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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Smeargle

Discussion in 'Gen 5 UU' started by Groudon Ramsay, Aug 17, 2011.

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  1. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Discuss the possibility of Smeargle becoming BL in the WiFi metagame. Talk about its sets, possible counters to each one and to the Pokemon as a whole. Talk about good partners and potential team synergy. Avoid talking about things you haven't tested, and back up your statements - anyone talking out without the experience or knowledge to back up their posts will be infracted. If after several days of discussion a consensus is reached, it will become BL.

    Keep in mind that the main reason Smeargle is being suspected is due to its nearly unrivaled (Shell Smash or Quiver Dance) Baton Passing capabilities. However, this doesn't mean you should ignore the other aspects of the pokemon when talking about it - consider every viable set when making a statement, as when you see a Smeargle, there's no way you can know exactly which one it is running.

    That is all.
     
  2. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Smeargle has 2 "viable" sets (no, Belly Drum pass isn't a viable set), the "lead" set (even though speaking about lead in wifi it's not 100% correct), and the baton passer:

    Smeargle (M) @ Focus Sash / White Herb
    Trait: Own Tempo
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Spore
    - Quiver Dance / Shell Smash
    - Baton Pass
    - Substitute

    So, on with the set stated as possibly broken in the OP. Obviously, we see Spore, a 100% accuracy move that puts the opposing pokemon to sleep, Quiver Dance gives +1 to SpA SpD and Spe, Sub is sub, and BP...is BP. Usually this Smeargle Spores turn 1 (or Quiver Dances if predicting), then it tries to baton pass the boost to your special sweeper of choice. Very useful, but given the painter's pathetic defenses, it has to rely on Focus Sash to do that, and even then, it's pretty risky (Wifi, you may not lead with him, so you'll have to watch out from hazards, and there's still hail/sand in UU). The slashes are for the other kind of passer, the Shell Smash one. With Shell Smash you'll need White Herb, otherwise priority moves would kill you, and find a turn to Shell Smash isn't that easy, again because of lackluster bulk. Smeargle tends to come in slower opponents, Spore, SS/QD, then BP away the boost, there's not much else this set can do. Stopped by phazers after Sleep Clause has activated, if Sash broke down, everything that outspeeds it at +1 kills it, priorities kill him aswell, it's pretty unreliable. The Shell Smasher is even more risky to use, since without Sash you die in 1 attack (unless things like Seismic Toss). The other set Smeargle usually runs is (at least I think):

    Smeargle (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Own Tempo
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Spore
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes

    Easy, Spore whatever is in (beware of Fake Outters), then place as many hazards as possible. Not much to say here. Xatu completely shuts down the set, Rapid Spinner after Sleep Clause has already been activated does as well, so does Taunt. A ghost is needed with this, to block atttempts to Rapid Spin, and even then, while it can support the team nicely, relying on such a frail pokemon to setup all the 3 kinds of hazards, it's pretty risky, but it doesn't get anything else, really.

    I have to say that Smeargle is inferior to Venomoth in everything bar as an hazard lead (Venomoth can still run toxic spikes though), the fact that Spore has 100% accuracy, and that Smeargle can smashpass. But smashpassing with Smeargle is literally impossible (it's a lot easier with Gorebyss/Huntail), while the Quiver Dance set is utterly outclassed by Venomoth which sports superior bulk, better ability, and can occasionally sweep. Smeargle requires perfect prediction and screen support to work well, and even then, he may fall to stronger attacks. Also, the whole strategy suffers of the same problem of every Baton Passer: the recipient has to take the hit when he comes on the field, and avoid possible status, and even then, if it gets hit by a strong attack, then a priority would be enough to shut him down completely. Relying on focus sash in a metagame with the Wifi clause is also a lot risky, and Hail breaks it fairly easily. Faster sub user will ruin the day of Smeargle, and so will do scarfers if it's QuiverPass.
     
  3. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

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    Suspect Smeragle is a joke even for UU standarts. In all my like 100 battles during the week i have not faced 1 Smeragle. No good player uses it, i guess nobody in the top 50. I remember one guy using it in ubers against me, he was the 2nd last on the ladder, maybe you should ask him.

    Luck>Skill already said everything.
    Shell pass is outclassed by Gorebys and Huntail, Quiever by Venomoth.
    Belly Drum pass with Spore Support is its only niche. But Smeragle is one of the frailest pokes (55 HP/ 35 Def /45 SpD), it takes so easily >50% damage. With its 20 Atk and 20 SpA it wont use any attacking moves.
    It has no useful resistences, it cant switch into anything. It needs tons of support. Anything with Insomia/Sleep Talk/Lum or Chesto Berry/ >73 Spe, Priority/ Multi Hit attack/ Dragon Tail/WW / Taunt can counter it.

    Here some cals:
    252 Hp 252+ Spd Smeragle takes
    33-39 % from an uninvested Scald from Suicune 48-56% with only 252 HP
    28-33% from an uninvested Giga Drain from Roserade 46-54% with only 252 HP
    Without Spe you got outspeeded by both.
     
  4. twofivefive

    twofivefive don't call it a comeback

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    You're forgetting that Smeargle has Spore, which makes it more useful than Gorebyss and Huntail, allowing it to pull off Shell Smash FAR more easily. However, Venomoth outclasses it in Quiver-pass, as stated before.
     
  5. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Again with the ridiculous posts filled with terrible logic. Here, let me break it down like a fraction for you:

    I used to get an alt to the top ~25 in about 3 hours, maybe a month ago, tops. Mew used it to get 2 alts to the top 20, iirc. So right there, your claim is blatantly false.

    Cool, learn to think by yourself.

    Spore and Taunt make it better than Gorebyss and Huntail at Smash Passing, while 100% accurate Sleep makes it different (still slightly worse though) than Venotmoth at Quiver Passing.

    Belly Drum Passing is a terrible set, and fraility doesn't matter when the only way you can hit it is priority, since its going to boost up to +2 with Shell Smash anyway.

    More false claims. Ghost- immunity helps when setting up against the popular Scarf Mismagius. It doesn't need support, it supports itself by acquiring free turns via Spore, though is certainly likes dual screens. And let me show you why every single one of your "counters" fails:

    1. Insomnia - Name one viable pokemon with Insomnia. Here, I'll help you out - Honchkrow, but wait, it also gets Moxie, so no one in their right mind is going to use Insomnia. For the same of Argument, lets pretend Insomnia is viable in UU. I Shell Smash as you switch in, and then either Substitute as you try to Status the supposed recipient or simply pass away to something that can beat you - this even leaves me able to Smash Pass again!

    2. Sleep Talk - Man you must be pretty lucky to always hit the right move at the right time with Sleep Talk. Nice 33.3% there, bud.

    3. Lum / Chesto Berry - What runs this in UU? please enlighten me. Besides, same problem as mons with Insomnia. I Shell Smash as you come in, Baton Pass away to something that can beat your Berry user. And again, you're not preventing me from coming back in and Smash Passing again.

    4. More than 73 Speed - You're right, Shell Smash doesn't give +2 Speed or anything.

    5. Priority - Good luck switching into Spore. Oh and if you manage to come in on a different move, I'll just switch out and try again later, kthnx.

    6. Multi-hit moves - I don't even understand why you listed this here. Not only are they pretty much non-existent in UU, but they don't do anything that a regular move doesn't to hinder Smeargle. Okay, I so you can break Subs, woopty fucking doo, I can switch and try again later. Or better yet, I can stay in and expect your weak ass move to not KO and get a pass off safely. Oh, and if you switch into Smeargle as it Smashes, you're boned anyway.

    7. Dragon Tail - Even Smearlge's Substitute won't be broken by Milotic's weak ass Dragon Tail. Nice try.

    8. Whirlwind / Roar - Taunt. Spore. Thanks, try again.

    9. Taunt - Yeah, you're right, Smeargle isn't going to be faster at +2 and Taunt/Spore/Pass before you can do anything.

    Bolded the relevant calcs, as no one is dumb enough to run Smeargle without 252 Speed and Timid.

    Thank you for helping me out, you just proved that not everything will OHKO Smeargle. Doing ~50% damage gives me enough breathing room to come in, take Stealth Rock damage, Shell Smash (with White Herb obviously), and save Spore for after the Smash, giving me plenty more options. Alternatively, I can come in on your move and Spore, then Smash, then Pass - though this is less optimal.

    Oh and one last thing, Mental Herb is a 100% viable item on Smeargle, as it prevents Phazing and Taunting, so yeah. Half of the shit that is "guaranteed" to beat Smeargle, doesn't work at all with Mental Herb.

    To everyone - Seriously, enough with the shitty posting already. Think through your arguments before you post here. I'm a hell of a lot less lenient than the OU Leaders, I will actually infract for shitty logic in Suspect Discussions.
     
  6. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

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    Ok maybe you and Mew got 2 alts with Smeragle in the top 20. I just say what i have seen. Maybe i understimate him cuz i never faced a smeragle in UU ?!
    In Gen 4 he was OU becasue of his ability to put hazards on the field and Spore.

    Top 20 is not top 10 or even top 5. You can make it top 20 quite fast with such a poke like Smeragle. But trust me, if a poke is really broken it also works on the high end lvl. (top 10 where everyone knows the others team exactly).
    Smeragle is the perfect example for a 50/50 poke , more latter. You need a more bulky poke there because if your opponent has the initiative Smeragle struggles to set up.

    1.Insomnia - If you really fear Smeragle, you give him Insomnia. Sure Moxie is better in general but some careful people might give Insomnia a try.

    2.Sleep Talk - Sleep Talk is unretalible, true. However with 2 attacks your chance to hit is 50% not 33,3%. Sleep Talk +3 attacks has even a 75% chance. (Guts CB Sleep Talk Heracross)

    3.Lum/Chesto Berry - the creative playstyle berries, you never know if a poke has one of these, against a sweeper you better have a Focus Sash.

    4.More than 73 Spe - Outspeeding Smeragle is always good, it will take lots of dmg or even die without Sash, its your turn now. Be, creative U-Turn to a Lum Berry user ?! Substitute ?!

    5.Priority - Smeragle gets a Shell Smash ?! Priority knocks it out (unless it has Focus Sash)

    6.Multi Hit Moves - Yes these are very rare, i only know Beat up Houndom, although in theory they counter Smeragle

    7.Dragon Tail - You only have room for 1 other move, Substitute is the best, however you wont be able to use Taunt

    8.WW/Roar - Even with Taunt they can just attack for nice dmg, you need predition unless you have not slept one poke.
    Rest/ST/BS/WW Snorlax can give you lots of trouble.

    9. Taunt - If you face a poke with taunt its a 50/50. Do you try to Taunt or use your only chance to set up.
    High End Taunter is Tornadus with BU/Sub/Taunt/Acrobalitics you ll lose every time.

    10. Focus Sash/ - Once you passed the boosts your sweeper is at -1 Def -1 SpD. One random Focus Sasher can destroy your sweep. If you wanna set up rocks you give your opponent 1 free turn.
    Sturdy - Donphan can stop your sweep with EQ+IC Lum Berry Donphan counters you 100%.

    11 Substitute - Faster than Smerage or just with Lum / Chesto they will beat Smeragle unless it predicts perfectly. (Only for Taunt versions)
    Very common in UU , Raikou, Zapdos, Missi etc...

    12. Weather - Sandstorm + Hail destroys your sash, SR Scoutland outspeedsyou even at +2, evasion of some dangerous pokes is raised , Caturene and Mamoshwine f.e

    The whole point about Smeragle is Spore. If you can block it you have a good chance to win.
    The next point is Smeragle need Spore to set up otherwise it will die too fast. Nobody will swich in their main Smeragle check, just any attacker who might not be important to win the match. Unless their sweeper has White Herb, he will be at
    -1 Def -1 Spd he will take lots of dmg during the swich in. Smeragle isnt at +2 Atk +2SpA +2Spe from the beginning it needs one turn to set up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2011
  7. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Not only is your post incredibly hard to read, but it shows your lack of understanding for the metagame and reeks of poor logic. I'm not going to make another huge post just to outline what is wrong with yours because that would really be repeating myself (most of your arguments can be countered with my previous post, and the rest are ever worse than the first ones you gave). Just because I didn't get to the top 5 or even the top 10 when using Smearge, it doesn't mean that I couldn't have. I stopped laddering with it because, as hard as it is to believe, don't like easy wins (which might explain my Honchkrow fixation). Anyway, your post was infracted due to poor use of logic, and every single bad post after this one will be as well. So, to everyone else, consider this a warning.
     
  8. Deox1

    Deox1 Member

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    I'm sorry if I mis-read your post Kokoloko but it seems like you are inferring that the opponent switches into Smeargle but I think that we have to keep in mind that Smeargle can't just come in on everything and start setting up. If I mis-read your post I'm sorry but otherwise I agree with most of your post. Like one thing that confused me was that you said "More than 73 Speed - You're right, Shell Smash doesn't give +2 Speed or anything." It seems like you assume that the opponent switches into you while you set up shell smash and then pass out. If that is true then almost nothing counters it but I think that Smeargle is indeed broken but is there a possibility to Ban Spore + Baton Pass? The only real advantage it has over the other baton passers is the fact that it gets that 100% accurate sleep move so why not just get rid of that? And I'm sorry if this is a bad post...
     
  9. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Smeargle obviously can't come in on any damaging moves, but that's not that hard to accomplish. A slow U-turn, coming in after something has died, or even predicting something like Toxic / Stealth Rock, are all safe ways of getting Smeargle in. Obviously you wouldn't come in on something that you cant force out with the threat of Sleep / set up on.

    Also, we won't be banning moves any time soon. Spore is as much part of Smeargle as its stats, and you would never consider banning say... a pokemon's Speed, would you?
     
  10. Deox1

    Deox1 Member

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    I guess that is all true... But, you say we would never consider banning a pokemon's speed but we often ban a pokemon's combination of stats/move pool. For example, Deoxys-A has monstrous Atk, Sp.Atk, and Speed which makes it broken and can't it be said that the combination of Spore + Baton Pass makes Smeargle broken if you could easily get into the top 20 abusing those moves? And I only considered that in the first place because it was mentioned in the suspect thread about Baton Pass in general...
     
  11. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak Pimp Hand Strong Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    I'm sorry, but I didn't understand a word of what you just typed. Could you try rewording that for me please?
     
  12. marmoteo

    marmoteo Member

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    And yet Baton Pass was suggested as something suspect worthy by you in another thread? Lolk

    Anyway, I'd like to nominate Xatu as a consistent, reliable counter for Smeargle. It can either bounce the Spore, phaze, or force a switch. The thing is, forcing Smeargle to switch can spell its death. With hazards potentially on, Smeargle won't be able to switch in much (since it just makes it all the easier to KO it since its break its Sash). Its not dead weight on a team since it can abuse this opportunity to either bounce status, hazards, Wish Pass, spread paralysis, or set up Screens. It also has the advantage of running Roost which allows it to recover from constantly switching in (something Smeargle doesn't have time/space to do).

    (Also, just a gimmicky suggestion... you can always run Power Swap on Xatu to completely troll Smeargle - you swap the bonuses, then proceed to sweep with Stored Power)
     
  13. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    And yet we closed the thread and separated it into actual pokemon suspects for a reason after just two days, so "lolk"

    Xatu is a good check, due to Magic Bounce trolling Sporing Smeargle, but it can't phaze (I had to check the teambuilder though, so props). If I see a Xatu in the Team Preview, I won't be Sporing when I get Smeargle in, I'll just Shell Smash and Baton Pass away when you bring it in. It can, however, use Haze - so I guess that's something. Probably going to be a dead moveslot against most teams though, since its not like Xatu has the defenses to be using Haze vs boosted pokemon.

    Gimmicks are gimmicks.
     
  14. Deox1

    Deox1 Member

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    I'm sorry Oak, English isn't my native language and I'm tired :\ What I was trying to say was that when Kokoloko said "Spore is as much part of Smeargle as its stats, and you would never consider banning say... a pokemon's Speed, would you?" It seemed like he was saying that you wouldn't ban a pokemon because just a single stat. But then you can look at like Deoxys-A which was banned because of obvious reasons, his attacking stats and speed + movepool. So similarly can't you say that Smeargle might be broken in UU with his combination of an 100% accurate sleep move and baton pass? So I think that Spore + Baton Pass should be up for a possibility.. Only problem is that then it could just use something like dark void... Either way I hope that made more sense. If it didn't feel free to PM me so I don't waste other people's time.
     
  15. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Okay now I understand. No that's not what I meant at all.

    I meant, since Spore is just as much part of Smeargle as its Speed Stat, it makes no sense to be able to ban a move but not a stat. Basically, banning parts of pokemon is inherently wrong - especially when you're doing it on a single or a few pokemon as opposed to banning things entirely.

    Anyway, lets not discuss this further here, its way off-topic.
     
  16. marmoteo

    marmoteo Member

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    Haze is not a wasted moveslot on Xatu. Assuming Xatu comes in Shell Smash (cause if it comes in Spore, then it's bye bye for Smeargle), this will either force Smeargle to switch out or attempt to pass the Shell Smash bonuses somewhere else, which will be futile as the receiver will be victim of Haze. And as mentioned, Smeargle doesn't get many chances to actually pass something, since being 'hazed' or switching out means it will lose either the Sash (when it tries to come back in if hazards are present) or the White Herb. And while Xatu's defenses might not be able to withstand other boosted Pokemon, with an appropriate defensive EV Spread it can still come on slow boosting Pokemon or Curse users and Haze them.
     
  17. Wavy

    Wavy prince of the sea Server Moderator Server Moderator

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    It's not useful for most teams. The only time it's useful outside of stopping Smeargle is against slow boosters, but it's hard to fit it in when Xatu's main goal most of the time is not to stop sweepers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2011
  18. marmoteo

    marmoteo Member

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    It doesn't have to be Xatu's main role. As stated above, it can also set up Screens, Thunder Wave, Wish Pass and U-Turn to scout. It can come in on most Pokemon trying to set up Hazards, or Status moves (including Leech Seed), granting it a free switch and quite likely a turn to use either of those. Reducing Xatu to a Hazer is unreleastic since even when carrying Haze it still has three more moveslots it can allocate to support the rest of your team.
     
  19. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    There's two problems with Haze:

    1. Xatu's usage for July and the first week of August: Global Usage: 2.73 % (5717 battles) and # 14 - 2.14 % (12 battles), # 21 - 1.43 % (8 battles), # 22 - 1.25 % (7 battles).

    So basically, Haze is used on it 27 battles out of every 5717 - so from that, you can extrapolate that Xatu has much better options. Sure, you can argue that Haze should be used more due to the threat of Smeargle, but that doesn't mean its going to make it any less useless against most teams. Which brings me to my second point...

    2. What, other than Smeargle, is Haze useful against? You said slow stat uppers, so lets find some in UU, shall we? Going down the stats list and looking at everything above 4% usage we have a potential Calm Mind Slowbro at #10, a potential Calm Mind Suicune at #12, a potential CurseLax at #21, and a potential Curse Umbreon at #43. Out of those four pokemon, only Snorlax commonly runs its stat-up move, and even it chooses to use STAB / Whirlwind / Rest / Sleep Talk quite often.

    So yeah, I would call Haze a pretty dead moveslot. If Xatu had Whirlwind, it would be very cool, as that is at least useful for racking up hazard damage, but nope. If you insist on running Haze, you're either going to have to give up on a Status move (if running STAB / Wish / Protect / Haze) or on the ability to pass Wishes (STAB / Roost / Haze / Status), either way, you're giving up something useful for a dead moveslot.
     
  20. Deox1

    Deox1 Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong but if I recall correctly then pokemon like Sawsbuck with the "Sap Sipper" ability are immune to spore because it is a grass move right? Can those be considered a check then seeing that it can switch into that and force them out or even boost with agility while the opponent baton passes out?
     
  21. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Sap Sipper, much like Magic Bounce, does not prevent Smeargle from Shell Smashing / Substituting as you come in, then Baton Passing away to something that can beat it. Besides, there aren't any viable Sap Sippers in UU.

    I'm getting really tired of having to reply to posts championing things that are obviously not viable. /= Can we please not turn this into Thundurus Suspect Discussion 2.0, where apparently Lanturn and Scarf Arbok are viable checks to it?
     
  22. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Miltank isn't viable, right? Good phys wall with recovery, Heal Bell, nice speed, and she can para the switchin with Thunder Wave/Body Slam. I think that Bouffalant is unviable too, base 120 attack isn't good at all, and base 120 + stab + the possible +1 by Sap Slipper is even worse. Sap Slipper Azumarill has only 1 weakness, can still abuse priority, and can subpunch while your smeargle bpasses, then you can either Toxic Stall, or fire off a Focus Punch, and you'll have 1 more turn to Aqua Jet too!

    Not many lum/chesto pokemons can come in anyway, so they'd have to be in the field to be sure to "counter" Smeargle.

    Like you always said in any suspect thread, prediction doesn't count, so you can't say "I see a Xatu in team preview, so I can just shell smash and win", and your opponent may predict too.

    And I've never heard any complaint of Smeargle from any UU battler, why is it suspected? Also, UU leaders suspecting a BL3 pokemon like Smeargle doesn't sound right...why don't LU players complain? LU is even more stale than UU, so they should technically have more problems against him, right? Just a thought.

    Anyway, the part about "Insomnia Honchkrow sucks, Moxie is better", is just an opinion. In fact, I prefer Insomnia, since with Moxie you can't run Superpower, which is pretty useful, and Moxie Honchkrow needs to predict more than perfectly to be of any use, and again, you are forced to do mindgames, which isn't a good thing. The perfect counter to SS/QD Smeargle is Banette, with Insomnia and Trick Room, it's born to troll him. Hypno can do the same, and Hypno can be useful in many ways (Wish passer/Dual Screener/Tricker). Primeape is another good pokemon with Vital Spirit (anger point is pretty useless), and can scare Smeargle away with STAB CC, or can just U-turn out, or predict and do decent damage to the incoming switch in.

    About Sleep Talkers, if it's something like RestTalk + 2 atks, the chance of hitting Smeargle it's 66.6%, and if you run a pokemon with RT only (CBers, example: Guts Heracross), you'll hit surely hit him.

    Lum Berry Whimsicott is an excellent counter to that Smeargle, and if you can predict, even without. Just encore Shell Smash/Sub on the Spore (I doubt any Smeargle would stay in, but whatever), and you can SubSeed stall the recipient. Also, I'd like a list of the x most powerful recipients, before judging smashpass that broken. The whole tactic requires 3 turns, while any sweeper could potentially boost his own attack by +2 in 1 single turn (2 if you want the speed too and can learn agility/rock polish) without needing it to be bpassed, and with less risks (only one would be to be status'd, but you may simply bp it a subs or idk...run safeguard Wobbuffet).

    Haze is viable on Xatu, not the best move, but viable. Dual Screen/Roost/Haze is actually a good moveset, I used to run exactly the same Xatu in OU with Toxic over Haze, but with such a superstrong threat (lol) like SmashPassers etc, Haze is probably better to support the team. Wish pass Xatu is pretty bad, since its Wishes are pretty small, but they may be useful
     
  23. marmoteo

    marmoteo Member

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    Just thought I'd come and nitpick at this bit. Mental Herb does prevent Taunting, but does not prevent Phazing in the form of Whirlwind, Roar, Haze, etcetera. Mental Herb only protects you from Taunt, Encore, Attract, Disable and Torment. It's definitely viable but it's also an inferior choice from White Herb or Focus Sash. I do beg to ask, how is it that you're allowed to propose inferior options for items for Smeargle to deal with its 'counters', while suggesting having Haze on Xatu a waste?

    Having Mental Herb means Smeargle won't survive any moderate to strong attack (cue priority) since it lacks Focus Sash, which makes it all the easier to deal with. It also means it will lack White Herb, which means that whatever abuser it passes its boosts to will be very susceptible to Priority. It's definitely a viable item, but an inferior one, and it should only be used if your team has a weakness against Taunt/Encore users. The same thing can be said about Xatu - if one's team is having problems dealing with Smeargle, Haze Xatu would be considered an appropiate choice to fill the gap, and while there might be superior options, it doesn't mean it is not viable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2011
  24. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Just a little nitpick: you always assume perfect prediction on both sides, which removes the problem where people can just argue in circles using prediction as the main point. It's not that it "doesn't count," it's just that if Xatu attempts to come in Smeargle could very well just shell smash and pass out instead of blindly taunting/sporing. Or sleep/taunt whatever else you send in and then do whatever it's supposed to do, like baton passing.

    Not trying to argue anything, just felt I needed to point that out.
     
  25. marmoteo

    marmoteo Member

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    Alright, so hypothetically this is how the order of events would potentially unravel following what you said.

    [SECRET]
    Turn 1

    Smeargle comes to play either as a lead, after a Pokemon has been KO'd, or as a 'switch in' (which in that case, Smeargle is in big trouble).

    Turn 2

    Any smart opponent with access to Xatu would immediatelly switch in. Smeargle proceeds to Shell Smash (since we're assuming the opponent has perfect prediction and won't use Spore).

    Turn 3

    Smeargle uses Baton Pass to pass the bonuses to the opponent. Xatu uses Haze and all you have is the recipient with no bonuses at all. This means that next time Smeargle tries to attempt the same strategy, it will quite likely have lost its Focus Sash (either because of the switch in, or hazards), or definitely lost the White Herb. This renders Smeargle in a much more vulnerable position.

    [/SECRET]

    And for anyone who still insists that Xatu is dead weight in a team, I'd like to point out that by nature of its ability, Xatu becomes useful since it can reflect all sorts of moves to the opponent - it also has a moderately good support movepool that can be used even with Haze taking one of its moveslot.

    EDIT: The point of this post was not to necessarily argue, but to ask for a viable example since Xatu clearly isn't. As even with perfect prediction from both sides, Xatu still wins o.o. Point taken with the fact that you need to assume both sides are going to be good at predicting.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2011
  26. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    As I stated, not trying to argue anything, I just felt that it needed to be said. The Xatu thing was simply an example.
     
  27. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Don't be ridiculous, Luck, you know better than that (or maybe you don't?). Miltank needs Thick Fat to wall Victini, Darmanitan, and Arcanine; Sap Sipper won't help you beat much, since Roserade is still going to slam you with a Sludge Bomb. Granted, its viable, but a generally inferior choice. Bouffalant is just plain bad in UU, yeah in LU it rapes, but in UU it doesn't accomplish anything other than getting walled to hell and back by Suicune, Arcanine, Milotic, etc. or killed by the plethora of faster pokemon that can destroy it. Again, viable, but its a much, much, inferior choice. Sap Sipper Azumarill is a joke... and really, if I could, I'd have infracted you for suggesting it. Cool now you end up with an outclassed bulky Water... nice job.

    Cool story bro, what are you trying to prove?

    Because why would anyone come to you with complaints about UU? You're not a UU Leader. Besides, no one's complaining about Smeargle, they're complaining about SmashPass, and guess what? Smeargle does it better. Why don't LU players complain? Different metagame, different playerbase, different mentality. The pokemon that stop Smeargle are a hell of a lot more viable, and hence common, in LU, so it makes sense that Smeargle is less useful there. Just because you haven't seen it used effectively, it doesn't mean its not incredibly good.

    Honchkrow doesn't need Superpower, as Steel-types are quite rare in UU. Sure its viable, but again, inferior. Are you seriously suggesting people use Banette, Hypno, and Primeape in UU when they're all directly outclassed by at least two other pokemon? If I'm forced to reply to a post full of unviable pokemon again, I will rage.

    Lets find some common RestTalkers, shall we? Suicune, Snorlax. Suicune doesn't OHKO Smeargle unless it runs SAtk EVs (in which case it won't be RestTalk), as was proved in an earlier post, so it only has that 33% of hitting Roar, if it even has it. Snorlax is on the same boat, as it won't be OHKOing Smeargle with an unboosted, uninvested move - though I might be wrong about this one. So really, they won't be stopping it. If you see Heracross switching into Spore and you stay in, you're a bad player and deserve to lose, as it will obviously be using Sleep Talk. Granted, it can switch into Spore fine, but what if I decide to Shell Smash as you switch in as opposed to Spore? Now you're stuck deciding whether to Sleep Talk or attack. Besides, Heracross loses to the most common Baton Pass receiver in UU, Nidoking (cause you're definitely not running Earthquake with Sleep Talk).

    Why would you run Lum Berry on something with priority Substitute? And without it, you're losing to Spore on the switch. On top of which, using Whimiscott in a metagame full of Shaymin, Roserade, Virizion, and Celebi, is just plain dumb. Right, SmashPassing takes three turns, but Spore is one of them, which in turn gives you another free turn. So really, it only takes one.

    I never said it was unviable, just inferior.

    Anyway, nice try, but stop posting unless you're going to suggest viable counters.

    I could have sworn it did, I guess I just got lucky and never got phazed when I tested it. Knowing that, I admit, Mental Herb is an inferior item on Smeargle, so no, I wouldn't use it again. However, I feel the need to address your incorrect assumption that I'm 'allowed' to suggest inferior things but you aren't - at the time I thought Mental Herb was better than what I do now, so no, I wouldn't call it inferior, hence it was viable.

    Already replied to the Mental Herb thing, and I never said Xatu was bad, I said Haze on it was inferior.

    Yes, that's exactly how it would play out if you choose to run Haze on Xatu. That doesn't make Haze on Xatu a 'good' move though. Viable? Yes. Good? No.

    Xatu itself is never dead weight on a team (unless you're up against like... Hyper Offense or something, but w/e), its the fact that you'd give up a perfectly good moveslot for something with extremely limited use, like Haze, on something that already has extreme 4MS.

    Haze Xatu is a perfect counter to Smeargle, yes, you're doing what you're supposed to if you want to argue for Smeargle to stay UU - you're finding viable pokemon that counter it. However, I'm here to present the reasons why those pokemon are not optimal. That's my job as someone who thinks Smeargle is broken in UU.

    EDIT: What a waste of a 1000th post.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2011
  28. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    lol how did i know that koko would waste his 1000th post on a suspect thread, anyway Smeargle is definitely broken same reasons as in NU, also Marm are you suggesting that i should waste a team slot on my Offensive teams that could be used to hammer at opponents (or something like milotic/suicune/arcanine/donphan which all have large amounts of usefulness) on stupid litlle Xatu who hurts offensive momentum and really can't deal damage without a boost or two to save its life i believe that that would be Overcentralization, in any case Smeagle is broken SmashPass is jerkish enough without Smeargle's theoretically bottomless movepool.
     
  29. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    After having used Smeargle extensively, I retire everything I said before...it's very...strong, it comes in on everything slower, sleeps, shell smashes like a pro, then you win...it's not even funny :/
     
  30. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    +1 respect. Someone admitting they were wrong in a pokemon debate, this is just... beautiful.

    This just goes to show why theorymon =/= practice. He never used it, thought it sucked. Used it, realized how stupidly good it is, and now thinks its broken. If anyone else here is debating for the "no ban" side, I highly recommend you do the same thing, as you'll likely arrive at the same conclusion.
     
  31. Schroeder

    Schroeder Member

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    lol Luck I almost had you until you critted Sigilyph with Celebi's Psychic =P
    But yeah, seeing someone as good as yourself play with Smeargle just makes it all the more dangerous and I've come to realize how broken it is as well. Of course a good player will use anything better than a worse player which doesn't necessarily make the Pokémon overpowered by any means, but in general I see Smeargle being a very high threat in the current metagame. I even took precautions in my own team to stop it by including Flame Orb Sigilyph to play mind games with Spore as well as Haze on Milotic, but it's easy to work around Sigilyph and you ran Taunt on Smeargle xD
     
  32. dragonmaster951753

    dragonmaster951753 Member

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    I am leaning to his banning. Before, I go into more details, no personal attacks on my intelligence please? I would like to keep this as professional as possible, and honestly, everytime I post, someone makes a personal attack which doesn't add to the discussion. Now to the point.

    I personally used a Spore/Magic coat/Shell smash/BP smeargle with focus sash that did wonders with passing. I gave him max speed and timid nature so he could outspeed slow leads preserving his sash, while knocking out one pokemon. Then I would Shell smash on the switch. If a roar/whirlwind user came, I would magic coat, phazing them out and breaking in another pokemon, and then I would BP to 1 of 2 recipents, that depended on the pokemon that was out, both holding a white berry and slightly more built for defenses to make for a bulky sweep. 8 out of 10 matches would lead to a successful pass. Magic coat also helps against fast taunters as it shuts them down along with bouncing SR, if the opponent typically has it. The only counters to this would be dragon tail users, but there wasn't that many, hence me getting 8 out of 10 successful passes.

    Why would I think it should be banned if it has a counter? For what everyone else has mentioned, different sets that counter other threats. A Sub stops dragon tail meaning unless you know what set he is running, you may not be able to successfully counter him. Having everyone centralize their teams to simply stop smeargle from BPing would clearly show how OP he is, and thus a ban would be needed for him.
     
  33. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    I just had to delete 10 posts that went way off-topic... Please stay on topic guys or I'll be handing out infractions.

    Marmoteo PM'd me this (I left out some parts since they were irrelevant). Just wanted to leave this here.
     
  34. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    If it was only up to me Smeargle would be banned right now, waiting for Koko or Jcp to make a choice.
     
  35. Antonykun

    Antonykun New Member

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    In my personal opinion it seems that Smeargle should be banned because he has very little checks and even less counters despite the fact that i never used one in the UU I firmly believe that any pokemon that forces players to have very specific counters should be banned.
     
  36. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    I'm going to leave this open for exactly one week after the OP, and then a decision will be made. As of now, not a single good argument has been made to keep Smeargle around, and those who wanted to ended up changing their minds. Hence, if a decision was to be made right now, it would be BL.

    If you have anything left to say on the subject, speak up over the next couple of days or your voice won't be heard.
     
  37. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

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    Okay, It's been a week and not a single valid argument has been made to keep Smeargle and his Shell Smash Passing prowess in the tier. Hence, in accordance to this discussion, and with the agreement my two co-leaders, Smeargle is now WiFi BL.

    Thank you all for participating in this discussion.

    That is all.
     
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