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[Metagame] Baton Pass in SM Ubers

Discussion in 'Gen 7 Ubers' started by Mysterious M, Jun 5, 2017.

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  1. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Discuss the possibility of Baton Pass being banned from the SM Ubers tier.

    Use this thread to discuss the impact that Baton Pass has on the metagame. State your opinion on the suspect and if it should or shouldn't be banned from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.
    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against the suspect in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    The thread will close Sunday June 11th, and the results will be implemented immediately, affecting Ubers Major League Week 2.​
     
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  2. Lacus Clyne

    Lacus Clyne This might get unpleasant!

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    I'd like to be a Unicorn.
     
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  3. fsk

    fsk Kept Hacking Tier Leader Server Moderator Tier Leader Server Moderator

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    Wrote these stuff several days back but forgot to post since busy, and still busy so might get back to edit for corrections etc.

    Why BP should be dealt with?
    According to the Ubers Tiering Policy (Ubers will not ban to preserve metagame balance, and will only make bans to preserve a playable competitive metagame), I will basically evaluate how baton pass affect the metageame to an extent such that it hinders the game from being played in an enjoyable manner.

    1) Limited Counterplay and heavily matchup based.
    It is evident that BP strategy does have checks and counters out there, and many of the said checks and counters (be it Taunt/Haze/Heart Swap or PseudoHaze, Ditto, Unware or priority) would appear shaky or situational based on what sort of the counter-counterplay the BP team prepares for. Numerous complaints about the BP strategy is about how it simply win by matchup. The current version of SM Ubers is already heavily matchup-based and it would be beneficial to alleviate it.
    Potential disagreement to this point might include arguments about some stall teams, or many games in general, is heavily decided by matchup. While matchup management is part of the game, to prepare counterplay for BP teams is indeed a burden for teambuilds that restricted by so many threats already.

    2) Disruption of synergy: Gambling on a single win condition
    The recent BP heat in Sun/Moon meta is basically not a full BP chain, but a setting-up BP user and multiple potential receiver. It is already mentioned that, Extreme Evoboost teams depend very heavily on a single win condition in whether the boost is successfully passed out to a sweeper, which, if disrupted, almost guarantees a loss for its user. However, it is also worth noting that, for a lot of teams out there, a successfully done pass almost means a win. Such Gambling indeed hinders the game from being played in an enjoyable manner.

    3) 50-50s and Inconsistency
    For Thimo's Evoboost team, or actually Hypnosis/Sing + Setting up in general, many time the game is decided by some 50-50s. It is not like the more skilled or more knowledgable player will be able to get these right, rather most of the cases have been brought out before and there is really no choice other than guessing a 50-50 in those situations (Taunt then switch VS Taunt consecutively, Evoboost first VS sing first, switch to Phazer first VS switch to sleep fodder first, etc.) For baton pass teams in general the 50-50s it creates might need a case by case description.

    In addition to the 50-50s generated in plays, there are numerous replay out there about how a single roll on Eevee, a single sing miss or hit, or the sleep turn duration would decide a whole game. Note that I'm not saying a gravity boosted Sing, since in many neutral matchups the Eevee team can still get a win if Sing hits when gravity is not there. The high risk and high reward feature makes the BP strategy inconsistent. A standard of a good metagame is that the better player should win more often than not and BP strategy's inconsistency actually makes many game the other way around.

    Note that some smogon people characterize BP as "no-brainer" and requires no skill which I think is very inaccurate. I always respect the original creators of such strategies and teams since they actually put into some really creative works. However, I have to say that after being spammed in major tour games BP is no longer something elegant or creative, and rather most of the cases that one team will encounter is brought out and evaluated already, leaving the button-clicking as "no-brainers" in some sense.


    Some replays of BP in SM Ubers

    https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-583222793
    https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-573957723
    https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ubers-263186
    in UPL
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-569298050
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-581125706
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ubers-277744
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ubers-283884
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-576467270
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ubers-288522
    (There are successful ones and unsuccessful ones included in these replays.)

    How it should be dealt with?
    Since the most common BP team is indeed the Eeveepass, one possible solution is to ban eevee Z stone to deal the least collateral damage. Whether this is the right action to take will depend on how other BP teams, be it BP Chain or some other SmashPassing/Geopassing, affect the meta. Currently Eeveepass outshines the others and I'm not experienced enough with other BP teams to speak for them in Gen 7 yet. But it is likely that all these BP Strategies are deemed as "heavily matchup based, depending on 50-50s and RNGs in sleep move hitting/duration," a full ban on BP might be necessary.
    If SmashPassing is acceptable while BP chain and Eeveepass needs to be dealt with, it is possible to ban chain and Eeeveepass.

    So basically A) ban Eevee Z only B) ban Baton Pass totally C) Restrict Baton Pass to one per team while banning Eevee Z. All these are possible code-wise but I'm not fully ready to pick one solution.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  4. TheUltimateBOBO

    TheUltimateBOBO New Member

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    Since I'm pretty much the face of SM baton pass, I'll leave my opinion on it. It isn't a mindless playstyle, and it requires thought. Every single person that used the team, used it very wrong in my eyes. The opponent can easily beat any evopasser with the correct plays. The real issue in the current SM meta is me. Vouch to ban user: Thimo.
     
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  5. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger Tier Leader Tier Leader

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