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[POWC] Pokemon Online World Cup 2018 (Discussion Thread)

Discussion in 'Official Tournaments' started by tjdaas, Mar 6, 2018.

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  1. tjdaas

    tjdaas Member

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    Hello everyone - Pokemon Online World Cup (POWC) is coming up this month! This year it will be hosted by @HSOWA and myself, @tjdaas, with the assistance of the lovely @Mr. Perry. In order to make it enjoyable for everyone, we want to hear your input about the decision we are going to make with the managers.


    Tiers:

    The first decision that we will discuss is the tiers. Last year the tiers were:
    SM OU x3
    SM Ubers
    SM UU
    SM LC
    ORAS OU
    BW OU
    DPP OU
    ADV OU
    GSC OU
    RBY OU
    but this format leaves both the RU and NU tier out of POWC. Other formats that are proposed are the removal of Ubers and LC for these tiers, the removal of the third SM OU slot for SM NU and the removal of all the lower tiers and ubers and the gain of an extra SM OU slot (which will yield 10 tiers). These are, of course, not all the proposed and possible formats and are just given as examples. Therefore, it would be nice if you could give us input about which format you want to have in this years edition. You can be as wild with your suggestion as you want!


    Number of Teams:

    The second thing we want your opinion about is it the number of teams we will allow to join. Should we allow all teams that sign-up and have a full roster into the first week or is a qualifier round for new teams and the last places of last year better (the same as WCOP), if we have more signups then, for example, 12 or 14 teams?


    Deadlines:

    The captain signups will open tonight and will close at 23:59pm UTC on Saturday the 10th of March. On Sunday 11th of March the captains are chosen and a captain vote will be hold on the above issues.
    The player signups will go open on the Monday the 12th of March.
    The signups will close at Sunday the 25th of March.
    The first week will start at Monday the 26th of March.
    Are these deadlines desirable or should we change some deadlines?

    Nothing is set in stone yet and therefore it would be nice if you could tell us what you want! If you have any other suggestions, ideas, questions or anything else related to POWC, feel free to post them here! Also the link to the discord can be found here. Thank you and have a good one!
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
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  2. Starlight Firing!

    Starlight Firing! New Member

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    Joyverse and tjdaas like this.
  3. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    I like the tiers list suggested, seems pretty balanced.
    RU is less played than NU already and both really have a smaller playerbase.
    14 players seems too much for me because I don’t know if every team can gather that many players+subs

    I suggest to start signups when we are fixed on tiers, but the 12th is also fine by me
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  4. Za Meowdo

    Za Meowdo Member

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    In as captain for Team Austria. I'd like as few lower tiers as possible, but I guess 3 is alright. I'm also gonna agree with Edna that 14 players + Subs is a little too much and the quality of players is gonna go down / teams might not even be able to field a full roster.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  5. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Probably managing East. Do NOT do 14 slots.
     
  6. Mysterious M

    Mysterious M Dream /\ Bigger

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    I will be managing Greece along with Roudolf.

    Indeed 14 slots is too much
     
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  7. fsk

    fsk Woke up after a long dream Forum Moderator Server Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Server Moderator Tournament Host

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    Agreeing with the general sentiment above that 14 slots is too much. Personally Team China is fine with 12, not sure if other teams agree with this.

    Ideally, we can include some lower tiers as this is always a trait of POWC, where non-OU tiers get a decent amount of representation in national team, differentiating from WCoP a little bit. The problem at hand is basically whether the teams involved can fill in the roster with decent players of these tiers, and if we cannot include all of them, which of them are to be included. (Last year we had Ubers / UU / LC because those were the only playable non OU tiers existed at that time.)

    So I went ahead and looked at the stat of PS!. From the battle count of the main server, we have the USUM tiers total battle count as the following for Jan:

    OU 2041895
    Ubers 345286
    UU 323483
    RU 70462 + suspect 47903
    NU 44643 + suspect 48440
    LC 53855
    17-12
    RU 110725
    NU 78300 + suspect 6061
    LC 53976

    17-11
    RU 76497 + suspect 34332
    NU 85760
    LC 61159

    17-10
    RU 102629 + suspect 17551
    NU 84800 + suspect 18850
    LC 63435

    The ordering pattern is consistent over the past several months.

    It seems to me that if we are going to include 3 non-OU tiers (with 3 Gen 7 OU slots, and 6 old gen OU slots, making 12 slots in total) they will be Ubers, UU and RU (if based on player base). But by no means I'm conclusive about this and the stat isn't all about it. So, the above are simply some thoughts.
     
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  8. HSOWA

    HSOWA aqua Server Moderator Server Moderator

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    There definitely won't be 14 slots, it'll either be 10 or 12.
     
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  9. Brahma

    Brahma Banned

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  10. Eternal Spirit

    Eternal Spirit Banana Captain Gama

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    Doesn't make sense to me picking UBERS and dropping NU while UU/RU will stay there, as well keeping RBY/GSC in 2018. I think UBERS is just a terrible meta to play, while RBY isn't a gen to play in a tournament enviroment, specially team tournaments (IMO). I don't get the arguments that RBY players usually make when are talking about it like "RBY isn't a luck based gen its competitive!!!" when you clearly see that its wrong watching every single SPL game with luck being ALWAYS the winning factor. If you talk about playerbase, dropping NU is also wrong when LC has an even lower PB and GSC is just not popular nowdays (and kinda boring).

    UBERS + RBY are the tiers id like to drop now, with LC/GSC being huge options. Don't drop NU, its as important as any other lower tier with a good enough metagame to be played in team tours.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  11. Superafim

    Superafim Are you here with me?

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    Just echoing Gama's feelings about NU. I feel that lower tiers' players don't have much opportunity to play team tours and POWC adopting Smogon tiers opens up a great opportunity to those players. See HANTSUKI, she was very excited for this year's POWC as she could finally play NU with her friends, something she cannot do on Smogon World Cup (or any other team tour as everyone puts her on UU for some reason). Now that the tiers would be Smogon tiers, she was very excited to be part of POWC but not so much now that her main tier seems to be out.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  12. Kushalos

    Kushalos ASSCHEEKS CHILLIN IN THE AVY

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    I think we should switch up the tiers to have RU and NU since they didnt have the opportunity last year. Now that were also using PS stats instead of the broken PO server ones with unstable metagames there should be a lot more enthusiasm from both those current communities to have players in the current smogon tiers.
    Tiers that should be axed would be two of RBY, GSC, LC, Ubers or third SM OU slot in order of preference.
     
  13. Brahma

    Brahma Banned

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    English isn't my first language so I hope everyone understands the points I will be trying to convey in this post.


    From reading your posts I understand four things from your perspective
    • Ubers is a terrible metagame and should not be included
    • RBY is a RNG infested gen and should not be included
    • GSC is boring and shouldn't be included
    • UU/RU/NU should all be included

    I will address points 1 and 4 simultaneously. Disallowing ubers because you do not like ubers is completely subjective and its not as if you are forced to play Ubers personally. Similarly, UU/RU/NU shouldnt be included because they are more playable. Instead, lower tiers should be chosen where recruiting players for that tier is easy. To my knowledge, every team in this tournament is capable of finding an Ubers main besides Italy (which MiyoKa tells me has a good player called terracotta to check out). However, teams are hard pressed to find UU mains, not to mention an NU or RU main. ISGME personally becomes much better including all the lower tiers because we can fill the spots with high level players, so its not like we have a bone in this fight. Going by the numbers, Little Cup has the smallest community but when we look at previous editions, we can see that teams are able to satisfy the LC role with ease.

    Your second and third point is where I have do not understand your logic at all. You say that RBY is less skillful and too RNG intensive and thus should be removed but then follow this by saying GSC should also be removed which is undisputedly the most skill intensive generation of OU (some may say ADV is but GSC is a clear top 2). Your post is full of personal opinions with no rationale as to why we should choose tiers besides "I feel like it".

    I think we should instead choose if we want to include lower tiers in the first place. If the answer is no, we should run a 4x SM OU and gens 1-6 OU. If the answer is yes, we should choose lower tiers based on what is easier for the majority of teams to fill.

    PS. Keep 3 SM OU pls.
     
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  14. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    #freeLU
     
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  15. Superafim

    Superafim Are you here with me?

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    I don't think that many teams would have that many problems finding players from the lower tiers more than GSC and RBY (or even ADV) since there are active communities on Smogon and PS where people play those tiers today contrary to old gens whom have a very smaller userbase and not so many competitive places today.

    Even in the worst case where a team really don't have a player for a determined tier, it could be circumvented with some nice team working. I remember POWC 2013 fondly and I had a great run with my friends as Brazil reached finals (and would be champions without Canada's ghosting~) even without an LU main and mind you that the format was even more punishing back them.

    Lower tiers always made POWC special and now that they are Smogon tiers it should be even easier to get players to the tour. I'm indifferent about the status of Ubers, LC and old generations, but UU, RU and NU are very competitive tiers with a very competitive userbase, in the SPL spotlight right now and shouldn't be axed from POWC just when the Smogon tiers where finally adopted.
     
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  16. Eternal Spirit

    Eternal Spirit Banana Captain Gama

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    Why would we pick tiers based on "what is easier for the majority of teams to fill"? Its a competitive tournament my friend, if we pick X tier everyone will need to cover It anyway and having or not a capable player on a team is something that the tour itself has def nothing to do. Also a single lower tier has bigger playerbase than probby every single old gen, as well more ladder games etc, why wouldnt them have more impact to being picked in a tournament like this one?

    About my "personal opinion": im not biased. Ubers is a pretty bad metagame as everyone must know (its a fact), rby IS LUCK BASED and GSC/LC have less playerbase than the rest (and the brazilian team would have some of the best players in these metas to cover them anyway) so yeah im just trying to have the best option for the tour.

    I keep my opinion about dropping Ubers/RBY with GSC/LC being also options due to playerbase factors.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  17. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    The aim of the tour itself should be to keep the level of competition as high as possible while also having a competitive format with tiers that have a decently sized playerbase. 3 slots dedicated to SM seems too much and dropping one slot for a lower tier seems fine. I feel like RBY should be removed due to the lack of players in every region that focus on this metagame. Keeping RBY may lead to a drop in the level of competition which is why I believe dropping it for a lower current gen tier would be optimal as current gen lower tiers are more frequently played and will provide more opportunites for players to shine.
    2 SM OU
    1 SM Ubers
    1 SM UU
    1 SM RU
    1 SM NU
    1 SM LC
    1 ORAS OU
    1 BW OU
    1 DPP OU
    1 ADV OU
    1 GSC OU
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
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  18. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp Reformed™

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    That is just absolutely wrong. Since the old-gen community plays almost exclusively on PP, you won't get accurate numbers just by looking at Smogon. RBY has a bigger playerbase than ADV and a much bigger one than GSC, it is also the only one of these that still experiences relatively great changes in the meta, and the most accessible old gen by far. Besides, POWC has a great appeal for RBY players because the tier just got removed from the big Smogon team tournaments.

    And for the sake of my sanity do not bring the "luck based"/"less skill" argument. I don't want to write 15 paragraphs about that.
     
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  19. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I wanna watch someone try to make a 15 paragraph argument about a tier where every relevant competitive community makes it BO3 and where Tauros speed ties are so common that the odds and optimal moves are completely calculated.
     
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  20. psychic mewtwo

    psychic mewtwo psychic mewtwo

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    personally i'd say sm lower tiers are much more fun than rby ou; hate to watch rby games all the time
     
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