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[BW2] NU details

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by pokemonnerd, Jul 22, 2011.

  1. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Wifi BL: Chansey, Deoxys-D, Kingdra, Kyurem, Roserade, Smeargle, Sand Stream, Snow Warning, Staraptor, Vulpix, Wobbuffet

    Wifi UU:

    Ambipom, Arcanine, Azelf, Azumarill, Bisharp, Blastoise, Bronzong, Chandelure, Claydol, Cobalion, Crobat, Darmanitan, Dusclops, Empoleon, Flygon, Froslass, Gligar, Heracross, Hitmontop, Honchkrow, Houndoom, Krookodile, Machamp, Mew, Mienshao, Milotic, Mismagius, Nidoking, Porygon-Z, Porygon2, Qwilfish, Raikou, Registeel, Rhyperior, Rotom-H, Sableye, Scrafty, Sharpedo, Shaymin, Slowbro, Snorlax, Suicune, Swampert, Togekiss, Umbreon, Victini, Virizion, Weavile, Xatu, Yanmega, Zapdos, Zoroark

    BL2 List: Cresselia, Durant, Gorebyss, Huntail, Medicham, Rhyperior

    Wifi LU: Absol, Accelgor, Aerodactyl, Aggron, Archeops, Braviary, Clefable, Cofagrigus, Crustle, Cryogonal, Drapion, Druddigon, Dusknoir, Entei, Feraligatr, Ferroseed, Gallade, Galvantula, Gardevoir, Hariyama, Hippowdon, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Kabutops, Lanturn, Lilligant, Ludicolo, Magmortar, Magneton, Manectric, Miltank, Moltres, Munchlax, Nidoqueen, Omastar, Primeape, Rotom, Rotom-C, Sandslash, Sceptile, Scolipede, Sigilyph, Slowking, Spiritomb, Steelix, Swellow, Tangrowth, Typhlosion, Uxie

    BL3 List: Charizard, Druddigon, Feraligatr, Hitmonlee, Jynx, Sawsbuck, Scolipede, Tangela

    Wifi NU:

    Alomomola, Altaria, Amoonguss, Ampharos, Armaldo, Articuno, Audino, Bastiodon, Bouffalant, Butterfree, Cacturne, Camerupt, Carracosta, Cinccino, Cradily, Crawdaunt, Drifblim, Dugtrio, Duosion, Eelektross, Electivire, Electivire, Emboar, Escavalier, Exeggutor, Floatzel, Garbodor, Gigalith, Golduck, Golem, Golurk, Gurdurr, Haunter, Hippopotas, Kadabra, Kangaskhan, Klinklang, Lapras, Leafeon, Lickilicky, Linoone, Mandibuzz, Marowak, Mesprit, Misdreavus, Musharna, Ninjask, Pikachu, Pinsir, Poliwrath, Probopass, Quagsire, Raichu, Rampardos, Rapidash, Regice, Regirock, Rhydon, Roselia, Rotom-F, Rotom-S, Samurott, Sawk, Scyther, Serperior, Skuntank, Slaking, Stoutland, Tauros, Togetic, Torkoal, Torterra, Ursaring, Vileplume, Volbeat, Wartortle, Weezing, Whimsicott, Zebstrika

    (Cutoff for this list was 4%-1%; compiled from Wifi LU stats)

    Current suspects: none
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2012
  2. 114

    114 Guest

    (20:09:46) 114: Accelgor, Aerodactyl, Aggron, Amoonguss, Archeops, Armaldo, Audino, Bouffalant, Charizard, Cinccino, Cobalion, Crustle, Drapion, Drifblim, Druddigon, Duosion, Dusknoir, Electivire, Entei, Escavalier, Exeggutor, Gardevoir, Gastrodon, Gurdurr, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Kangaskhan, Lanturn, Lapras, Leafeon, Lickilicky, Lilligant,
    (20:09:48) 114: Mesprit, Moltres, Nidoqueen, Omastar, Primeape, Quagsire, Qwilfish, Regigigas, Rhydon, Rhyperior, Rotom-C, Sandslash, Scolipede, Scyther, Slowking, Swellow, Tangela, Tangrowth,

    This is the banlist for NU
     
  3. emac

    emac Emad

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    There are hardly any spinners left at all. Time for a hazard abusing team.
     
  4. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    You're forgetting about Eviolite and the fact that everything hits softer than LU, so some of the other spinners are a lot more viable. Tentacool, Cryogonal(who works very well in LU), Torkoal's been doing well, hell Starmie may even work.
     
  5. 114

    114 Guest

    Smeargle needs to go lol. BORKED
     
  6. IFM

    IFM HODOR HODOR HODOR

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    I think you meant Staryu
     
  7. Yuki Nagato

    Yuki Nagato Member

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    Somewhat Viable Rapid Spinners in NU: Eviolite Wartortle, Kabutops, Torkoal, Cryogonal, Eviolite Tentacool and Smeargle.

    I think that's about it. Out of all of them, i'd say Kabutops and Cryogonal are probably your best bet.
     
  8. Latias11

    Latias11 Member

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    What viable toxic spikers are in NU? The only two I can think of atm are tentacool and pineco (fortress prevo)

    EDIT: Actually, I've just found Rosila, Whirllipede, Garbidor, Omnate.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
  9. Archerknight

    Archerknight Legends

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    Gothielle might be very good in NU. Able to trap things.

    PINSIR, here we come.

    Also, Rotom-F might be good.

    And then I say something like "hail" and we all go crazy.

    Baton Pass: Mawile, Ninjask, Mr. Mime, Smeargle, Gligar
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
  10. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    well, Pupitar might be good in NU bulky EVs Rest, DD, EQ, Stone Edge/Rock Slide with eviolite.

    NFE sTall is going to be prominent.

    i'll add more in later.
     
  11. HSOWA

    HSOWA Majestic Server Moderator Server Moderator

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    Everyone's forgetting about Wobbuffet... Encore is now better with that bug being fixed. Encore a weak/Ghost move [Preferrably one that won't take a huge chunk of your health], switch in Linoone, and voila, you're ready for a sweep :D
    Also, Rain to dominate? There's Persian, Ludicolo AND Kabutops .-.
     
  12. Django

    Django UNCHAINED

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    Rain won't dominate TOO much, hail is around remember, as are roselia and Alomola, who can check Ludi and Kabutops
     
  13. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

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    HSOWA, Linoone isn't allowed in NU.

    Man I don't want hail. Especially with no hippo.
     
  14. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    Surprised to see Kabutops and Ludicolo down here, unless something like eviolite Frillish starts getting popular I can't imagine there's much to stop them from wreaking havoc in this tier. Also we lost Aggron, I was looking forward to CB Head Smash...
     
  15. abhicherath

    abhicherath Guest

    Im pissed. ninja bug isnt NU....gay. claydol's still hanging in UU?i seriously thought it was LU. i theorymon that rain will be seriously broken. persian sets it up liek a BAWS, ludicolo replenishes and kabutops...well rapes. aslo Why the fuck are all the decent sun abusers LU?i mean vileplume?rly?i wanted to use that thing one my NU sun team.\
    Regigigas is LU?WTF?some genius set has been discovered or something?
    and wobba will go, im abusing him happily in OU right now.wobba and duggy are NU,u see where i am going going with this?TICKLE WOBBUFET!!!
     
  16. astrohawke

    astrohawke Member

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    I think this is a problem as well. Is the tier decided by usage on the LU ladder? because that is just vastly inaccurate as the LU ladder isn't even that popular. Theoretically, I can use luvdisc and spam the ladder all day and make it LU? Considering there were only 3500 battles, a single person who ladders in LU a lot could easily heavily influence the usage statistics. Using data from wifi OU is probably a better indication of the extent a pokemon is actually being used as it offers a better sampling pool.

    The flaw in the current system is extremely obvious when you consider pokemon like ludicolo who actually have fairly high usages in OU. Certainly not something I would classify as never used.
     
  17. NeonKecleon

    NeonKecleon New Member

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    ...

    After playing NU for a few hours, I mainly see:
    1. Barely ANY Spinners (Phazer teams are gonna LOVE that...)
    2. Rain Teams (All featuring the Mexi-Pineapple-Duck and Sir Cuts-a-lot)
    3. Surprisingly, not a single Hail Team.
    4. Most annoying in my opinion, Spore-Smashpassing Smeargle (How exactly is this LU?)

    NU...needs some work...
     
  18. Vietpride

    Vietpride Member

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    Is there something wrong with Toxicroak? I put a nothing on Toxicroak and it can be use in NU.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
  19. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Right, I forgot to account for any pokemon that dropped into LU or UU. They're added in now(including Toxicroak).
     
  20. Xdevo

    Xdevo The bear was upon Tom Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Its a lot harder to influence stats than you'd think, currently I have only 550 or so battles, and I'm one of the people on the most. Its barely possible to get something to above 4% by yourself. Actually, I'd imagine it be much simply to so in OU, where you have a near endless stream of battles.
     
  21. marmoteo

    marmoteo Member

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    My thoughts on NU so far:

    - Lol at Regigigas being LU. It is... rather funny :P

    - Baton Pass is VERY viable with Smeargle, Ninjask, and Mr. Mime being in the same tier. You got a few Stored Power users such as Flareon and Musharna too.

    - On that note, Smeargle is EVERYWHERE.

    - Hail is even more useful here than in LU, since things like Jynx, Glaceon, Rotom-F, and Cryogonal are around.

    - Rain is one annoying thing to face. Ludicolo and Kabutops are really stronf ;_;.

    - Lots of Toxic Spikes, and with Regen Cores not present, the metagame is a lot less stall-ish.
     
  22. abhicherath

    abhicherath Guest

    well guys kabutops is a RAD s(p)inner, eviolite wartortle is surprisingly bulky,its a great spinner too....pity u need heal bell support for it to work well.it also has HAZE(breed from quaggy) and that pretty much neuters B-pass, fuck it can rest off t-spikes.
    i dont get why duggy is NU.wobbtrio is so borked
    WOO 75. mah fave numbah
     
  23. astrohawke

    astrohawke Member

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    One person influencing the stats by themselves is an exaggeration but the stats are obviously affected by the few people who ladder on LU and their teams. 3500 battles in a 2 month period is around 60 battles a day. Not difficult for a few people to do over 24 hours. Compared to over 250,000 battles or over 4000 battles a day, it's a big difference. But regardless, the way the tiers are determined is obviously flawed. When something is NU, it should actually be never used in OU. Not have usage higher than most of the pokemon in UU.
     
  24. Cake

    Cake Member

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    Flareon has Stored Power? Wow, Trollfreak. Wow.
     
  25. Django

    Django UNCHAINED

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    @Astro, not necessarily, What about Porygon2 last gen? It fulfilled a great niche role in OU by checking Salamence and Gyarados, but it still fit neatly into NU aswell (of course Eviolite has changed this). There was no reason to get rid of it from NU, despite the fact it was used in OU. And what about Quagsire and Primape? they both got used in Ubers, but again, there was no need to remove them from NU.

    Now if you actually look at the OU stats then Smeargle is the first NU Pokemon to appear at 2%, and we all agree that should go anyway so that is an anomaly. The next is Kabutops at 1.35% and it only sees that tiny amount of usage due to Politoed. Walrein is just below this, again as it fulfills a niche role on Hail teams. Dugtrio Exeggutor Cradily are all just below this, and guess what, they all are niche roles on weather teams. After that you get to Sawsbuck at 0.8%, which is 269 battles, and by this point I think you would agree that could easily have been done by 1 or 2 people. Just because something has a niche role it fulfills in OU does not mean it should be banned from NU, especially when you consider things such as Kabutops and Cradily are no where near as useful without their perma weather (Kabutops is still broken with Dmap Rock around, but hopefully we can fix that). I do not feel there is any need to re-evaluate the way the tiers are made, it appears to be working so far.

    EDIT: I missed Ludicolo, but it still falls under the niche point.

    Also Smeargle is below 23 UU pokemon in the OU list, it doesn't "have higher usage than most of the Pokemon in UU". And if you actually look at the sets, it is being used to primarily pass Belly Drum or Ingrain, 2 things only it can do, hence being another niche Pokemon.
     
  26. astrohawke

    astrohawke Member

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    I still feel that you need a better sampling pool to determine what actually gets used and what doesn't. At some point, if I don't like something in NU, I may just spam use it on the LU ladder to see if I can get it moved up and to prove a point. 60 battles a day doesn't seem so hard to accomplish.
     
  27. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx the business business

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    Hail is so fun to use with Sealeo and Specs Glaceon.

    Scarf Emboar is incredibly good, revenging most of the tier such as DD Crawdaunt, the 3 monkeys (red monkey after SR), Manetric, and tons more. Basically it can outpase most things and 1hko them.

    Roselia is really good to use, Spikes and Tspikes support with incredible SpD. It hard walls and sets up on many evolite walls such as Frillish, Alomola, Cottonee, etc 90%+ of Grasses and Waters

    Edit: Fraxure and Zweilous are extremely powerful, especially Zweilous.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2011
  28. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

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    I think that eviolite should be suspect. It augments the tier extremely; for every evolved wall, you'll find three non-evolved ones willing to take its place. It slows the metagame down (instead of tanks like Snorlax we have the equivalent of Shuckle on most teams), and I don't think that it helps the tier at all. Either test the item as a whole, or in a few extreme cases (munchlax and porygon comes to mind), because I don't enjoy playing a tier where it's OU-lite.

    Of course, keeping in mind that this is only a few days into NU. But if it's so obvious now, waiting will only make it more obvious.
     
  29. Django

    Django UNCHAINED

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    While munchlax and porygon do get defenses to their Ou counterparts, they share the same weaknesses, which are arguably easier to exploit here, because of the very reduced offensive presence. Something like bulk up haryiama can set up on both of those. Taunt, toxic and toxic spikes will also quickly spell an end to most eviolite mons. If you are having trouble with them, carry more stallbreakers and bulky set up pokemon.
     
  30. emac

    emac Emad

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    This set is fantastic. 360 in def and spec def and a great cleric.

    Misdreavus (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 Def / 136 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Heal Bell
    - Pain Split
     
  31. Bazz

    Bazz I'm not active anymore.

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    People seem to be forgetting Knock Off, it breaks everything with Eviolite.
     
  32. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    Actually over the two months of stats there were a bit less than one month of stats collected, so multiply the number by two.
    .
     
  33. Xdevo

    Xdevo The bear was upon Tom Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    That's how tiers work, you can do that in UU for LU and OU for UU, it is a little more difficult in those tiers (actually it could be easier, you are more likely to get a battle without waiting 10 mins.) It could be changed, but should things that have a tiny niche in OU (Porygon-2 last gen, Ludicolo, Kabutops, and the Lv. 1 Sturdy pokemon) be banned from lower tiers?

    Also, getting 60 battles would be VERY hard to do on a ladder as small as LU's, I'm lucky if I can get 10 or so on the 8 or so hours I'm usually on a day. LU's ladder doesn't give near instant battles like Wifi does.
     
  34. Judas

    Judas Member

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    Eviolite has definitely revolutionized lower tiers but I wouldn't say it's overpowered. Anything with an Eviolite usually has very little offensive presence and although their defenses are pretty good, they usually have a really low HP stat. Knock Off really screws with Eviolite holders and can potentially punish the user for using too many things relying on it. I can understand it being annoying but it's certainly not something worth complaining about. Now Wobbuffet, that's something to complain about.
     
  35. mael

    mael np: diary

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    hitmonlee is in BL3 too i guess, because it has only 2% usage
    also wobba is kinda broken because it allows stff like linoone to set up
    ludicolo is srsly broken there is nothing that really walls
    we will have to suspect a lot in this tier S:
     
  36. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    I just want to say that specially defensive Ludicolo(with rain dish) is a complete stop to offensive Ludicolo, but I still believe that rain is broken.
     
  37. mael

    mael np: diary

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    you forgot hp bug ;P
    jk lol but the thing is this is killed by qwilfish
    and if the only counter for something is itself then its definitly broken


    another pokemon i think it should be banned is wobbufet
    encoring something in this slow tier is not difficult and you can set up belly drum linoone or DD crawdaunt or something
    also its nearly always 2-3 kills even if you predict right if this doesnt deserve a ban then nothing does
     
  38. 114

    114 Guest

    I feel Wobbafett is definitely broken. Killing all scarfers instantly, letting pokemon set up (NU is a huge set up tier), and destroying walls with tickle.

    Rain is definitely annoying, and I think Ludicolo should be suspected - not damp rock. Still, I think wobb is way more broken than rain atm.
     
  39. Oh So Shoddy

    Oh So Shoddy Devil's Advocate

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    Ludicolo definitely has great offensive presence in the tier, However, I don't think he's strong enough be considered broken.

    Ludi's viability being discussed is interesting when you add the Eviolite into the equation. Roselia, a very common poke in the tier is often, if not always paired with the item. With an Eviolite equipped, a max specially defensive set can actually take 2 Life Orb'd Ice Beams while 2hko'ing back w/ Sludge Bomb. Of course this is not a sure fire counter since almost any hazard ruins the strategy. Another poke I've seen utilizing the Eviolite is Golbat who - believe it or not - can survive an Ice Beam to the face (or the more powerful Surf, under rain) without any defensive investment and ohko back w/ Brave Bird.

    It's somewhat a suicide mission in both cases but nevertheless, it shows that the Eviolite can help balance the tier by neutralizing offensive threats while giving otherwise forgotten poke a chance at life in the arena.

    Instead of these desperate maneuvers, pokemon like CurseMuk can take Ludicolo's attacks fairly well while ohko'ing back with a combination of Poison Jab and Shadow Sneak (also factoring in Life Orb recoil, though not always necessary).

    As for Wobbuffet... I don't even want to discuss him. Just ban him already.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  40. emac

    emac Emad

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    What do you guys think of ninjask?