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[BW2] UU Suspect Discussion: Chansey

Discussion in 'Gen 5 UU' started by yiran, Feb 5, 2011.

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  1. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    Discuss the possibility of Chansey and/or Blissey being banned or not.

    Make intelligent posts, avoid talking about things you didn't test, especially if they're from 4th gen.

    Try finding counters, checks, and threats to Chansey and/or Blissey, try to give an estimate of its power, and what it does very well.

    Then say your opinion on its tiering.

    If a consensus is reached after several days of discussion, backed by people who do well on the ladder, then it'll probably be adopted. Don't forget this is for Dream World UU.

    (although if Chansey is banned in DW UU it'll probably end up banned in Wifi UU too)

    Note: This thread is just the suspect discussion for both pokemon. It doesn't mean we have to ban both or neither.

    Approved by Kokoloko
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2014
  2. Aston

    Aston Member

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    It all comes down to your specific team. Theres an argument that "Its not that Chansey herself lacks counters, its that she extends her endless durability to the entire team", that i completely disagree with. Unless you are using feeble attacks AND your opponent is using a team full of tanks, chansey will not be able to wish/heal bell infinitely. Use the time that chansey is wishing/softboiling/heal belling to set up hazard or set up sweeps. If you say, "thats not my play style", then that is your fault. I'm not saying that chansey is always beaten or easily beaten but thats the point of using a wall.
     
  3. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    I don't like that Blissey is grouped together with Chansey since they're different in pretty much every way except how much HP their Wish can pass. Hopefully this won't end like the Deoxys A/N topic where one gets banned and everyone forgets about the other or like at Smogon where both are banned without even testing one.

    Anyway I'm pro BL for the reasons I outlined in the other topic and Aston above me even quoted, but I don't really care what happens since I like abusing it.
     
  4. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx the business business

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    This will probably be the most debatable suspect so far. I honesty believe neither are broken. Both lose to Leech Seed, physical fighting STABs, strong physical attacks, anything who can wear it down with Taunt, Trick, and a few others. Some Pokemon see them as the perfect set up fodder (101 Subs, Magic Guard, Etc). Both also have limited roles, being a cleric to support the team with wish, heal bell, and sometimes spreading status. Chansey and Blissey are seen as the ultimate cleric and special wall, which I agree with, but they are counter able. The best argument for them to become banned is that they render most special attackers useless.
    I vote UU for the time being

    Edit: Athough both are exposed to a lot of different moves, I am finding that Chansey is incredibly hard to take down. It survives everything bar 120+ STAB fighting moves from high attack Pokemon.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  5. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    I've outlined all my reasons in the other thread, the main one is definately that they both render most special attackers useless unless they have trick (I'm not sure many SpAtkers actually get Knock off). 101 HP subs do beat her, though the most prominent SpAtkers with that HP she has reasons not to switch into anyway which are Kyuremu (mixed), Celebi (leech seed), Tangrowth (mixed, Leech seed AND Knock off) and Drifblim (can't break subs anyway). These are the only pokemon with base 100 or more who can abuse 100 HP subs to set up their sweeps in UU anyway except for Musharna who has Psycho shock to 2HKO chansey at +2 SpAtk. Having Base 100 HP subs isn't a really good argument when chansey shouldn't be switching into them anyway.

    I'm voting BL, for the reasons outlined in my other thread. I'm not saying she has no counters, but SpAtkers need to predict her switch in with trick or have 100 HP subs to set up on her (which is surprisingly few pokemon).

    Edit: Forgot under 100 base HP Meloetta (mixed), Shaymin (leech seed again), though switching into Suicune becomes a PP stall fest, Or she could use Psych Up to win that PP stall match which isn't exactly viable though).
     
  6. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    If you need ultra specific counters for Chansey don't you think that hints at broken? Even with these counters you aren't accomplishing much if every time you switch in Chansey just heals itself or a teammate and switches out. Even when its countered Chansey's team gets the better end of the deal.

    In testing my Chansey hasn't died once barring games I actually lost. I once had Chansey Tricked a Scarf by Spititomb. Did that kill it? No, I just kept healing and Wishing. Against other Chansey I generally have long stall games that I can almost guarantee I'd lose if it wasn't for my own Chansey keeping stuff alive. I don't care if my Chansey gets countered, it only needs one turn to setup. Unless more than half your team is able to 2HKO Chansey it will likely be up your ass the whole time.

    **I haven't used Blissey yet, just Chansey.
     
  7. Wavy

    Wavy prince of the sea Server Moderator Server Moderator

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    I'm mainly going to discuss Chansey. I know Blissey is similar but due to the fact that I've yet to encounter any Blisseys, I'd be basing my opinion on theorymon, which is not gonna be very helpful to the suspect thread. (But for the record I'd probably put Blissey in the same position as Chansey, since they're pretty much equals)

    Chansey takes hits. It takes all kinds of hits. Putting one on your team will turn an awfully weak core into a super strong one. It just switches in on nearly anything, barring some of the most powerful physical threats in the meta, and heals or does whatever it wants before switching back out. And spotting the one Pokemon on your opponent's team that can actually kill Chansey is a really easy task, so it's not gonna die unless you're getting swept.

    I just don't think it's reasonable to have a supporter who can run around, sponge up almost every attacker in the game, and pass MASSIVE Wishes, cure the team with Aromatherapy... AND have natural cure, so you can't even wear it down with Toxic.

    We've already discussed how Terakion can't OHKO it without a Life Orb. It's absolutely unheard of for a Pokemon to survive an attack like that on their weaker side and ALSO be nigh untouchable on their strong side.

    Meanwhile our metagame is loaded up with eager walls who want to do their thing, but are made pointless by Chansey's superiority, outside of a handful of niche scenarios.
     
  8. evolutia

    evolutia Member

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    I'm currently sitting at 6th on the UU Dream World ladder (alt name Lilina) and I got there without ever having Chansey/Blissey on a team. Chansey's moveset is completely telegraphic. It's only damage output is a consistent and predictable S-Toss and equally predictable Toxic/T-wave. Almost any pokemon can beat or stall Chansey out simply by throwing rest on their moveset. In the other thread I've outlined 20 special attackers that could all beat Chansey. There are plenty more mixed or physical attackers that can beat it just as efficiently. Moves like Encore, Trick, Leech Seed, 101 Subs, TAUNT and Ghost types with Sub all are excellent deterrents to Chansey.

    Overall I feel that there are more than enough options that one can utilize on a team to handle Chansey adequately. I do not believe Chansey should be banned.
     
  9. upstart

    upstart New Member

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    I second this. I too have had much success on the ladder packing 3 alts in top the top ten at one point all with various teams. I have used many specail attackers and yes chansey can wall some but there are many it cannot. And I mean it is chanseys job to wall specail attackers so I have no problem with that. I would support however banning of the evolution stone on chansey over banning chansey as whole as it allows chansey to take physical hit arguably too well.
     
  10. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    I really wish chansey/blissey was looked at in previous gens, its the main reason why the majority of OU in past gens are physical, and because people adapted (similarly to Shandy before a few more people started raging but over 4 gens instead of 4 months) OU in gen 4 was shaped into what it was at the end. However, One of the main drawbacks to chansey/blissey in previous gens that there were decent mixed attackers that could lure them in and destroy them on their weaker side, At the moment, chansey isn't even 2HKOd by an expert belt Brick break from Max attack Shibirudon. Also with explosions nerf, pokemon like Magnezone can't draw bliss/chansey in and destroy her with that and with evo stone, that task is even harder than before. Non STAB Fighting attacks no longer OHKO her, for example, LO superpower from Dragonite doesn't OHKO chansey, even with Stealth rock.
     
  11. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    I'm 5th on the ladder right now and my vote... err... I'm conflicted. On paper and in practice Chansey is incredibly hard to bring down if used well. If I had to pick a Pokemon to ban based off its defensive characteristics, Chansey would be the perfect example.

    I'm saying Uber but I don't really care either way.
     
  12. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    I second that. The only thing that kills Chansey straight is a very strong Physical Fighting Attack from a very Strong Fighting Pokemon. And it's not very hard at all to switch out into a Ghost or Fight Resisting Physical Wall (I'm looking at Weezing here).

    Banning Chansey will also broaden the variety of pokemon used - Alomomola can be used for wish passing, Snorlax and a lot more can be used for special walling & status stalling.

    Do you mean Uber or BL?
     
  13. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    BL. Though I wouldn't mind super-centralizing stuff like Blissey / SR / Shanderaa in Ubers...
     
  14. Wavy

    Wavy prince of the sea Server Moderator Server Moderator

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    The things you're listing that "counter" Chansey are for one thing, extremely predictable, and irrelevant. In order for these things to actually work, the Pokemon countering Chansey has to already be on the field. You cant stop Chansey by taunting it after it already used Wish, and you can't kill it with Leech Seed. If you're capable of 101 Subs, Chansey probably shouldn't even be trying to seismic toss.

    Chansey isn't a sweeper, stop trying to treat it like one. Very few sweepers or offensive Pokemon even GET the list of things that "stop" Chansey. If Chansey's getting stalled out, then something is wrong. It shouldn't stay in on one of the rare things that aren't bothered by it.

    I've peaked at 4th and 5th with my two alts, Dr.Swift and Sunstorm respectively, but I don't know where on the ladder they're at right now due to the fact that I haven't played for a week or so.
     
  15. evolutia

    evolutia Member

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    My comments are listed in bold, in the quoted text.

    Overall, I don't know if it's a lack of understanding, mis-comprehending sentences or something else entirely but with this "post" Hopefully I've cleared them all up.
     
  16. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    If you throw up rest on your sweepers it means free wish-passing/set-up from a teammate unless your mon is roserade or shaymin. Running rest on your special attacker to "counter" Chansey is not a sound idea if your opponent is even slightly competent.

    I feel like you are generalizing what kind of a threat Chansey can actually be, until you know its move-set it can easily cripple almost any common sweeper without a sub/taunt. The only viable sub ghost type is Mismagius, who has very poor defense and is easily revenged due to meh speed and defense, so it should never be a problem for chansey who shouldn't switch in on her in the first place. And if Mismagius is switching in on chansey it will obviously get crippled by one of two status moves. It's job isn't just walling, while you're messing around with rest alakazam that chansey is passing a wish to a sweeper, setting up hazards or clearing its team of status.
     
  17. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    Evolutia, Psycho Shock does less damage to Chansey than you think it does. And Calm Mind isn't very effecient at boosting your damage.

    [secret]Mismagius: Sub,CM
    Suicune: CM,Rest
    Celebi: Nasty Plot or CM + Recover, Leech Seed
    Xatu: Psycho Shock + CM
    Cress: CM, Rest, Shock
    Driftblim Sub + CM
    Marshanna CM,Shock, Rest
    Shaymin...Leech Seed, Sub, Seed Flare
    Rotom(true forme) Sub + Charge Beam
    Daburan Recover, CM, Shock
    Bronzong CM, Rest, Shock
    Uxie CM, Rest, Shock
    Mespirt CM, Rest, Shock
    Shinbora Flame Orb, CM, Roost, Shock
    Gothitelle Rest + CM (Shadow Tag)
    Oobemu Rest, CM, Shock
    Claydol CM, Rest Shock
    Jynx, NP, Shock, Lovely Kiss
    Lucario, NP, Aura Sphere[/secret]

    And most people you listed there rely on Psycho Shock.

    Also Rest basically = suicide. They can switch out into a super effective pokemon every time you switch the Sleeping pokemon in, especially since the Sleep counter resets after switching out.
     
  18. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    I did say chansey can beat half that list as she isn't even 2HKOd by LO252 Quiiet Rank (TR set) without SR. Definately overestimating the power mate.
     
  19. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    iirc terrakion even with it's high physical attack + stab close combat needs a lo to 1hko chancey + the nerf to self-destruct + explosion didn't help w/ breaking it or blissey either special attackers are hard enough pressed 2 eliminate blissey, chancey if you don't have either a trick poke or a powerful fighting move/physical attacker who can somehow trap it killing the thing is ridiculous.

    edit: this is me using someone else's calcs off the top of my head as i wasn't in the mood to wrestle with my damage calculator which i just checked 252 jolly lo terrakion does 81.8-96.6% to max/max bold evolution stone chansey with close combat.
    + @aston we are trying to 1hko it with a super-effective move off of it's pathetic physical defence.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  20. Aston

    Aston Member

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    Why is everyone trying to OHKO chansey? Its a WALL, it is meant to take hits. If you can't beat chansey outright, save it for last. There is no way that chansey should be switching in freely and wishing her whole team unless you're running some weak pokemon. Yes, i'm away that chansey can pass some huge wishes but you have a chance to ko incoming recipient. I'm also aware that chansey can status, but you can heal bell as well. I don't think there is any excuse as to why chansey should be walling teams. Don't forget that you can beat chansey with prediction. Chansey switches are almost so easy to see coming, switch to your counter before it has a chance to do anything and hopefully, it took some spikes and/or rock damage on the way in. This is not ADV. Almost EVERY pokemon got a huge buff in gen 5. take advantage of it.
     
  21. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    people are over exaggerating the buff to pokemon this gen. They gained new abilities not an extra 30 Base power to their Atk/SpAtk...
     
  22. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    Just to clear up that Terrakion thing, with no Life Orb, no +Attack nature, and no Attack EVs Terrakion still OHKOs 252 HP Chansey. With Life Orb, it has a good chance of OHKOing 252 Def Chansey.
    With max Defensive bulk, Chansey STILL takes 95.7-112.8% damage from a max Atk, neutral Atk nature Life Orb Terrakion. Not a sure OHKO, but any entry hazards at all or 30 prior damage guarantees the kill.
    With Adamant it's always a sure KO.
     
  23. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

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    An overlooked move on chansey is healing wish, great for late game, use it to fully heal your clean up sweeper, though finding a slot may be hard.
     
  24. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    Chansey switches into Desukan/Dusclops.

    Problem fixed.

    Also fidgety can you please make your post better - don't use 2 for to and use you not u.
     
  25. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    Well, Chansey got a 1.5x boost to both of its defenses, so arguably it got a bigger boon then pretty much all the old sweepers save like, Blaziken.
     
  26. Shadowheart

    Shadowheart Free Hitmonlee

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    Yes Chansey received the buff from evo stone but its drawbacks are still the same this gen as they were last gen. The reason Blissey is more used is because chansey can't do any damage to anything beyond seismic toss and toxic. It has more defenses but less to do with them. This makes it complete set-up bait for poison and steel types (Steelix, Toxicroak, Aianto, Shubarugo,) pokemon with natural cure (Roserade, Altaria) anything with 101 HP substitutes (Barujiina, Haryama, Honchrow, Azumarill) Ghost types with rest or taunt (Froslass, Dusclops, Desukan) Fighting types with guts (heracross, evo stone dokkora.) That is ALOT of pokemon and i have by no means covered them all.

    I also think Chansey acts as a balancing agent for the metagame. Without it, alot of special threats would cause alot more havoc than they already do. Think about the Pokemon of yours Chansey stops. Now imagine having to fight all of them without her. Not fun.

    My Vote is NO BAN
     
  27. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Member

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    You don't have to OHKO Chansey to be effective against it. There are a large number of pretty dangerous pokemon which it simply can't do much to. It's very good, but it's not unstoppable and can be a liability. This is something to take into consideration, at the very least.
     
  28. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    The problem isn't so much the inability to OHKO it, so much as it is the difficulty dealing enough damage to wear it down without it being able to heal it off... I mean really... it takes physical hits as well as Swampert. That's just ridiculous. If there will ever be a defensive threat banned, it has to be this.
     
  29. Gerard

    Gerard Member

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    Chansey is not as good as everyone is trying to make her sound, she's really good at what she does, indirect damage and Walling, but she can take a powerful physical hit, terakion, Toxicroak, Shubarugo, most of the new treats have a nice time kicking Chansseys ass, you use one of them, and she's gonna swich, no doubt, just like that you gained a bulk up, rock poslih or swords dance or DD, done, you can allways set up on her and anything that deals a good physical fighting attack can blow her, I can't remember how many pink nurses i have hit with drain punch just to see my life go to full, it's not perfect and she can't take a lot of hits from the Physical side without wish or softboiling (and even there there's allways taunt and the annoying mischevous heath)
     
  30. Noog

    Noog So much potential...

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    Terakion doesn't like Toxic nor Thunder Wave, and Toxicroak is crippled by Thunder Wave. Shubarugo's the only one that doesn't mind either effect, but at the same time it's a bit too slow to set much up without getting KO'd next turn. Also, remember that this is UU -- there aren't that many powerful threats out there that can take this thing down. Adamant Weavile's LO Low Kick only deals 33.5% - 39.5%, while Adamant Dokkora's LO Drain Punch deals 45.5% - 53.7%. If Weavile tries to use Swords Dance on Chansey, chances are it'll be crippled by either a Toxic or Thunder Wave. Adamant Hitmontop's LO Hi Jump Kick deals 70.7% - 83.5%, but also deals 12.5% damage to itself whenever Chansey uses Protect or when it misses. The same Hitmontop's Mach Punch deals 42.6% - 50.3%, but it'll likely get crippled with Toxic or Thunder Wave. Plus, I've yet to see a Hitmontop that uses a set-up move.

    While Taunt does stop Chansey, how many Pokémon can even use the move effectively outside of the lead spot?

    On the special side, a theoretical Specs Focus Blast from a Fighting-type with Base 180 SpA and 252 EVs invested into SpA and a Modest nature deals 75% - 88.6%. Yeah, even the most powerful Focus Blast can't take down this pink behemoth in one shot. Actually, a base SpA stat of 210 is required to even deal 84.7% - 100% using a STAB Specs Focus Blast. o.O
     
  31. Gerard

    Gerard Member

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    that's probably because this is a special wall we're talking about, after a couple of nasty plots it could kill her which is easy considering that she can't do a lot to most poks, no chansey carries toxic and TW, cuase she would have to give up Seismic toss and became taunt bait, you only have to discover what she uses, Toxic, then shubarugocan use swords dance and obliterate your team, Twave, ground poke, lighting rode and motor drive are all things you can use, and she's not really fat so anything with average speed can put a sub and avoid not sismic nurses 101 subs make her angry and anything with drain ounch it's a big nightmare
     
  32. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    Dude, Chansey has the physical bulk of swampert, it's a mixed wall if anything.
     
  33. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    A +6 MODEST MAGNEZONE deals 72.6% max with Thunderbolt.
    A Modest Alakazam needs at least +5 to OHKO without Life Orb with Focus Blast. With, the guy has a chance of KOing at +3.
    Most Chansey are EVed 252 HP/252 Def, probably for max wishes and max physical bulk. Personally, I'd run 252 Def/252 Sp. Def, but whatever. In any case, these calcs are done with only 4 EVs for Sp. Def bulk.
    Trying to attack Chansey with Sp. Attacks is like smashing your face against the Pentagon as a way of breaking in, even without any Special Defense investment. By the time you actually manage to setup enough to do any real damage, she'd have freakin' Seismic Tossed you to death.
     
  34. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    Seismic toss does more than you think to weaker pokemon.
    For Shubarugo, they just switch out into a random pokemon with a Fire Move and screw you up.
    And if you switch in another pokemon that wants to set up a swords dance, she switches out into a physical wall, and even swords danced attacks won't do much.
    Or they just can also switch out into a pokemon that knows Haze, like Crobat (fast) or Weezing (can take physical hits).
    Drain Punchers can be met with some ghosts or a Crobat/Weezing/Another Fight Resist.
     
  35. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    @Groshi
    Please avoid just switch out arguments. They tend to go in circles. .-.
     
  36. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    Yes, but when it comes to defensive threats switching is part of what makes them good. Chansey has done it's job if it can switch in, get off a Wish and switch out to heal a teammate. Chansey has an amazing supporting movepool which, combined with great stats, allows it to support it's team extremely easily. It can switch in on the strongest special attackers in the metagame and do whatever it wants. And it's not even that frail physically. Anything that takes 121 base attack to be OHKOd with a STAB SE 120 BP move is NOT frail. It is not hard to cover Chansey's weaknesses, as in reality it only has one. Covering up a physical fighting weakness is not a difficult task.

    Honestly, it's up to you whether you think Chansey is broken in UU, but please stop handling Chansey the way you would an offensive threat. It's not about how many things can stop it's sweep, it's how many things IT can perform it's role against and how many things IT can wall.
     
  37. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    The problem is, switching out is what you're supposed to do if you are a wall.

    I'll say "Avoid Chansey arguments. They tend to go in circles." Does that work?
     
  38. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    Well, true, but from what I've seen in previous threads it ends up with the opponents saying, "Oh yeah? I can switch out too!" :P
    Not trying to be rude. It's just what I've seen before.

    BTW, Choice Banded Shubarugo/Escavalier maxes out at 69.6% damage with Megahorn against 252 HP/252 Def Bold Chansey aka Standard Chansey. :O
    It has time for a T-Wave before it switches, if it has T-Wave.
     
  39. at ease

    at ease New Member

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    I don't think Chansey is much of a problem tbh. Yeah, it takes plenty of hits but there is no shortage of strong fighting types (terakion especially is great) or viable trickers in the meta (I use scarf Porygon2 and/or Specs Azelf myself.) It's also set up bait just like it's always been (unless it has thunderwave, admittedly, which I hardly ever see for some reason, even then, some things don't care about T-wave.) It sounds absurdly good on paper but there's just so many things you can do when you're opponent has a chansey on the field. Whenever I see a chansey I say fuck yeah free T-spikes. ^_^ Also, knock off makes chansey very sad indeed.

    It's not nearly as hard to deal with as DEOXYS-D, but that's for another thread I guess.

    I have nothing to say about Blissey because I don't play dream world, I think Chansey is fine in UU. I mean, I guess it makes teams of nothing but non set-up sweepers less viable, that's about it.
     
  40. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

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    Again, Chansey can switch out to all of what you just listed. And Chansey isn't even OHKO'd by Terakion (I remember someone doing the calculation). It also has Wish Passing and Heal belling, so you can't simply ruin the other pokemon available, as Chansey can heal them back. Also, trick is generally predictable enough that you will switch out. If you think Chansey's set up bait for physical attackers, watch as the foe switches into Weezing or Cofagrigus and Burn you.
     
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