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[Metagame] Suspect Discussion: Xurkitree

Discussion in 'Gen 7 UU' started by Xdevo, May 29, 2017.

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  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Discuss the possibility of Xurkitree being banned from the SM UU tier.
    Use this thread to discuss Xurkitree's impact on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it is capable of using, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on the suspect and if it should or shouldn't be banned from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against the suspect in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    Users that are unsure about suspect posting are encouraged to check this guide out.
     
  2. Valhalla

    Valhalla Banned

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    Xurkitree having access to z hypno, tail glow and grass/ice coverage moves warrants a quick ban imo. Guessing between scarf/z hypno set can cost you the game as evidenced in the replay below. Its simply too much for the UU metagame

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-577415785

    I successfully bluff scarf and thus sweep. Scarf is also a potent threat as the boost ability along with the 173 base special attack is too much.

    for these reasons, a ban seems necessary
     
  3. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    You literally never bluffed a scarf in that entire game, and there was absolutely no reason to think that was a scarf Xurk; he sacked the thing that allowed him to do anything with Stoutland for no reason, while allowing a bunch of free turns for no reason afterwards. Even then, Mega Aero outspeeds +1 Xurk so he could've revenge killed if he had EQ.

    That specific log just shows you outpredicting a guy twice, who then overpredicted, then you took a 60% chance for a sweep. There's plenty of things that given that much can easily sweep a team.
     
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  4. Valhalla

    Valhalla Banned

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    Just a few things to nitpick here. Turn 4 I switch Xurkitree into M-Aero. I do this for a number of reasons, scarf is a fair assumption, his team had trouble with birds (if its spd hippo, z talonflame/staraptor is a problem, while if hes physdef hippo, mpidgeot and torn t are issues. Thus its a fair assumption to assume that some speed is eschewed for hp to tank flying hits better. this bluff allowed the op to assume scarf and gknot at +1 doesnt kill stoutland. i dont think u can doubt the potentness of xurk when it gets free boosts through ability, has a decent speed tier (dismantles any balance teams), and access to tailglow. idk why ur so opposed to bannig this when u were a main proponent for banning serp while this is way more powerful
     
  5. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    The only plausible reason for your opponent to switch out in this scenario is the lack of EQ, not the lack of speed. Who the hell would drop speed on their mega aero if xurkitree is in the tier? Any competent player would drop attack in case they really wanted to bump their hp up a bit, therefore I really do not think its a "fair" assumption to believe your opponent dropped speed. He lacked EQ and that's that (or maybe he didn't know speed tiers, who knows). Regardless, its just a replay and it's not a really strong basis for a ban argument, and yet it seemed to be the crux of your post, which is why it was critiqued by xdevo.

    I'd also add that it's funny how you assume that xdevo is opposed to banning xurkitree, something he never implied in any of his posts in this thread. A critique of your post doesn't mean he's taking position in the debate, he just wants a decent discussion/arguments to determine wether or not xurkitree is banworthy. Try not to misinterpret someone's claims!

    I've no opinion on Xurkitree as of right now so sorry if this is off topic, but I thought I'd clarify a bit.
     
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  6. snaga

    snaga .

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    PO Trainer Name:
    snaga
    Xurk should be banned bc it can ohko my blissey after a tail glow and that's just not fair
     
  7. Vortchjika Lou

    Vortchjika Lou New Member

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    In my experience xurkitree(Christmas Tree Light) if played well could have the potential to sweep entire team but it have several counters. Yes Xurkitree having access to z-hypno, tail glow, grass/ice moves can be frustrating mons to deal with it have fair counter such as scarfed mons like victini (and the other), Mega aero (like xdevo explain before) and Mega Beedrill, strong priority attacker such as weavile and Mega Absol (and other too). As for z-hypno there is a possibility that the hypnosis is missed and your xurkitree is damaged(or killed) right before revenge killer shows up (i don't know about scarf xurk because i never meet before in battle). Plus once xurkitree gain it's +1 it couldn't switch because it can lose its boost and if there is no or wrong timing of xurkitree being placed it looks like a free delivery. So in my experience xurkitree is not broken and should not be banned but need an exact prediction to counter it. Hopefully my opinion could be useful.
     
  8. Vortchjika Lou

    Vortchjika Lou New Member

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    Sorry to post again but after a few moments of testing i have come into realise these 2 facts:

    1. i'm using modest instead of timid xurk and that's why mega beedrill can outspeed it
    2. i didn't consider z-electric terrain and tail glow because i'm using z-hypno, t-bolt, dazzling, hp (ice) because i didn't want a slot move to be wasted for stat rising move such as tail glow (reason that it's beast boost allow xurk to have +1 every kill)

    i'm still leaning towards not ban because pokemon such as clefable can tank xurkitree +2 thunderbolt with unaware (i did not calculate if electric terrain is active) and amonggus can tank it's hp ice even with crit.
    hopefully my opinion coul be useful again.
     
  9. Valhalla

    Valhalla Banned

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    i think u forgot how move is strong as fuck and kills clef while amoon isnt taking a 3+ hp ice from xurk

    +3 252 SpA Xurkitree Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 338-398 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and thats assuming 252 252 calm which is a horrible set for amoon imo because u lose stoping power on loom and physical waters (swampert mega, ferral etc) . standard sets kos w/o rocks.

    252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 385-454 (97.7 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    i dont think u realise any set it runs can be tailored to beat a "check" bar mayb maero which is why it needs to b banned
     
  10. Vortchjika Lou

    Vortchjika Lou New Member

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    First thing first, this is based on my experience battling in UU using my own team. My team doesn't use stealth rock so i didn't calculate the stealth rock damage.

    Secondly that i calculate xurk vs. amonggus using unboosted xurk. The reason is usually when xurk is placed it would use z-powered move to boost it's speed first before it's boost it's SpA using it's ability or using tail glow.
     
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  11. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Just chiming in real quick, Stealth Rock should always, no matter what be assumed when talking about what attacks a Pokémon can take. They're far too useful, available on a myriad of mons, and impactful by themselves on the game to ignore, even if you personally choose not to use them.

    The only things this doesn't apply to are carriers of Magic Guard and Magic Bounce, since they aren't affected by any hazards and should be able to deny the opponent hazards with enough consistency to matter, respectively. And possibly Pokémon who are resistant to them, but even then sometimes they are still a deciding factor in whether the monster in question lives.
     
  12. JayThaMessiah

    JayThaMessiah New Member

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    I don't really care for Xurkitree but truth be told it is a mitch to counter if you're not prepared for it like most mons but even mons that are great at sponging up SpAtk damage have a hard time dealing with this mon after a tail Glow or boost. The only thing that keeps Xurkitree down is it's speed below average you could argue a choice scarf but that hinders it into a one trick pony and the boost via Z moves are what makes it a threat in both Z Electric Terrain/Hypnosis ,both of which benefits it greatly Terrain increasing it's Electric moves by 50% and Hypnosis putting things to sleep (if hypnosis hits). Hypnosis is the easier of the two to deal with if you have a mon who resist it's core moves Thunderbolt and the second either being HP Ice leaving it susceptible to quag or energy ball giving Gliscor a chance to switch in and deal with it (however if it has a tail Glow up there's nothing Gliscor can do). Now to Electric Terrain, this set is just monstrous able to take down unaware Clefable 2hko and Blissey while able to take a hit 252+ SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 232-274 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery is fodder for a tail glow set up +3 252+ SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 577-679 (80.8 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and can't manage this set so you're forced to sack a mon and if you don't have a hard hitting priority mon, something that outspeeds it like Mega Aerodactyl, or switch in with a focus sash and not have to worry about hazards like Alakazam it's pretty much over. Hell even Rotom-Heat a mon that resist all it's move fall to it if you let it get 1 tail glow off/electric terrain 3 252+ SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat in Electric Terrain: 258-303 (84.8 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (63.8 - 75.5%) at +3 without terrain up there's just no real legit answer I have to Xurkitree, you have to essentially kill it before it set ups or else. So in my opinion this is just too much for the meta and I support the ban.
     
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  13. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Xurkitree is hereby banned in UU.
     
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