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[BW2] DW UU Suspect Thread: Kyurem

Discussion in 'Gen 5 UU' started by Jcpdragonx, Feb 4, 2011.

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  1. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx the business business

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Kyurem being banned or not.

    Make intelligent posts, avoid talking about things you didn't test, especially if they're from 4th gen.

    Try finding counters, checks, and threats to Kyurem, try to give an estimate of its power, and what it does very well.

    Then say your opinion on its tiering.

    If a consensus is reached after several days of discussion, backed by people who do well on the ladder, then it'll probably be adopted. Don't forget this is for the Dream World UU tier.

    Approved by Bad Romance
     
  2. Aston

    Aston Member

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    I believe that Kyu should be banned. Chansey is the only LEGIT counter and even then, the mixed set can 2hko it on the switch with outrage. It also has decent speed and bulk, so it can take a couple of hits. Hazard support is the only way to wear this thing down because it can revenge kill most things with its decent speed.
     
  3. Hexar

    Hexar New Member

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    It's my personal belief that Kyurem is one of the most OVERrated pokemon in the UU metagame. I hear people complaining about it all of the time, however upon looking further into it.... The players at the top of the ladder were NOT using Kyuremu, and only really complained about people lower in the ranks using it. If these players can sustain a top position with decay not using Kyuremu, it doesn't seem like that much of a threat. He does have very nice stats, although his ability is not very welcomed. His speed isn't the best but still good, and his attack stats are very good, however when looking at it, only 1 of the attacking stats really matters. This means that Kyurem can be either physical on 130 or special on 130. Unless you decide to go mixed, which really spreads out your EVs and takes a lot away from his stats and his potential bulk. I have found that he never really determines the game, but the ability to have a dragon on your team is quite nice. I personally use him because I think he looks badass, but I think that he is overrated for all the complaining there is about it.
     
  4. Aston

    Aston Member

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    Being on top or on the bottom of that ladder isnt a good argument and even then, the person at the top of the ladder uses kyurem from time to time. Its not overrated. chansey is the only poke who can safely switch in without problems and chansey can't really do anything back except attempt to heal. And on Hail teams, it even more of a monster.
     
  5. Hexar

    Hexar New Member

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    I've seen pretty much every fighting type handle Kyurem with ease, anything with a SE against it normally kill its. He is weak to fighting, rock, dragon, and steel. These are normally all found pretty much everywhere in UU. He can't OHKO like you think he can, and Chancey completely walls it for the most part unless a crit happens. I'm sure you just have had 1 or 2 bad experiences with it and are overreacting. He is good, but no better than Terakion or Suicune.
     
  6. Aston

    Aston Member

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    Excuse me? How are any of these "fighting, rock, dragon (what dragons in uu? altaria? lmao), and steels(except registeel, all others are 2hko'd) switch in to specs draco meteor? Don't worry, i'll wait.
     
  7. Hexar

    Hexar New Member

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    Don't switch in? Should we also ban ranpuraa? It's really fun when he switches into my choiced Terakion and he gets a free kill. On your switch, you should be able to stop kyuremu, through whatever method you use. Maybe you've had some bad experiences with him, but After SR, he normally dies to something stupid like a hitmontop. Try using him before you assume he is the end all be all pokemon.
     
  8. Aston

    Aston Member

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    "Don't switch in." What? You're not making any sense. If it comes in on something it can outspeed and KO, then it just got a free kill. I don't see how this "Don't switch in" strategy works. Can you explain this to me?
     
  9. upstart

    upstart New Member

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    Honestly what can switch in an safely kill this thing. All your fighters are almost guarenteed to be outgunned on switching in. And if they get a free switch from something dying Kyremu has already done his job. Not to mention Kyremu has decent speed while his other stats are amazing both offensively and defensively. Granted stealth rocks is very important to beating this guy but even so he can serious maim teams if played correctly
     
  10. evolutia

    evolutia Member

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    I concur with Aston. Other than Chansey, Kyreum makes mince meat out of it's counters. Hexar you mention that you use fighting types to "counter" Kyreum. You are either being facetious or you are lying. Fighting types can "revenge" Kyruem but revenging =/= countering.

    Kyreum has perfect coverage with it's moves. It has the power to back them up. I've not seen anything able to withstand even many resisted hits from Kyreum bar Chansey. It's also extremely bulky, even after taking SR damage I've seen it withstand super effective hits. Kyreum is no slouch.
     
  11. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    Gallade can handle non specs sets but dies to physical too :( Also the claw sharpen set 2HKOs chansey with Dragon claw at +1, but that leaves a turn to para the bitch.
     
  12. evolutia

    evolutia Member

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    I've found that substitute is quite convenient on it. Kyrume is protected from Statused and even Chansey can't reliably break it's subs, allowing it to set up on it.
     
  13. Hexar

    Hexar New Member

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    So should Ranpuraa be banned?


    I'd also like to note that Kyuremu was only used 1.15% in Dream World for the month of January ranking #120 and is currently rank #161 with only 0.65% usage. This is far behind many other pokemon commonly used in UU. If you check the list, you will realize a lot more pokemon are OVERUSED than Kyuremu.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2011
  14. Aston

    Aston Member

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    what does being used have to do with it being over powered? \:
     
  15. Hexar

    Hexar New Member

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    The tiers are Underused and Overused, it's based on usage.... Is it not? Hell, in January it wasn't even the most used dragon type. If it's as good as you say it is, why isn't it used more?
     
  16. Aston

    Aston Member

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    You're still not making a valid argument. "It's not used much, so its not good". So, i guess [email protected] and deoxys-a weren't good either because they 'weren't used more'.

    P.S. You still haven't named any safe switch ins...
     
  17. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Just to clear this up, Mew was under 1% usage when Bad Romance and I banned it, so no, high usage is not directly related to brokenness.
     
  18. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Tried to make a giant load of calcs here, covering a lot of special walls in the tier, mostly because Kyurem tends to hit its hardest with its Specs set. hope these help.

    Specs 252 SpAtk Modest Kyuremu:

    Focus Blast vs 252/4 Bold Chansey 39.2% - 46.3%
    Focus Blast vs 252/4 Bold Blissey 42.3% - 49.9%
    Draco Meteor vs 252/4 Bold Milotic 78.7% - 92.9%
    Draco Meteor vs 252/252 Calm Milotic 58.9% - 69.5%
    Ice Beam vs 252/136 Calm Roserade 121.0% - 143.2%
    Draco Meteor vs 252/136 Calm Roserade 88.9% - 104.9%
    Ice Beam vs 4/252 Adamant Birijion 104.3% - 124.1%
    Draco Meteor vs 4/252 Adamant Birijion 76.9% - 90.7%
    Focus Blast vs 252/252 Careful Snorlax 55.7% - 65.6%
    Focus Blast vs 252/252 Calm Probopass (Sandstorm) 96.3% - 113.6%
    Focus Blast vs 252/200 Careful Registeel 65.9% - 78.0%
    Draco Meteor vs 4/252 Timid Gardevoir 97.5% - 114.7%
    Focus Blast vs 252/252 Calm Tabunne 82.9% - 98.0%
    Focus Blast vs 120/252 Careful Umbreon 72.0% - 84.8%

    so this is generally Kyuremu's max damage output specially. at least 2HKOs all things that aren't Chansey/Blissey, though of course 70% accuracy needs to be taken into account for Focus Blast. Some of these can switch in on Specs Kyuremu if they're lucky enough not to get hit by a super effective move. But of course, Kyuremu isn't nearly as predictable as that thanks to its excellent mixed stats. When i first approached these calcs it began to look like Kyuremu might not be so broken after all, but as I wrapped it up I definitely came to the conclusion that Kyurem should be BL. These are the most specially bulky pokemon in the entire tier, and bar a very lucky switch they're going to get 2HKOed at best. Birijion's Holy Sword, the only offense with a chance in this list, deals a max of 83.2%. Only 1 or 2 other than Chansey and Blissey have a chance to Thunder Wave Specs Kyuremu.
     
  19. Judas

    Judas Member

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    Well thank god the tier of BL is based on power rather than usage, huh?
     
  20. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    Just one thing Aurist, Birijidon usually runs a Defensive CM set, I think its 252 HP and Def with a def boosting nature?

    Edit, That is the grass/fighting legend right?
     
  21. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Yes, that's the one. I just used the most commonly used set on it, which also happened to be the most specially defensive set (that doesn't require set up). If I changed it to the CM set the damage percentages for it go up by a couple per cent, birijion isn't going to be able to get one CM off at all.
     
  22. Aston

    Aston Member

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    Those numbers tell it all. Kyurem is way too over powered in UU.
     
  23. xgina

    xgina : )

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    bronzong can switch in on any of specs kyurem's moves (except maybe HP fire if it outpredicts you) and force it out whilst setting up stealth rocks,

    you seem to have ignored it completely, aurist

    it needs to be max hp/sdef with a boosting nature to take more than 4 draco meteors though. having a secondary somewhat specially bulky pokemon alongside zong is what has saved me against this thing many times.

    then again zong gets wrecked by that REALLY ANNOYING sub/protect/claw sharpen/dragon claw set as it just gets stalled out of gyro balls and becomes setup fodder.

    despite zong i really do think kyurem is too good for uu. every time i see it i just rush to get toxic spikes up as if you don't then it'll just bash its way through any walls that aren't chansey... whoops never mind it's running LO outrage you're fucked.

    (why is its suspect status limited to dream world?)
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2011
  24. Contest Master Majin

    Contest Master Majin Member

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    Kyuremu is, in my opinion, a really nice threat in UU. It is one of those almost overwhelming powers, like Latios in OU, that at a drop of a hat can turn 4HKO into OHKO, but can be easily worked around, depending on the set. I do support it's banning in that I agree that it is an extraordinarily powerful Pokemon that can handle most Pokemon in the tier. Just like any Specs Pokemon, with bad players it turns into a Draco Meteor spamfest, but in good hands it can utilise double switches, unexpected switching in and a wide array of moves to neuter anything not named Chansey. It has incredible bulk and mixed attacking stats (it's the counterpart of Reshiram and Zekrom, for God's sakes), but absolutely terrible typing, even in UU. Scarf Terakion is a great check - it can only switch in on something like a Claw Sharpen, but it's a definite OHKO with Close Combat - and Hitmontop does a reliable job of dealing great damage with Fake Out + Mach Punch. All in all, it's checks and counters are limited, and the amount of Pokemon it can't destroy is next to none. Move please.
     
  25. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    apologies for having missed it. here you go:

    Focus Blast vs 252/216 Sassy Bronzong 42.6% - 50.3%
    vs 252/104 Relaxed Bronzong 51.2% - 60.4%
    Draco Meteor vs 252/216 Sassy Bronzong 37.3% - 43.8%
    vs 252/104 Relaxed Bronzong 44.7% - 52.7%
    Hidden Power Fire vs 252/252 Sassy Bronzong 53.3% - 62.7%

    basically unless you are switching into Ice Beam you -have- to run specially defensive Bronzong to have a chance of putting a stop to Kyurem with Bronzong. Bronzong also has to run Brave nature with 252 atk evs to KO kyuremu with gyro ball and even then that's only a 25% chance, meanwhile Kyuremu gets an easy 2HKO. You won't be able to force a switch unless they're locked into Ice Beam so Stealth Rock can't really help too much.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2011
  26. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    Honestly, the only way I've been able to deal with this guy when I'm not running SR+Spikes or Registeel/Chansey is to let something die to d-meteor and revenge/neuter it with hazards. The weakness to SR is honestly the only thing really keeping this thing manageable for me, with a spinner anything not named fat pink blob will cry in agony and roll over dead after two meteors. Add to the fact that most special walls that actually can switch in on Kyuremu really cannot do anything back if it has sub or is mixed, it's kind of the opposite side of Latias who had the bulk to just set up on everything with a sub and recover before annihilating everything with CM d-pulse. Kyuremu just gets in and owns face almost unconditionally.
     
  27. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    While personally I support its banning, one of its biggest drawbacks is 95 base Speed.
    It's nice, but often not good enough.

    However, the thing's ridiculously bulky for a supposedly offensive Pokemon. 125/90/90 is not shabby at all.
    Indeed, a Swampert at 252 HP (just calling up a random Pokemon up for comparison) takes a less than 1% difference average from a Kyurem with no defensive investment.

    From my personal experience, I don't really have to use Draco Meteor. I just spam Ice Beam; Draco Meteor is only for the tougher Pokemon, like Suicune.
    But then, I'm running a Life Orb set. :P
     
  28. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx the business business

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    I seem to see the defensive dragon tail sets more often than the offensive sets, like mixed LO and Specs. The defensive set is much more annoying to take down if it Subs.
     
  29. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    Yep, if it subs we need CB CHIRACHIINO TO KICK ITS ASS WITH ROCK BLAST, oh wait I took that a little overboard. :D
     
  30. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    I'm honestly a little surprised by the lack of focus on Kyurem's stall(breaker) set. Sub/Claw Sharpen/Protect/Dragon Claw is such a bitch to stop.
     
  31. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    ^So thats why none of you guys are having problems with stall. I'd run it, but it's most likely going to BL anyway.
     
  32. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    Dragon Tail over Dragon Claw swept my team once. .-.
    No chance for setup and so much damage. Shouldn't have put such an emphasis on hazards. XD
    And since my Deo-S runs Taunt and Shadow Ball in its filler moves (ran Counter at the time to check if it could work), it couldn't do a thing back.
    Couldn't even break the Sub. XD
     
  33. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I'd probably say that's because 99% of people seem to run Specs or mixed Claw Sharpen. I haven't seen Kyurem's stallbreaker set in action, personally.
     
  34. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    Arguably Kyurem would have a better role as a stallbreaker because a hit and run ice-type never works well if SR is up, but at the same time base 130 special attack draco meteors that are only 2x resisted by things lacking reliable recovery down in UU? That's almost too good to pass up.
     
  35. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    well frankly Kyurem tends to work better as a late(r)-game sweeper imo. It comes in once anything that can threaten it has gone and destroys everything. +1 Dragon Claw on the mixed set 1HKOs Chansey if evo stone has been tricked/knocked off.
     
  36. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    Kyurem does not really have the speed for lategame cleaning, I always found it is better at punching holes in teams that other sweepers can abuse.
     
  37. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Member

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    Catch Chansey with an Outrage, Birijion profits.

    Those calcs... Ouch.

    Considerations:
    How much does min speed Bronzong Gyro Ball do to uninvested Kyurem?
    How much does 4 Atk neutral-natured LO Outrage do to Chansey?
    What can Kyurem safely come in on?
    How many teams will not give it opportunities to come in and do damage?
     
  38. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    It doesn't have to come in on anything. It comes in after a death and just wrecks shit. It can come in on chansey/gligar that aren't using Toxic and sub up on them though.
     
  39. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    First question I mentioned earlier, "Bronzong also has to run Brave nature with 252 atk evs to KO kyuremu with gyro ball and even then that's only a 25% chance"

    4 Atk Life Orb Kyuremu Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Evolution Stone Chansey: 43.47% - 51.14%
    and if you've been clever enough and brought something to trick/knock off:
    4 Atk Life Orb Kyuremu Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Chansey: 64.77% - 76.28%

    Kyurem isn't likely to be able to come in on many things that deal SE damage to it as that will likely impede the sweep. However, with stealth rock not around Kyurem is able to withstand most neutral attacks thanks to that 125/90/90 bulk, so switching in isn't a problem for choiced Kyurem. Mixed Kyurem, such as the Claw Sharpen set, is a little less able to take hits due to Naive/Hasty nature but if it switches in on a less offensive pokemon it's pretty much guaranteed to set up to at least +1 and sweep. (By the way, with Evo Stone +1 LO Dragon Claw does 47.73% - 55.97% to Chansey, 71.16% - 83.66% without. Focus Blast will 2HKO a Chansey without Evo Stone after SR, and accuracy applies a lot less as Focus Blast is 93% accurate at +1)

    In my experience of playing with Kyurem, there aren't that many chances for it to switch in as it's a risky move with such a powerful sweeper. At the same time, there aren't too many things likely to KO Kyurem thanks to its pretty good bulk. There isn't much sweeper paranoia going on as far as I have seen, and Kyurem will take neutral and resisted hits better than the most powerful sweepers in the metagame like Lucario, Terakion, Feraligatr. There's next to no chance of it not getting the opportunity to sweep during a match, especially with revenge opportunities.
     
  40. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    i don't think it should be banned. Chansey, Blissey, and Bronzong can switch in on it easily, and cripple it. Other pokemon, while not being able to switch in, can also cripple it. Its base speed isn't that high either, and pokemon like Terakion can easily revenge kill it. Its typing also gives a Stealth Rock weakness, and a common weakness to Fighting. For physical sets, pokemon like Weezing can switch in and give it a burn.
     
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