Tornadus-T is naturally frail and so at -1 it stands no chance of escaping without being OHKO. Also while we're at the mention of checks and counters I myself missed some and ran into while still testing this bird-genie, as E.T. mention Raikou is easily able to switch into Tornadus-T but like Alola-Muk it's not bulky enough to take repeated Superpower hits with no way of healing outside of rest or a cleric. Mons like Mantine and Mandibuzz can take all hits even hurricanes and heal them off with roost, Torkoal (yes the fire-derp turtle) as dumb as this sounds I was skeptical and laughed at first player to switch this in on my Tornadus-T but every time I sent my Tornadus-T in here it came with drought pretty much making Hurricane 50acc and as we all know the chances of that hitting is slim to none forcing me to switch and giving them a chance to set up SR (in the case if SR already being up either lava plume and most likely burn or toxic/yawn then switch out), Umbreon while being able to take a hurricane has to be slightly worry of Superpower if it has prior damage (at 0 def w/ 252hp takes 62% high roll/ drops to 42% -1 high roll) but after one hit it can easily wish, protect and then if the person is dumb enough to stay in foul play, Cresselia can set up on Tornadus-T if given the correct opportunity as even Hurricane only does 44% on a high role. All these mentioned don't have to worry about any set or high rolls, maybe confusion but as stated it's all on luck as you have to hit first. But I do agree slightly more now with E.T. after reading his thoughts it's a pain to predict and stop if you don't know what to expect or have nothing to stop it but the same could be said with something like Mega Beedrill/Aerodactyl/Pidgeot, so I'm still against the ban as it's not really broken.
     
  10. Valhalla

    Valhalla Banned

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    alot of ur argument rly doesnt make sense. we arent banning this because its a one mon show that gets past its checks like xurk. this a mon that is able to pivot out of its checks, while gaining hp in the process, has an extensive range of moves for coverage, and simply doesnt die.
     
  11. JayThaMessiah

    JayThaMessiah New Member

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    Okay firstly Xurkatree was and never will be a counter to Tornadus, any of its forms T or not. Also if I'm understanding you correctly (which took me awhile with your spelling) any Mon that can pivot, has a wide move pool (also Tornadus-T only has 5 moves that are used Hurricane/Uturn/Knock Off/Heat Wave/Superpower so not that wide at all or enough coverage to), and regain health is a tough Mon to take down? That makes no sense and by your rebuttal I guess Mienshao is a tough Mon to deal with that just won't die lol. Sorry I'm just not seeing the big deal with Tornadus-T sure it's good but broken, I'm not sold yet and your reply didn't do any better to bring to light the ways or situations it could be like E.T. did in his post.
     
  12. Valhalla

    Valhalla Banned

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    I dont think you understood anything I said, and quite honestly it gets cumbersome responding to such red herrings. Torn-T doesnt have any reliable answers in this tier, because of access to uturn + regen allowing it to switch out unscathed (only excepetion being weavile and pursuit which is a 50/50, not to mention weavile being frail) and its plethora of coverage moves which include superpower, fblast, heatwave, knock off, taunt, uturn, hp ice and not to mention the additions of z moves. when i brought up xurk i meant it in the sense of the two suspects are very different and require different criterion in banning as one mon doesnt die and hits hard while the other one is a nuke. also idrk how bringing up my spelling supports anything u say, going back to your red herring, not to mention i spell/speak fine, albeit pedantic at times. i know sm uu, and every uu for tht matter like the back of my hand, and exemplify this in my playing. ive been apart of suspects for various mons (chand, volc etc) and i think its better u just agree with me instead of making baseless claims. idk how ur theorymonning helps discussion at all and if anything it just holds up the suspect of an unhealthy mon. if u want lets bo3 po uu on showdown (it has a working replay feature) and i can show u, and everyone else disagreeing why torn t is unhealthy. maybe you just play unexperience ppl, or you yourself are unexperienced, either way responding to such a convoluted argument was draining asf, so dont make me do it again.
     
  13. JayThaMessiah

    JayThaMessiah New Member

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    (Sigh) Okay I'm going to make my post more simple because you really just missed the whole point. Saying "it won't die" or "it's just unhealthy" without stating why with reasoning and legit calculations isn't a debunking the statement and facts to my or the other guy who posted previously in the suspect discussion and does not help your case at all. In fact without E.T.'s post, which by the way had everything including said calculations and facts to back up his own statement, I'd still say most of you are just poor at team building and just biased towards your own opinions. Now back to this refusing to die thing you keep saying, that's just absurd as everyone knows Tornadus-T is quite frail even taking a resisted hit deals a good amount of damage since this Mons primary use it to hit and run no one puts bulk into it. Also I'd like to touch on this statement "Torn-T doesnt have any reliable answers in this tier, because of access to uturn + regen allowing it to switch out unscathed (only excepetion being weavile and pursuit which is a 50/50, not to mention weavile being frail)" that is false sir/ma'am. Mons that can safely switch in/come in after you've lost a mon to KO pursuit-trap wise Aerodactyl (mega or not) and Alola-Muk are as good as it gets and they are used quite frequently, hell even the basic Krookadile sets do the job. Not getting into checks/switch insurance as I've already stated it in previous post. I really don't see the point in bringing up showdown as the tier metas are different (that's like me bringing up Battle Spot and my recordings of me owning Tornadus-T), whether I battled a bad player or not I tested it and that's how I feel about this month so don't try and the player I've battled in UU all gave a good run for my money but the deciding factor or threat wasn't Tornadus-T and when I used it was still lack luster and I prefer mega Aero/Pidg(rip bird Jesus they'll be coming for you next and I can't save you), but most importantly don't tell someone just to agree with you in order to get your way if you can't sway my way or thinking with your own facts and post then leave it up to the UU board to decide the ban and let whatever happens happen.
     
  14. Valhalla

    Valhalla Banned

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    Because saying im an incompetent team builder really helps your case, not to mention I'm a proven player in this tier.... you literally admit in your argument dude that the best way to beat torn is with pursuit. you do realize pursuit is a 50/50 and a torn can either uturn out of krook/torn/weav if lacking a coverage move to hit hard, switch, or stay in. in actuality in most cases, it isn't even a 50/50, because if you don't click pursuit u lose another mon, as quoting from urself "mons that can safely switch in/come in after you've lost a mon to KO pursuit-trap wise Aerodactyl". basically this thing has 0 counters because of its extensive coverage, and then can proceed to fire off a move/moves to ko a mon until u bring in its "check" all while having the ability to gain health in the process do to its ability. speaking quite frankly, i think you are incompetent in this tier (a fair assumption given your responses) and i will not respond to anything else you say because it seems as if you would rather be ignorant, and have your same line of reasoning, then actually see another perspective. and yeh ik this is a personal attack, u started them first so.....
     
  15. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Tornadus-T is hereby banned in UU.



    I want to give an actual good reason for this, since it was somewhat contentious and many of the reasons in the thread were bad or poorly stated.

    Tornadus-T's most powerful asset is Regenerator, which makes Tornadus-T one of the longest lasting offensive threats in the tier. So, while Tornadus-T's moves have serious drawbacks (70% acc, dropping stats), it will be given ample opportunities throughout a match to attempt to break through walls or bulky cores. So despite a few counters and numerous checks (Mega Aerodactyl, Slowking, SpDef Clefable, Klefki, Alolan Muk, any Blissey with Protect, Kou, Cress, etc), Tornadus-T can outlast almost all of them. Along with this, it supplies offensive support with Knock Off, U-turn, and potent wallbreaking with Taunt or Superpower. There's also the no-item physical set, which is still pretty decent and can throw a lot of the traditional checks for a loop at the cost of extra power against bulky teams.

    Therefore, it's not that Tornadus-T doesn't have enough counters or checks within the metagame, but that it has the ability to outlast many of them erstwhile providing offensive support for a team.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
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