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[BW2] Little Cup UnderUsed Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LC' started by Whereabouts Unknown, Aug 8, 2011.

  1. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Little Cup already has an Uber tier and a tier resembling OverUsed. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what checks and balances, walls and sweepers, offensive and defensive cores wait to be unveiled in a Little Cup UnderUsed tier?

    I don't know what it takes to suggest the creation of a new tier, but I'd like to bring up the possiblity of it in this thread. I think LC UU would be very interesting, at least, and if my predictions are correct, very balanced and very fun. No, it wouldn't be played often, but at least it would bring one more tier into the tournament rotation, right? It'd also spice up the forums with an extra stream for RMTs. Also, what harm could be done in adding another tier? At worst no one will play it, but I think it'll be fun.

    So what are your thoughts? I'd love to see Little Cup Underused be made. But maybe I'm the only one. In any case, it's fun to dream, so what are your anticipations / envisions of what a standard LC UU team might be? What providence do you see? What I see potential in is, like Standard UU in the recent generations, a prevalence of balance and bulky offence. This I would love. FGW cores could see some pretty nice use, and there are very few hard hitters below the 4% usage line.

    Please make your teams based on the following tiering:

    EDIT: TIERING
    The following are considered OU LC.
    [secret]
    Abra
    Bronzor
    Chinchou
    Croagunk
    Diglett
    Dratini
    Drilbur
    Duskull
    Dwebble
    Elekid
    Ferroseed
    Frillish
    Gastly
    Hippopotas
    Houndour
    Lileep
    Machop
    Magnemite
    Meowth
    Mienfoo
    Munchlax
    Natu
    Omanyte
    Pawniard
    Porygon
    Slowpoke
    Snover
    Staryu
    Stunky
    Timburr
    [/secret]

    Everything below this are LC UU.
    [secret]
    Anorith
    Aron
    Aipom
    Axew
    Azurill
    Bagon
    Barboach
    Beldum
    Bellsprout
    Bidoof
    Bonsly
    Budew
    Buisel
    Bulbasaur
    Buneary
    Burmy
    Cacnea
    Charmander
    Caterpie
    Cherubi
    Chikorita
    Chimchar
    Chingling
    Cinccino
    Clampearl
    Cleffa
    Combee
    Corphish
    Cranidos
    Cottonee
    Cubchoo
    Cubone
    Cyndaquil
    Darumaka
    Deerling
    Deino
    Doduo
    Drifloon
    Drowzee
    Ducklett
    Eevee
    Ekans
    Electrike
    Exeggcute
    Feebas
    Finneon
    Foongus
    Geodude
    Gible
    Glameow
    Goldeen
    Golett
    Gothita
    Grimer
    Growlithe
    Gulpin
    Happiny
    Hoothoot
    Hoppip
    Horsea
    Igglybuff
    Joltik
    Kabuto
    Karrablast
    Klink
    Koffing
    Kricketot
    Larvesta
    Larvitar
    Ledyba
    Lillipup
    Lotad
    Magikarp
    Magby
    Makuhita
    Mankey
    Mareep
    Mime Jr.
    Mudkip
    Munna
    Nidoran-F
    Nidoran-M
    Nincada
    Nosepass
    Numel
    Oddish
    Oshawott
    Panpour
    Pansage
    Pansear
    Paras
    Patrat
    Petilil
    Phanpy
    Pidove
    Pichu
    Pidgey
    Pineco
    Piplup
    Poliwag
    Ponyta
    Poochyena
    Psyduck
    Purrloin
    Ralts
    Rattata
    Remoraid
    Rhyhorn
    Riolu
    Roggenrola
    Sandile
    Sandshrew
    Seedot
    Seel
    Sentret
    Sewaddle
    Shellder
    Shelmet
    Shieldon
    Shinx
    Shroomish
    Shuppet
    Skitty
    Skorupi
    Slakoth
    Slugma
    Smoochum
    Snorunt
    Snubbull
    Solosis
    Spearow
    Spheal
    Spinarak
    Spoink
    Squirtle
    Starly
    Sunkern
    Surskit
    Swablu
    Swinub
    Teddiursa
    Tentacool
    Tepig
    Tirtouga
    Togepi
    Torchic
    Totodile
    Trapinch
    Treecko
    Trubbish
    Turtwig
    Tympole
    Tynamo
    Tyrogue
    Vanillite
    Voltorb
    Wailmer
    Weedle
    Whismur
    Wingull
    Woobat
    Wooper
    Wurmple
    Wynaut
    Yamask
    Zigzagoon
    Zubat
    Zorua
    [/secret]

    THREAT LIST FOR TEAM BUILDING AVAIABLE HERE.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2011
  2. PichiTheShinyPichu

    PichiTheShinyPichu I'm not amused

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    I may be stupid, but I can see Wailmer being viable as a late-game sweeper.

    Paring with a scarf, it can wipe out Sandshrew, Growlithe, and Lavitar with Water Spout, while also attacking Bulbasuar and Bagon with Ice Beam.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2011
  3. (13:44:40) -AlphaAmpharos-: We should have an LC UU tier, where things like Riolu, Piplup, Zorua and Croagunk can play.

    Three minutes later, Whereabouts Unknown makes this thread. Damn WU you're fast. O_O

    Anyway, I guess I did come up with the idea and yes I do really think the tier is an excellent idea!

    LC is filled with options, but some of them are just out-classed by many others, for example I had an idea of Budew as a spiker, but Ferroseed outclasses it at that.
    Then there is Piplup for a Stealth Rocker, which I find an interesting idea too.

    So yes, I really do think this tier should exist.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2011
  4. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    the only issue i see with LC UU is the sheer lack of things to put in it here is what would be in the tier according to the ranked stats (assuming 4% cutoff):

    Anorith
    Aron
    Aipom
    Azurill
    Bagon
    Barboach
    Beldum
    Bellsprout
    Bidoof
    Bonsly
    Budew
    Bulbasaur
    Buneary
    Burmy
    Cacnea
    Charmander
    Caterpie
    Cherubi
    Chikorita
    Chimchar
    Chingling
    Cinccino
    Clampearl
    Cleffa
    Combee
    Corphish
    Cranidos
    Cottonee
    Cubchoo
    Cubone
    Cyndaquil
    Deerling
    DeinoDoduo
    Drifloon
    Drowzee
    Ducklett
    Dwebble
    Eevee
    Ekans
    Electrike
    Exeggcute
    Feebas
    Finneon
    Foongus
    Geodude
    Gible
    Glameow
    Goldeen
    Golett
    Gothita
    Grimer
    Growlithe
    Gulpin
    Happiny
    Hoothoot
    Hoppip
    Horsea
    Igglybuff
    Joltik
    Kabuto
    Karrablast
    Klink
    Koffing
    Kricketot
    Larvesta
    Larvitar
    Ledyba
    Lillipup
    Lotad
    Magikarp
    Magby
    Magnemite
    Makuhita
    Mankey
    Mareep
    Marill
    Mime Jr.
    Mudkip
    Munna
    Nidoran-F
    Nidoran-M
    Nincada
    Nosepass
    Numel
    Oddish
    Oshawott
    Panpour
    Pansage
    Pansear
    Paras
    Patrat
    Petilil
    Phanpy
    Pidove
    Pichu
    Pidgey
    Pineco
    Piplup
    Poliwag
    Ponyta
    Poochyena
    Porygon
    Psyduck
    Purrloin
    Ralts
    Rattata
    Remoraid
    Rhyhorn
    Riolu
    Roggenrola
    Sandile
    Sandshrew
    Seedot
    Seel
    Sentret
    Sewaddle
    Shellder
    Shelmet
    Shieldon
    Shinx
    Shroomish
    Shuppet
    Skitty
    Skorupi
    Slakoth
    Slugma
    Smoochum
    Snorunt
    Snubbull
    Solosis
    Spearow
    Spheal
    Spinarak
    Spoink
    Squirtle
    Starly
    Stunky
    Sunkern
    Surskit
    Swablu
    Swinub
    Teddiursa
    Tentacool
    Tepig
    Tirtouga
    Togepi
    Torchic
    Totodile
    Treecko
    Trubbish
    Turtwig
    Tympole
    Tynamo
    Tyrogue
    Vanillite
    Voltorb
    Wailmer
    Weedle
    Whismur
    Wingull
    Woobat
    Wooper
    Wurmple
    Wynaut
    Yamask
    Zigzagoon
    Zubat
    Zorua[/HIDE]


    i see maybe 45 pokemon that really are worth much here they are bolded (and remember the nature of theory-mon more things fail to meet expectations that suceed).


    edit 1:Well added more pokemon to the list it is now accurate though Gen 4 (the resource i found to make this was still on gen 4) there may be mistakes if so let me know so they can be fixed.

    Edit 2:Ok, i've completed the list straight up through gen 5.

    Edit 3: the entire list is in alphabetical order hope this proves useful to someone.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2011
  5. Mestre Nando

    Mestre Nando Member

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    LC UU seems a very good idea, actually.
    LC is a different metagame, in which some pokemon outclass others, by far, like in "Standard" tiers (Ubers/OU/UU/LU/NU). That kind of outclass makes some pokemon unused, underrated, even though they can still outclass many others in the same tier. Then, why not to create a UU tier for LC ? I see no reason. Would be simply great. ^^

    That could also "open doors" for unused pokemon, that could happen to be great pokemon at the new tier, surprising many people, making an advancement in the metagame, tier, etc...
     
  6. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    well just posting to say i've compiled a complete list of pokemon that would be in the potential LC UU tier in my previous post, if there are any mistakes or if a mod wants me to reformat it (say if it is needed to implement the tier the reason it is the way it is, is because i copy and pasted into word for the various resources to check against the ban list and the "OU" list as well as what i had already compiled before editing it into my original post) just PM me or post here.

    @above have you looked at gibles speed and cyndaquil has its niche due to eruption.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2011
  7. Man-Bear-Pig

    Man-Bear-Pig Member

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    This sounds like a great idea, I'd love it. It would give pokemon like the starters a chance to shine.
     
  8. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    DeepSeaScale is better on a Defensive Clamperl IMO. :P
    Although it means you can only wall on 1 side of the spectrum (bar Iron Defense).
     
  9. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Bagon Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Porygon: 57.69% - 69.23%
    252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Bagon Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Magnemite: 31.82% - 40.91%
    252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Bagon Brick Break vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Magnemite: 54.55% - 72.73%​

    Those are your best bets for piviting around it. Other than that, Pory can beat the DD set. I don't think anything else can fight Bagon. However, Little Cup has always been fast paced. I doubt Growlithe has any counters either, but it shouldn't be deemed too powerful in my opinion. Bagon just has it, the right stats, the right STAB, (with only 2 uu mons resisting it), and the right defensive typing.​

    In my opinion it should be LC BL. But it's not up to me is it?​

    So we'll do some testing and stuff. I might change my mind.​

    What are you guys' opinion on Bagon? In theorymon it's borked as hell but... it's just not fast enough with Band, and without Band it loses to Pory2. Scarfs are common enough to check it at every turn. Also, once it locks into Outrage Magnemite kills it. (More arguments coming soon. Also the sets we're suspecting coming soon.)

    Bagon (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rock Head
    EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 40 SDef / 196 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Outrage
    - Brick Break
    - Dragon Claw / Draco Meteor
    - Fire Fang

    This is the Band set, which has virtually no counters. But it's difficult to pull off as its user (I speak from experience, I've used it and had it used against me and neither time was it very devastating). With perfect prediction is could be unstoppable, but I don't see it doing as well as I'd originally anticipated.

    Bagon (F) @ Oran Berry
    Trait: Rock Head
    EVs: 236 Atk / 40 Def / 36 SDef / 196 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Brick Break

    Also in theory unstoppable. In my opinion it's more threatening than the band set, as it sets up on many top-tier mons, but it's still not amazing. With Magneton being the only thing to stop it from killing the whole metagame after two boosts, it is a serious threat to take into consideration. But is it too much? I'm starting to think not so. Firstly, it'll only usually get one boost, against something like Bulbasaur / Larvitar, and at that point, scarfers can force it out, meaning that it's either at low health or lacked its Oran Berry the next time it comes in, making it much harder to set up. While Bagon is very threatening I don't think it's quite over the top. Of course, there's only been like 10 battles of LC UU ever, so much more testing needs to be done.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2011
  10. Man-Bear-Pig

    Man-Bear-Pig Member

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    Yes, the most defensive clam set is this.

    Clamperl (M) @ DeepSeaScale
    Trait: Shell Armor
    EVs: 236 HP / 4 SAtk / 236 SDef / 20 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Barrier
    - Scald
     
  11. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Okay, I saw this thread before it had any posts and thought it could go somewhere cool... but its leading to theorymon and theorymon only (might want to take that word out of the title, WU). If I don't see some improvement on this, I will be closing it (which I really don't want to do because LC UU sounds like a lot of fun).

    I'll see about getting it implemented on the server, but don't get your hopes up, as LC is a has a really small playerbase as it is.
     
  12. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    @koko
    Just wondering, since this tier doesn't actually exist yet, what else can ya do but theorymon? :P
     
  13. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Make some teams and play some matches. That's what we did before there were any tiers not named OU :O
     
  14. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    This is the "tested in LC UU and it works" stack. If you have a set for a mon that you used in LC UU to much success, PM it to me and I'll post it here.

    @Koko About five of us have played some matches on the server. I'll post some logs if need be, but they don't describe much. Which is exactly why I made this thread - to rally interest for more people to test. We have tested several sets, but we can't know how well they really work until a full metagame develops. We've even done some suspecting on Bagon, described above. In fact, that's a great example of PracticeMon trumping TheoryMon, I thought Bagon would've been overpowered before we tested it.

    Also, these sets are those that have been used and are being used, so posting them will help organise a metagame, or so I scheme.

    EDIT: The Threat List has been moved to http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?8462-LC-UU-Threat-List&p=95659#post95659!
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011
  15. I played the tier against Whereabouts Unknown twice, and I've seen Whereabouts Unknown paly it quite a few times, and we're trying to spread the word and encourage some others.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2011
  16. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Awesome that's good to know. Logs would be cool, if only to prove that there's a real interest in the tier so that it might get implemented easier :D

    I'll make a team myself once I get a chance.
     
  17. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    personally the title would be better served as potential, also gotten 143 of the 171 pokemon that would be legal in the tier alphabatized in my first post i'll get the rest tommorow or if i get a chance later tonight.

    and any luck i'll find time to make a team tommorow.

    Edit: well found time to finish alphabetizing the list if it is needed in an alternate format for whatever reason let me know and i'll take care of that (though this only took 2 hour 15 minutes + already).

    Here is the Full tier list this way people don't have to bounce from WU's post a few up to my first post which is lick #6 overall in the thread while building teams.

    Anorith
    Aron
    Aipom
    Azurill
    Bagon
    Barboach
    Beldum
    Bellsprout
    Bidoof
    Bonsly
    Budew
    Bulbasaur
    Buneary
    Burmy
    Cacnea
    Charmander
    Caterpie
    Cherubi
    Chikorita
    Chimchar
    Chingling
    Cinccino
    Clampearl
    Cleffa
    Combee
    Corphish
    Cranidos
    Cottonee
    Cubchoo
    Cubone
    Cyndaquil
    Deerling
    DeinoDoduo
    Drifloon
    Drowzee
    Ducklett
    Dwebble
    Eevee
    Ekans
    Electrike
    Exeggcute
    Feebas
    Finneon
    Foongus
    Geodude
    Gible
    Glameow
    Goldeen
    Golett
    Gothita
    Grimer
    Growlithe
    Gulpin
    Happiny
    Hoothoot
    Hoppip
    Horsea
    Igglybuff
    Joltik
    Kabuto
    Karrablast
    Klink
    Koffing
    Kricketot
    Larvesta
    Larvitar
    Ledyba
    Lillipup
    Lotad
    Magikarp
    Magby
    Magnemite
    Makuhita
    Mankey
    Mareep
    Marill
    Mime Jr.
    Mudkip
    Munna
    Nidoran-F
    Nidoran-M
    Nincada
    Nosepass
    Numel
    Oddish
    Oshawott
    Panpour
    Pansage
    Pansear
    Paras
    Patrat
    Petilil
    Phanpy
    Pidove
    Pichu
    Pidgey
    Pineco
    Piplup
    Poliwag
    Ponyta
    Poochyena
    Porygon
    Psyduck
    Purrloin
    Ralts
    Rattata
    Remoraid
    Rhyhorn
    Riolu
    Roggenrola
    Sandile
    Sandshrew
    Seedot
    Seel
    Sentret
    Sewaddle
    Shellder
    Shelmet
    Shieldon
    Shinx
    Shroomish
    Shuppet
    Skitty
    Skorupi
    Slakoth
    Slugma
    Smoochum
    Snorunt
    Snubbull
    Solosis
    Spearow
    Spheal
    Spinarak
    Spoink
    Squirtle
    Starly
    Stunky
    Sunkern
    Surskit
    Swablu
    Swinub
    Teddiursa
    Tentacool
    Tepig
    Tirtouga
    Togepi
    Torchic
    Totodile
    Treecko
    Trubbish
    Turtwig
    Tympole
    Tynamo
    Tyrogue
    Vanillite
    Voltorb
    Wailmer
    Weedle
    Whismur
    Wingull
    Woobat
    Wooper
    Wurmple
    Wynaut
    Yamask
    Zigzagoon
    Zubat
    Zorua[/HIDE]
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2011
  18. Bazz

    Bazz I'm not active anymore.

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    I really like the idea, and I'll be sure to test this out! Squirtle/Charmander/Bulbasaur gonna wreck! :D
     
  19. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Changed the thread title, as it has indeed moved beyond TheoryMon. Thanks Koko c:

    I encourage everyone to use the sets in the post a few before this one and more importantly, create counters to them and use them as well. If they work well enough, PM them to me, I'll put them in the threat list and they, too, will become standard, and others will counter it in return.

    Similarly, if you find a mon that's just way to overpowered you could post here. I'm worried about Panpour... there's absolutely no way to stop it, and even if it doesn't get the boost from Nasty Plot it can throttle offensive teams by simply being as fast and versitle as it is.

    Anyways, I'm off to go sleep for a bit, I've been doing this LC UU thing for 8 hours straight. Gl making the metagame and have fun exploring the possiblities.
     
  20. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    About Porygon.

    When this tier was made, Porygon had ~3% usage, so it was allowed in uu. However, it has 6.6% usage by July's statistics. So the question is, Porygon for uu or ou?

    Most existing teams are built with Porygon in mind. If Pory went ou, the game would change severely; it is the only check to many offensive threats. If it were not viable in uu, offensive teams would become very dominant and balanced teams would be no more. For the sake of keeping the metagame more balanced and healthy, I strongly suggest that an exception be made for Pory.

    Also, don't forget that Pory is nowhere near overpowered. Toxic ruins it, entry hazzards mess it up bad, and many popular attacks from Growlithe, Sandile, Bagon, and Panpour 2HKO it. There's also a prevalance of Fighting- types in the tier. I'd like you all to seriously consider this, but I'll make no move if I'm outvoted.
     
  21. Bazz

    Bazz I'm not active anymore.

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    Honestly, Porygon is broken. With the simple set of BoltBeam, T-Wave and Recover, it can tank hits like a boss while dishing out decent damage. Growlithe with Intimidate doesn't even 2HKO, since Porygon comes in on Growlithe with Trace, and Intimidates it. Even though I'd like it to stay (because of Sandile), I really don't think it should be allowed. People will eventually figure out ways to deal with the stuff Porygon used to deal with, and I think that this will lead to a more balanced metagame than the hyper offense we have at the moment.
     
  22. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    um what happened to the posts that existed just before the server issues (ok mainly just me and WU coordinating our tier lists though i had moved the list i had put together down towards the bottom so people have it right next to WU's sets as well as a couple of my own).

    i'm editing the tier list i've compiled into my previous post as that way it is just below WU's set compilation.

    Edit: also just so we have a log since the one WU had up earlier is MIA i've tracked down the battle i had with WU annoyingly haxy but w/e.

    Battle between fidgety and Whereabouts Unknown started!

    Tier: LC Wifi
    Rule: Unrated
    Rule: Sleep Clause
    Rule: Freeze Clause
    Rule: Species Clause
    Rule: Wifi Battle
    Rule: Self-KO Clause

    Whereabouts Unknown sent out Sandshrew!
    fidgety sent out Mankey!

    Start of turn 1
    Mankey used U-turn!
    The foe's Sandshrew lost 16% of its health!
    fidgety called Mankey back!
    fidgety sent out Squirtle!

    The foe's Sandshrew used Stealth Rock!
    Pointed stones float in the air around fidgety's team!

    Start of turn 2
    Squirtle used Fake Out!
    The foe's Sandshrew lost 8% of its health!

    The foe's Sandshrew flinched!

    Start of turn 3
    Whereabouts Unknown called Sandshrew back!
    Whereabouts Unknown sent out Bulbasaur!

    Squirtle used Rapid Spin!
    The foe's Bulbasaur lost 8% of its health!
    Squirtle blew away Stealth Rock!

    Start of turn 4
    fidgety called Squirtle back!
    fidgety sent out Paras!

    The foe's Bulbasaur used Giga Drain!
    It's not very effective...
    Paras lost 1 HP! (4% of its health)
    Paras had its energy drained!

    Start of turn 5
    The foe's Bulbasaur used Sludge Bomb!
    It's super effective!
    Paras lost 14 HP! (63% of its health)

    Paras used Spore!
    The foe's Bulbasaur fell asleep!

    Start of turn 6
    fidgety called Paras back!
    fidgety sent out Chimchar!

    The foe's Bulbasaur is fast asleep!

    Start of turn 7
    Whereabouts Unknown called Bulbasaur back!
    Whereabouts Unknown sent out Panpour!

    Chimchar used Stealth Rock!
    Pointed stones float in the air around Whereabouts Unknown's team!

    Start of turn 8
    fidgety called Chimchar back!
    fidgety sent out Paras!

    The foe's Panpour used Nasty Plot!
    The foe's Panpour's Sp. Att. sharply rose!

    Start of turn 9
    The foe's Panpour used Ice Beam!
    It's super effective!
    Paras lost 7 HP! (31% of its health)
    Paras fainted!
    The foe's Panpour is hurt by its Life Orb!

    fidgety sent out Chimchar!

    Start of turn 10
    Chimchar used Fake Out!
    A critical hit!
    The foe's Panpour lost 52% of its health!
    Chimchar is hurt by its Life Orb!

    The foe's Panpour flinched!

    Start of turn 11
    Chimchar used Vacuum Wave!
    The foe's Panpour lost 28% of its health!
    Chimchar is hurt by its Life Orb!

    The foe's Panpour used Surf!
    It's super effective!
    Chimchar lost 17 HP! (89% of its health)
    Chimchar fainted!
    The foe's Panpour is hurt by its Life Orb!
    The foe's Panpour fainted!

    Whereabouts Unknown sent out Bagon!
    Pointed stones dug into the foe's Bagon!

    fidgety sent out Squirtle!

    Start of turn 12
    Whereabouts Unknown called Bagon back!
    Whereabouts Unknown sent out Porygon!
    Pointed stones dug into the foe's Porygon!

    The foe's Porygon traced Squirtle's Torrent!
    Squirtle used Fake Out!
    The foe's Porygon lost 7% of its health!

    Start of turn 13
    Squirtle used Ice Punch!
    The foe's Porygon lost 11% of its health!
    The foe's Porygon was frozen solid!

    The foe's Porygon is frozen solid!

    Start of turn 14
    fidgety called Squirtle back!
    fidgety sent out Aron!

    The foe's Porygon is frozen solid!

    Start of turn 15
    Whereabouts Unknown called Porygon back!
    Whereabouts Unknown sent out Sandshrew!
    Pointed stones dug into the foe's Sandshrew!
    Bazz is watching the battle.

    Aron used Rock Polish!
    Aron's Speed sharply rose!

    Start of turn 16
    Aron used Iron Head!
    The foe's Sandshrew lost 25% of its health!

    The foe's Sandshrew used Earthquake!
    It's super effective!
    A critical hit!
    Aron lost 21 HP! (100% of its health)
    Aron fainted!

    fidgety sent out Squirtle!

    Start of turn 17
    Squirtle used Fake Out!
    A critical hit!
    The foe's Sandshrew lost 20% of its health!

    The foe's Sandshrew flinched!

    Start of turn 18
    Squirtle used Ice Punch!
    It's super effective!
    The foe's Sandshrew lost 25% of its health!
    The foe's Sandshrew fainted!

    Whereabouts Unknown sent out Growlithe!
    Pointed stones dug into the foe's Growlithe!

    The foe's Growlithe intimidates Squirtle!
    Squirtle's Attack fell!

    Start of turn 19
    Squirtle used Aqua Jet!
    It's super effective!
    The foe's Growlithe lost 36% of its health!

    The foe's Growlithe used Wild Charge!
    It's super effective!
    Squirtle lost 12 HP! (52% of its health)
    The foe's Growlithe is hit with recoil!
    The foe's Growlithe is hurt by its Life Orb!

    Start of turn 20
    Squirtle used Aqua Jet!
    It's super effective!
    The foe's Growlithe lost 18% of its health!
    The foe's Growlithe fainted!

    Whereabouts Unknown sent out Bagon!
    Pointed stones dug into the foe's Bagon!

    Start of turn 21
    The foe's Bagon used Outrage!
    Squirtle lost 11 HP! (47% of its health)
    Squirtle fainted!

    fidgety sent out Mankey!

    Start of turn 22
    Mankey used U-turn!
    Bazz stopped watching the battle.
    The foe's Bagon lost 38% of its health!
    fidgety called Mankey back!
    fidgety sent out Bagon!

    The foe's Bagon used Outrage!
    It's super effective!
    Bagon lost 22 HP! (100% of its health)
    Bagon fainted!

    The foe's Bagon calmed down!
    The foe's Bagon became confused!
    fidgety sent out Mankey!

    Start of turn 23
    Mankey used Close Combat!
    The foe's Bagon lost 42% of its health!
    The foe's Bagon fainted!
    Mankey's Defense fell!
    Mankey's Sp. Def. fell!

    Whereabouts Unknown sent out Bulbasaur!
    Pointed stones dug into the foe's Bulbasaur!

    Whereabouts Unknown: go bulba!

    Start of turn 24
    Mankey used Close Combat!
    It's not very effective...
    The foe's Bulbasaur lost 29% of its health!
    Mankey's Defense fell!
    Mankey's Sp. Def. fell!

    The foe's Bulbasaur is fast asleep!

    Start of turn 25
    Mankey used Close Combat!
    It's not very effective...
    The foe's Bulbasaur lost 25% of its health!
    Mankey's Defense fell!
    Mankey's Sp. Def. fell!

    The foe's Bulbasaur is fast asleep!

    Start of turn 26
    Mankey used Close Combat!
    It's not very effective...
    The foe's Bulbasaur lost 25% of its health!
    Mankey's Defense fell!
    Mankey's Sp. Def. fell!

    The foe's Bulbasaur woke up!
    The foe's Bulbasaur used Giga Drain!
    Mankey lost 22 HP! (100% of its health)
    Mankey fainted!
    Mankey had its energy drained!

    Whereabouts Unknown won the battle!
    Whereabouts Unknown: いい バトル よ
    Whereabouts Unknown: pro
    fidgety: gg
    Whereabouts Unknown: gg[/HIDE]

    also something to consider compiling a list of People who are working on testing out possiblities for the tier (kinda say hey we've got this many people interested in the tier) this way you aren't PM'ing a zillion logs to show the following the tier has gained.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2011
  23. Woah Woah Woah, let's not move to fast. Remember this tier doesn't exist yet, we still haven't tried and seen every Pokémon available and how good it performs. To be honest, it doesn't really look broken on paper.
    There is Mankey with it's STAB Close Combat, and a weakened Porygon dies to Growlithe's Close Combat too. I'm sure there should be other checks and counters, but I think we should just see how it works.
     
  24. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Unforunately, tiers don't work like this. I REALLY miss Miltank in LU: it wasn't anywhere near broken, and checked a ton of Physical threats and supported well. But no matter how much I whine, it is still UU by usage. The same goes for Porygon.
     
  25. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    @Amphy, the reason I think the topic of Porygon is impending and important is that eventually Bagon, Sandile, Gible, and Panpour will likely be suspected, and the tiering of Porygon is likely to affect their respective suspect discussions. Also, if Porygon goes now, it won't come back unless it drops in usage, so I must make my last stand! >=O!

    I'll do my best to be unbaised in this statement.

    It looks like Porygon's tiering comes down to three main topics:

    1. Is it too powerful to be allowed in UU?
    2. Is the metagame sufficiently with improved with it?
    3. Is it acceptable to break the rules of conventional tiering in order to better the tier?

    Topic 1 is rather split between the "pannel" here. I'll say this: it has many counters and there are enough mons it can't touch (Wooper, Likitung, Dekusan, Shelmet) that it doesn't fit the bill of "broken". But how do you define the overpowered-ness of a defensive mon? This is tricky, which is why walls are seldom banned. It's certainly true that Porygon can force out 70% of the tier. But it doesn't do anything that Chansey doesn't do in General OverUsed.

    Topic 2, it seems, has a general affirmitive from those who have played the tier suffiently (correct me if I'm wrong). However, Porygon has it's cons as well as pros, both supported with experience and battles whose logs I have.
    Pros:
    [secret]
    Porygon can sponge hits very well and is usable on both defensive and offensive teams. Porygon greatly increases the viablity of balanced, bulky offence, and even stall teams in UU.

    Metagames strongly overcentrilised generally have very direct purposes to them. For example, in GSC OU, one could never win a match if one couldn't hustle the opponents Raikou / Skarmory to take it down. Porygon is easily hussled, especially with entry hazzards support. Most common attacks do 30-40% min to it. Porygon makes balanced viable, but does not making heavy offence invalid. Thsu, Porygon makes the tier more diverse.

    Metagames are in general better when both sweepers and walls are present.
    [/secret]

    Cons:
    [secret]
    The effectiveness of several scarfed mons are severed by Porygon being used.

    Porygon being UU makes the metagame less fast-paced and less true to the basic features of Little Cup metagames.

    (Are there any more? I can't think of any =/)
    [/secret]

    Topic 3 is what makes Porygon most likely to be OU. It is OU. Randomly saying "Pokemon X is good in Metagame Y even though it's not allowed" will cause problems. "Jellicent is OU but it could be great in UU, checking bulky waters and CroCune. It has plenty of counters, Raikou, Celebi, Shaymin, Virizion, etc etc". But the fact is, if Topic 2 is agreed to, then we're denying ourselves a better metagame. It's a dumb argument for sure to make an exception, and while I would love to see Porygon in UU, I've proven my point agaisnt myself. Because rules trump opinion, Porygon will be OU, I'm pretty sure.

    I'd like some feedback on these topics, and which ones you agree to and which ones you don't. All 3 would have to have some heavy support (the third from auth as well which i s highly unlikely I expect) for Porygon to be UU.

    For me: 1. No, 2. Yes, and 3. Not really.

    Even if it is agreed that one cannot change tiering for the sake of bettering a tier, if Porygon's usage drops below 4% in the coming months, we can revisit Topic 1 at least, right? :D NO ONE USE PORYGON IN LC OU KTHXBAI
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2011
  26. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    as the post prior to yours WU stated a pokemon's impact upon a given tier does not impact weather or not its usage causes it to be removed from said tier.
     
  27. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    I realise this. Even though I want Porygon UU, I forsee the consequences of an exception being made - giving people an excuse to say "let's test X in tier Y even though it's in tier Z", and thta'll be done way to much. 'Reverse Suspect', I suppose it is. I think the only time this has been done in the history of the game is Latis being put into 4th Gen OU. I agree with you, and I'm not voting in my interests in this particual case.
     
  28. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    I'm really sorry about the (obvious) outcome of this Porygon situation, but the "Topic #3" says it all. Tiers simply don't work that way. If Porygon falls back into LC UU, then it will be allowed, but unless it does so, I can (almost) guarantee that PO wouldn't drop down a Pokemon just for the sake of doing it.
     
  29. Zeed Abby Yoga

    Zeed Abby Yoga Member

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    This is an ADORABLE TIER :D because of many sand in LC wifi so im bored and retired in LC and this thread come OH GOSH CANT WAIT TO SEE :D *o* Drifloon, golett, yamask & shuppet should be UU, if they're in OU we dont have any rapid blocker
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2011
  30. jjfish94

    jjfish94 Member

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    Awesome idea WU :D. Making a team this very moment. Hopefully we'll get a proper tier for it on the server so we can do tournaments and stuff.
     
  31. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    I will concede defeat on the matter. Porygon is officially OU >_>.

    On a separate note I'm listing Darumaka and Axew as BL.

    Darumaka, when scarfed, outspeeds the entire natural tier. With Adamant it reaches 19 Atk. Hustle puts that at 28. 28 Atk and 20 Spe right off the bat it insane - an instant Dragon Dance it is. There is of course reason to keep Darumaka UU - Stealth Rock weak, tendency to die to its own recoil, and Hustle's reduce accuracy. Growlithe in tandem with a bulky Water can tether it down, but one mispredict= dead poke. While Hustle makes the moves miss, it makes them too powerful - the only thing keeping Daru from being easily overpowered is the tendency of its moves to miss at opportune moments. However, when this miss doesn't occur, Daru easily scores 2-3 KOs in the course of a game, scouting switch-ins with U-turn then blasting witht he proper move. Daru can also, for the sake of overkill, run Choice Band. With this its power is just ridiculous... Jolly 36 Atk right off the bat... my god. Thus, with it being impossible to know Daru's item until you've lost a poke exploring it, and the ability of Daru to simply hit and run before taking any damage via U-turn (which loes 50%+ to nearly all non-walls), Darumaka is conisdered to powerful for UU. Unless someone talks me out of it (I had general approval for he idea on the server last night), it will be BL, at least for now. In the future, perhaps we can run an official suspect thread if necessary. But I don't see how it could be voted UU.

    Axew is freckin ridiculous. It, like Darumaka, can't 2HKO the entire tier. However, except for two pokes, Aron and Klink, it only needs one attack to do it. THis means it can switch into any of its many resistances and, if they don't have a steel (anymore), spam Outrage. Even if they have Klink, even the most defensive set is 3HKOd. Reversal OHKOs Aron if Axew is under 50%. Everything faster than Axew is OHKOd. Axew can switch into so many popular pokes with its many resistances and start 'raging. CB Axew is a perfect example of a poke it takes no skill and very little forethought and relies on no luck whatsoever to use and successfully take out 2-3 of the opponent's team. While the DD set requires good prediction to play well and good team building to support it, it is devastatingly hard to check. Everything that can 2HKO it throgh its Oran Berry (or OHKO it) it murdered by the CB set. And they can't really take a +1 Outrage very well. Bulky walls like Clamperl and Growlithe can take a hit but can't KO (Growlithe can burn but risks being subbed on). DD Axew also sets up on like 50% of the tier. I will deem is BL for now, but like Darumaka, the official PO LC UU might not have this ban. As it is currently a fan-run tier, I reserve the right to set up boundaries with general approval, which both Axew and Darumaka recevied.

    Jolly Axew has identical stats to Adamant Bagon with the exception of speed, which Axew has 2 more of (Axew: 16, Bagon: 14). This speed difference is what makes Axew so devastatingly better than Bagon. If you have an Axew on your team you can likely replace it with Bagon, but remember that you'll be speed tying with slower things and losing to Growlithe.

    Ponyta (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 236 Atk / 76 SDef / 196 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Flare Blitz
    - Wild Charge
    - Hypnosis / Double Kick
    - Morning Sun
    There's no way this is UU material either. It's Growlithe with 3 more speed and 2 more attack and slightly better bulk, along with access to a sleeping move. And we all know how great Growlithe is thus far. We can test it out if need be; I'm putting this in BL, talk me out of it if you can.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2011
  32. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    You aren't listing anything as BL...

    1. The "tier" doesn't exist yet.
    2. Its like 3 days in the works.
    3. If we get rash about things, it will be seen as even more of a joke than it already is.
    4. You're not the "tier" leader.

    So yeah... no. For now, everyone is going to have to suck it up and play with broken stuff around. We're not going to start developing a metagame before it even exists.
     
  33. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    um my list has Axew as LC "OU" anyway so it doesn't matter there though as Koko pointed out if you want this taken seriously wait until there is an Actual Tier to start puting out suspects.
     
  34. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    If you say so. I'm just trying to make the tier better. I'm sorry if I'm stepping out of bounds.

    There is no official tier, I realise. I know that I have no power over the results of the tier if and when it is made official. But Axew and Darumaka were tested and strongly pushed for overpoweredness by everyone who played the tier and was on the server when it was tested. Again, I'm just trying to support the general concensus,and like 3-4 people asked me to ban Axew so I ask it to not be used. Ignore my post if it's better that way.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2011
  35. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    @above IIRC before the forums went down we had agreed that the tier list i had put together would be the one used at least until an actual tier was formed, and niether Axew nor Darumaka check out as "LC UU" on it so there is no reason to ban them from a tier they don't exist in anyway.
     
  36. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I think WU has a right to ban things, It gives an idea of what the tier will be like if it ever becomes official.
    Because we all know these things will be banned once/if the tier becomes official and if it doesn't we my as well make it something like this: http://46.18.192.100/~pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?8010-Ash-Ketchum-Tier but 100x better

    Also since nobody hax here is a threat list thing for Onix:

    [secret]
    "Lead"
    [​IMG]Onix (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 236 Atk / 76 Def / 196 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt
    - Explosion

    Strategy: This Onix is probably the most viable set. Even though this is wifi and there is no such thing as a lead, most teams will have a standard Pokémon they lead with most of the time.
    With 17 speed Onix gets the edge on the ever popular Growlithe and Budew. Earthquake is near perfect coverage over popular LC UU threats. Stealth Rock is just as it is on every other Pokémon out there. Explosion although reduced in power from gen 4 is still an incredibly powerful move. Especially in what is effectively the "weakest tier" so far. Taunt does what Taunt has always done, and coming off a pretty impressive speed stat provides a reliable method of stopping Spikes, Subs, Rocks and Status. Sturdy removes the need for a Focus Sash meaning that you can use Lum Berry to protect from early game status that you may not have predicted with Taunt or allowing you to switch in that much safer. 14 attack may seem a bit of a let down, however Onix's coverage with EQ and Explosion's raw power make it a decent offensive force.

    RP Sweeper
    [​IMG]Onix (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 236 Atk / 76 Def / 196 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Rock Polish
    - Explosion / Taunt

    Strategy: This set is less viable as the other however it can still do some decent damage to a team if used well. Basic idea is switch in on something you can take hits from or something you will scare out (Like a Growlithe) and Rock Polish up. As mentioned in the previous set. Onix's attack is nothing particularly impressive at 15 while adamant. But with the coverage and stab provided by Stone Edge and Earthquake you can still make a very good sweep or at least a good attempt at one. The choice of Taunt or Explosion is purely if you prefer the extra chance to set up or if you want to go out with a very very big bang and be able to take a significant chunk of the tier with you.

    Here are some calcs for this set: (Bare in mind most of these are max def. These Pokémon won't always run max def)
    [secret]252Atk Life Orb lvl 5 Onix (+Atk) Explosion vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers lvl 5 Budew (+Def): 104% - 126% (24 - 29 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
    252Atk Life Orb lvl 5 Onix (+Atk) Explosion vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers lvl 5 Squirtle (+Def): 83% - 100% (20 - 24 HP).
    252Atk Life Orb lvl 5 Onix (+Atk) Explosion vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers lvl 5 Bulbasaur (+Def): 95% - 116% (23 - 28 HP). 80% chance to OHKO.
    252Atk Life Orb lvl 5 Onix (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Lightningrod lvl 5 Rhyhorn (+Def): 74% - 111% (20 - 30 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 30% chance to OHKO.
    252Atk Life Orb lvl 5 Onix (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers lvl 5 Budew (+Def): 65% - 82% (15 - 19 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Life Orb lvl 5 Onix (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers lvl 5 Squirtle (+Def): 54% - 66% (13 - 16 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Life Orb lvl 5 Onix (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers lvl 5 Bulbasaur (+Def): 62% - 79% (15 - 19 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    And Just cuz I think its an important one: 252Atk Life Orb lvl 5 Onix (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers lvl 5 Budew (Neutral): 91% - 117% (21 - 27 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 66% chance to OHKO.[/secret][/secret]
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2011
  37. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Or it just messes with something before it even starts. Look at Bagon, WU wanted to ban it ASAP and then later that same day it was deemed not broken. Even if he does have the "right" to do it, it doesn't mean it the right thing to do. There's a suspect process for a reason.
     
  38. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    I don't have executive rights to banning and should not.
    "4. You're not the "tier" leader."

    100% of the people wanted them as BL.

    I'll shut up if I'm not supported in BLing them. But I'll admit that we're going to fast in bans.

    It's not like we haven't done testing. I've played like 50 matches and know every set used, so I think I know the tier well enough for as far as it is. Others who've played many matches as well agree to the BLs and I've seen no objection. Those arguments in Post 32 aren't even mine, but I'm voicing them because they're sound and widely agreed to.

    @above We hadn't tested Bagon; that was me theorymoning it to be too good and being wrong.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2011
  39. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    @above did you even read my post.

    so technically they are banned anyway due to usage.
     
  40. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    We're using July's more accurate usage statistics, which place Pory in OU and Axew in UU.