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[Announcement] Dugtrio Suspect

Discussion in 'Gen 7 Discussion' started by Finchinator, Aug 19, 2017.

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  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Dugtrio being banned from the SM OU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Dugtrio’s effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, possible partners, and team suppor.. State your opinion on whether you think it should be banned or if it should stay in SM OU.

    All opinions are valid, and discussion amongst players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your judgment is backed with sound reasoning and validation coming from experience having played with / against Dugtrio in the tier. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken”, and do not make arguments via theorymoning.

    Check out this Guide to Suspect Posting before getting started if you are unsure of anything. Happy posting!
     
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  2. 49.

    49. Active Member

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    nice thread finchinator. you're very handsome and good, i appreciate you
     
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  3. beforedawn

    beforedawn Active Member

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    Counterargument to littlelucario:

    "Fat balance/stall are way more consistent than offense in this meta for a reason and that reason needs to go."

    Wait, are you saying here that Dugtrio is the reason fat balance/stall is more consistent than offense?

    That seems contradictory, and I'm not sure whether I can see I can agree with you on that. It seems that Gen 6 meta seems to be mostly a defensive one. However, Dugtrio's historic role is meant to be a defense dismantler. Poison Pokemon have gained more prominence than they ever have been and finally have a place as defensive behemoths. That said, they ought to have counters, and Dugtrio is one such.

    But is Dugtrio "broken?" Is the inability to switch out your Toxapex completely debilitating to the game, calls games before team selection, and polarizes the team-building process? If Toxapex opts to use an item that cracks egg all over Dugtrio's face and turns it into a liability for Dugtrio's team, is Toxapex going out of its way too much and shooting itself in the foot to try and get the one-up on Dugtrio? Is it a terrifying force that bludgeons the meta significantly more severely than it has in the past?

    Dugtrio most certainly enjoyed a revival. The amazing ATK buff and unprecedented power (whether practically or psychologically) that can come from Z-Earthquake have generously magnified its role as a trap revenger. Its usage of Memento means that it cannot be danced upon as it did upon the mon that just got trapped. And, of course, its power in Arena Trap is what makes it literally a trapper, making it un-counterable. Or so it seems. In practice, Dugtrio is not as uncounterable as it seems. There are a growing list of Pokemon that are completely immune to Arena Trap. By the same logic, you can't even say that Dugtrio is a fantastic counter itself -- merely a fantastic check. Dugtrio's nonexistent defensive capabilities means it needs to stand on its nonexistent tiptoes to milk all its worth off its turns. It can't even counter Toxapex because Scald slaps it silly. Speaking of Toxapex, 21.95% of all Toxapex on the ladder run Eject Button or Shed Shell. The single most popular set, which comprises of 15.71% of Toxapex usage, uses Black Sludge (which means that any variations that use Lefties/Sludge account for another 60%, but also keep in mind that statistic includes lot of casual or novelty sets). This situation is even more difficult if it chooses to forgo its Focus Sash, which is in of itself unreliable as a mid-game item. I also took at a look at the top 30 OU mons (not counting Dugtrio itself) and I reckon that out of those 30, there are seven that Dugtrio itself checks and reliably beats in a 1v1 scenario (7/30 = 23%). (Those seven are Tapu Lele, Heatran, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Volcarona, Magnezone, and Alolan Marowak.)

    Yes, Dugtrio can serve as an emergency out against wall mons and glass cannon mons under 120 Speed, but I am unsure if it is at such a grievous magnitude warranting its exile from the tier. As valuable a role Dugtrio can serve, it requires an awkward situation to enter battle and sometimes to exit it as well. I'm not going to state outright whether it ought to be banned or not. However, I will go out on a limb and suggest that perhaps a key reason for its prominence is in direct response to a risen popularity in usage of its direct prey (meaning Dugtrio is more antimeta than it is meta, compare to Magneton of Gen 3).

    Also, thank you finchinator you sexy devil you.
     
  4. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    After a few months of development of the metagame, Dugtrio finds an already stabilized place in which it can support several teams by removing a wide range of threats.

    The mole who once generated controversy over his dependence on Focus Sash, now proves he does not need this item to be broken. New options like Choice Scarf and especially Groudium Z have made Dugtrio extremely effective.

    Dugtrio is used exclusively because of Arena Trap, no one would use it for being fast, strong, or for any role like sweeper, for example. Dugtrio is an unparalleled piece in metagame, and honestly, arguments like "Zero Bulk", lack of synergy or whatever, do not even make sense to me.
    Dugtrio just needs to be in battle and do his job and can be used as a discard later.

    The ability to prevent the switch is always controversial, but with 120 Base Speed, 100 Base atk and Arena Trap, Dugtrio has a very broad playing field. Removing your opponent's counterplay for various win condiction options.

    Choice Scarf is a viable niche to remove even faster threats and break the opponent's offensive momentum, such as Tapu Koko and Mega Manectric (which is very much appreciated by Suicune, for example).
    Although he is also able to defeat 1+ Volcarona with Stone Edge, and still abuse Memento.

    Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-296109

    Replay of the Smogon World Cup, where it exemplifies what I said. Dugtrio removes the offensive pivot, then abuses Memento to take the offensive moment of Mega-Gyarados, forcing a switch and resuming the momentum of the game.

    Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-611940346

    Another replay where Dugtrio defeats Mega Manectric, in addition to using Pursuit against Latios.

    Focus Sash Dugtrio is our old acquaintance of ORAS, where the item allows to use 1HP + Reversal, amplifying its field of action, besides being able to survive any hit to be able to defeat in 2 hits the opposing Pokémon.

    Finally the main problem, Groudium Z. With Groudium Z, Dugtrio manages to reach a large part of the metagame in 1 Hit KO, even with neutral damage. Screech and Substitute are powerful weapons to lower the Defense of your opponents and avoid a Sucker Punch.

    In practice, Dugtrio is able to reach his targets in various ways, whether with a Double Switch, Volt Turn, Revenge Killer or the infamous Eject Button.
    Once with his target without being able to leave, Dugtrio uses Screech and then Tectonic Rage, being able to defeat even Tapu Fini, who can not KO with Moonblast or even Scald in the Sun (because the core with Charizard Y is common) and Clefable.

    Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-611658535

    Smogon OLT replay.

    Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-299164

    Replay of the Smogon World Cup, Latios with Eject Button allowing Dugtrio to safely enter Heatran. Notice the coverage of Dugtrio to hit on Pokémon that are not Arena Trap targets.

    Please note that nothing I have said so far is exclusive to Stall. Dugtrio's ability to perform goes far beyond Stall. Core with Charizard Y forces Toxapex to use Shed Shell, limiting its item recovery, and preventing it from switching on potential Knock Off Pokémon like Tangrowth and Weavile efficiently.

    On Stall, Dugtrio is still the same nightmare of ORAS, perhaps worse. Discouraging the use of Stallbreaker like Hoopa-U, Band TTar and Gardevoir-M, while limiting Tapu Lele and Heatran to use Shed Shell and can not enter in front of M-Sableye or another Knock Off user.

    The argument that without Dugtrio Stall would lose viability does not please me, as in the same way that Stallbreaker is removed, Dugtrio forces Shed Shell into Toxapex, in addition to defeating Chansey / Clefable, breaking a pillar of the stall team.
    At the same time, without Dugtrio, Stall could use other options like Jirachi or Muk-Alola to deal with threats, such as Tapu Lele. Which are just not used because they are equally vulnerable to Dugtrio.

    Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-612113474

    Replay by Smogon OLT. Error in the build from side to side, what matters is the option of one of the players to use Skill Swap Chansey, to be able to escape Dugtrio. Sacrificing a precious Slot that could be used with some useful moves, like Stealth Rock or Heal Bell.

    Although it reduces its main niche, Dugtrio is still able to use Aerial Ace + Flynium Z; Defeating even Heracross-M, as this Smogon World Cup replay shows.

    Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-607800259

    Discouragement is the best word to define Dugtrio's presence in the metagame. Ground affects 5 types of game in super effective, in addition to Pokémon that even with neutral damage can not stand Tectonic Rage.
    The "popularity" of Shed Shell is actually the only way to have some counterplay for an element that is currently broken in the layer, item is a vital part of the strategy of the build, and Pokémon like Toxapex, Tapu Lele Stallbreaker and others are only losing some of the potential with it. I can not understand how "healthy" limit the ability of multiple Pokémon just to avoid being trapped in battle.

    Some bonus replays, showing how Dugtrio shatters teams, removing responses or even win conditions from the opponent.

    Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-609747850
    Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-297330
    Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-612225057
    Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-612418220
    Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-614132594
    Http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-614145438

    In conclusion, the restriction on teambuild and the lack of a legitimate counterplay, make Dugtrio an extremely negative point.
    The qualities and efficiency of Dugtrio exceed the acceptable for the health of the SM OU metagame.

    I strongly believe that without Dugtrio in the tier the teambuild will be much more pleasant and creative, and the metagame more competitive.
    So Dugtrio needs to be banned to SM Ubers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
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  5. Edna

    Edna Trick Or Sweets? Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    The post above sums pretty well the current situation of SM OU. Unlike Magnet Pull that only traps Steel types, Arena Trap has always been an issue for teams that rely on bulky steel such as Heatran or poison types such as Toxapex, add to that the ability to get rid of Chansey with Screech and Z move.

    However I feel like we should be banning the ability Arena Trap, likewise we did with Shadow Tag as we can always replace Dugtrio with Trappinch or Diglett ( looks to be gimmicky but hey, Trappinch has the same base atk than Duggy)
     
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  6. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    Initially I tried to avoid talking about Arena Trap, since Suspect is about Dugtrio. However, I feel that it is impossible to completely separate the two things, because Arena Trap is the real problem and precisely the only reason why Dugtrio is used. Dugtrio is just the best user of this ability.

    We have a precedent in ORAS (Shadow Tag / Gothitelle) where it has been proven that banning the ability is the best option.
    Diglett and Trapinch are NFE Pokémon who probably can not use the Scarf or Groudium Z sets. However, I want to develop a thinking about what can happen if only Dugtrio is banned.

    Diglett: In this case, no theory is needed. Whoever plays or watchs Smogon knows what happened in February during "SM OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Dirt";
    Several players (including me) were able to get Coil / Rqts using Diglett Stall, where the mini-mole performed the same function removing stallbreakers and supporting the team, which did not solve the problem.

    [​IMG]
    Diglett (M) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Arena Trap
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    IVs: 5 HP
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Screech
    - Reversal
    - Substitute
    With 5 HPs in HP Diglett has 135 in stat, being able to use 4 Substitute (remaining 3 HP points) or to use 1 Substitute and take 1 Seismic Toss (remaining 2 HP points), in both cases Reversal base power reaches 200.
    Adamant Nature secures KO in Chansey after 1 Screech, while still leaving Diglett fast enough to pass Heatran, Tyranitar and Hoopa-U.

    Edna commented about Trapinch and I was curious about what this ant could do, so I analyzed the main OU threats and Trapinch's movepool.
    (Theorymon time)

    [​IMG]
    Trapinch (M) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Arena Trap
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Superpower
    - Quick Attack
    - Rock Tomb / Bug Bite / Protect / Flail
    Rock Tomb is KO Volcarona without Charti Berry (109.3 - 129.9%), Bug Bite is KO Hoopa-U (119.6 - 142.1%). Protect prevents Lopunny-M Fake Out and scout possible Choice mons. Flail has 200 base power when Trapinch has 1 HP.
    Among the OU threats that Trapinch can remove; Hoopa-U, Alakazam-M, Tyranitar, Weavile, Heatran, Bisharp, Diancie-M, Lopunny-M and Volcarona.

    For those who want to imagine a cenary where it is possible to put Stealth Rock in the field;

    [​IMG]
    Trapinch (M) @ Eviolite
    Ability: Arena Trap
    EVs: 248 HP / 156 Atk / 104 Def
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Superpower
    - Quick Attack
    - Protect
    This set can not handle Hoopa-U.
    The EVs in Def allows to survive Choice Band Crunch Tyranitar and Choice Band Knock Off Weavile, even after Stealth Rock. Defeating in KO with Superpower.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 104 Def Eviolite Trapinch: 229-270 (78.1 - 92.1%)
    252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 104 Def Eviolite Trapinch: 232-274 (79.1 - 93.5%)
    156+ Atk Trapinch Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 408-480 (119.2 - 140.3%)
    156+ Atk Trapinch Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 628-740 (223.4 - 263.3%)

    Same for Diancie-M (Moonblast 77.1 - 91.1%) and Heatran (252, Timid Magma Storm 69.6 - 82.2%). Earthquake KO.
    Alakazam-M Psychic 78.1 - 92.4%;
    Trapinch (156+ Atk) Earthquake 77.6 - 91.2% + Quick Attack 20.7 - 24.7% (Minimum damage of 98,3%)

    Lopunny-M High Jump Kick 77.8 - 91.4%
    Trapinch (156+ Atk) Superpower 85.6 - 101.1% + (-1) Quick Attack 9.9 - 11.8% (Garanted after Stealth Rock)

    Adamant Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off 77.4 - 91.8%.
    Trapinch (156+ Atk) Superpower 162.3 - 191.8%.

    Chansey? The maximum HP that Trapinch can have is 294. The only way to deal with Chansey would be to use Leftovers to take 3 Seismic Toss and abuse Rest until the PP ends and then abuse Toxic. This would limit the use of Trapinch against all other threats, but if Chansey is still the biggest problem... It's a similar way Gothitelle / Gothorita could do in ORAS.

    I apologize for the excess calculations, but I believe they all represent real situations that could happen if only Dugtrio is banned.

    In conclusion, Diglett can still remove and discourage the use of stallbreaker, even if with a smaller arsenal than Dugtrio.
    While Trapinch sacrifices Speed for a higher Atk (because it can use a Nature +) and even a varied movepool.
    Dugtrio will not be used if Arena Trap is banned, but Trapinch and Diglett will have real niches if only Dugtrio is banned, which will not completely solve the current metagame problems, which were the reasons for creating this topic.

    Ban Arena Trap.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
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  7. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    Thank you to everyone for discussing. After reading and thinking it through, Dugtrio is now banned from the SM OU tier!
     
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