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[ADV] CALLOUS Gen 3 OU Tier List

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by CALLOUS, Aug 19, 2011.

  1. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    Charizard is rendered useless by a lot of things, Cloyster is only a threat to teams that rely on Magneton instead of a Spinner, Houndoom covers some very specific holes in teams weak to Celebi and Jirachi, Umbreon is rarely a threat since Phazing is so common. They're not so much threats as they are pests. Moltres might belong on there, if there weren't so many bulky waters.

    Tauros, on the other hand, can dish out a whole lot of damage to anything, has base 110 Speed (which only Aero and Duggy beat as far as Banders go), Intimidate, giving it some decent switch ins, and the ability to hurt pretty much anything, barring Skarm/Forry.

    Slaking is a threat because there is pretty much nothing it can't 2HKO, with prediction ofc. Even Forretress cries at a mighty Focus Punch. Same goes with Medicham (except there actually IS nothing it can't 2HKO).

    The Pokemon listed as threats are threats because they can piss off just about any team, and quite easily work the match in your favour. While they differ in what roles they play in a team, in a match these pokemon tend to play the leading role in the fall of your opponent somehow.

    Oh, and Heracross is a monster. If you switch Dugtrio into Standard Hera you're begging for trouble. And it doesn't really care about Sand when it can nail Tyranitar with CB Megahorn/ Brick Break.
     
  2. Rewer

    Rewer Member

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    he didint meant to switch hera into trio, and yes to sack a mon / double switch then kill it
     
  3. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    My bad, I thought he was implying you could just throw Dugtrio at Hera and the jobs a good'n. Even so, Dugtrio doesn't make Hera any less scary.
     
  4. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    Updated this for the first time since January. The metagame is extremely centralized right now and the tier list reflects that.
     
  5. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    Don't agree with Mence and Forry, and really don't agree with Swampert, but on the whole pretty accurate. I've been seeing a lot of Celebi running only HP Grass for an attack, which I can't support at all, even if TTar is ridiculously popular. Speaking of TTar, I feel DDTar is not as popular as it once was, theres a lot of emphasis on SubPunching and Pursuit variants. Gengar is everywhere, to the point where it feels like using Forry is almost a liability, and Snorlax seems to be rising up as peoples chosen answer towards special threats, which makes sense, really. Milotic is as good as ever, although that may be biased since I've been running an unconventional one recently.

    I think the real hidden gem in this metagame is Heracross. The only common thing that can successfully wall it is Skarmory, Forretress can only Explode on it (which means Hera can make an excellent lure for a surprise Gengar switch) and Mence can be worn down by repeated Rock Slides. That, and Dugtrio has vanished for some reason, but I'm not complaining. More SDHera sweeps for me.
     
  6. Mr. GGFan

    Mr. GGFan Banned

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    Dugtrio is much better than Forretress.
     
  7. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    heracross performs that way in almost every incarnation of the adv ou meta because only skarmory, gyarados, and mence with lefties really handle it well. teams with forretress instead of skarm pretty much need a salamence or at least a bulky gengar imo. and speaking of forry, i agree with its placement only because of its sheer popularity. however, i've always thought and will continue to think it is kind of a bad team player in adv. because of its incredibly limited offense, it doesn't counter anything at all (except spikes if you can get rid of gengar, and metagross if you have earthquake and they don't have hp fire. have you noticed how common hp fire is getting to be?) and is very often setup/switch-in fodder for big offensive threats. i guess it's found its niche in this metagame though. salamence on the other hand certainly deserves its position.

    now swampert, i think can be moved down to your S tier. he's a dedicated counter to a good percentage of the offensive threats in the metagame, but that's a gift and a curse for him. while swampert is incredibly popular (and has been pretty much since the dawn of tss, forever ago. you could say its usefulness is a symptom of ttar's dominance, not his own dominance), i think the metagame has taken advantage of that for the past few years and has sort of focused on overwhelming it. swampert can't really deal with combinations of ttar/mence/gross/flygon/aero/what have you without TONS of support, especially if spikes are down, and at that point it's just as viable to use a combination like milotic + dugtrio or suicune + claydol/flygon or something, as many people have been doing i think. he doesn't have the versatility and potential to dominate offensively that the other 3 have either. i also really have to recommend that people start using rest on swampert instead of protect, and sleep talk if you don't have a beller and you can squeeze it on. i personally find it pretty easy to wear down a protect swampert. restalk has always been the best set for swampert whether it's on a tss team or it's facing a tss team as far as i'm concerned.

    i'd say the most common types of teams on the ladder are either ttar/forry/dugtrio/milo/celebi/filler (M Dragon's), or snorlax/swampert/mence/meta/magneton/filler with a few potential variations. people still seem to be into jabba's team a bit though, and that celebi/mag/trio/mence/lax/milo team that i think bloo made, also with maybe 1 or 2 variations. houndoom is actually surprisingly common as a filler or substitute on trapping teams also, as a pursuiter in ttar's stead, to get gengar out of the way and make eq curselax much more threatening.

    i agree that heracross is an oft forgotten threat (again, that's pretty much the norm for rse) but i think gyarados is even more unjustly neglected in this meta. in the past skarm was 90% of the time your spiker if you had one, whereas forretress is taking on much of that load now. additionally, compared to the superman era, zapdos and aerodactyl are nowhere. i really think gyarados and magneton are a good choice for the meta. gyarados is the solid switch into hera that many teams lack and it sets up on swampert like nobody's business (as well as milotic, but toxic is dangerous, and as well as suicune, but be wary of hp electric).
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2012
  8. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    I agree with a lot of the above. He's smart. :)
     
  9. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

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    Forry and Swampy should be in a lower tier.
    Suicune should be in the highest tier.
    I agree more or less with the rest.

    BTW, shrapn3l, this team: celebi/mag/trio/mence/lax/milo wasnt made by Bloo. Its Make (Kingfs in PO) team, a great ADV player. I gave that team to Bloo (my modified version), and he apparently gave that team to Bluewind, and KG saw Bloo using that team, so he thought it was Bloo team. So credits for that team should go for him
     
  10. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    I SEE thanks for the info. i've played that dude a few times he's pretty good. i kind of gotta agree about suicune and swampert.

    also adv needs to be revitalized a bit on beta server... nobody's playing and too many people don't know how to play :<
     
  11. Awoken

    Awoken New Member

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    "I truly believe Cacturne should be BL at very least and it should see OU play"
    ^Where the hell is Cacturne, then?
    Also, Salamence should definitely be higher because of its unpredictability. Certainly it doesn't have the movepool of something like Tyranitar or Gengar, but it has a decent number of unconventional sets that it can use to great effect. I find Wishmence with Toxic extremely effective in wearing down stuff like Milotic and Protect Swampert as well as being a general nuisance. It should be above Jirachi at least.
    Blissey should also be higher, solely because it hard counters all those offensive calm mind three attacks Suicune, Jirachi, and Celebi that people like to run.
    Dugtrio needs more love. Revenges half the ADV OU metagame, including the big two Tyranitar and Celebi (as well as Metagross, Jirachi, sometimes Blissey, Raikou, sometimes Starmie, Magneton, Heracross, Houndoom...).
    Other than that this list is solid. Thanks for making it!
     
  12. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    On about half peoples teams since CALLOUS started using it...
    I love Cacturne, I really really do. Its so much fun to use, and its not only very viable, but its got its own unique niche that nothing else can do- Sub-seed in TSS is obnoxious. I'd actually go so far as to say it is THE best Sub-Seeder in the meta. That said, I don't feel it needs to be actually moved up to OU- its not used on the same levels as, say, Regice, or Houndoom, to allow it actual OU status, and its not broken in UU (in fact its probably equally as viable when you factor in a lack of Sand Veil, but I'd need to test this) so it doesn't need to be BL either. Unless the increase in Cacturne usage retains over the next few months, its gonna stay UU. Its just one of those really viable UUs.
    In that sense, Mence is equally as unpredictable as Pert, Jirachi, Metagross- they all have common sets, and then a few uncommon ones that can mess people up (Defensive Meta, Pursuit Meta, EndeavorPert, CounterCoat Pert, Physical Rachi, etc).
    People still use those? I thought it was just a short phase... haven't seen them in ages.
    You missed Breloom :p
    Dugtrio's fine where it is. It is, by no short distance, one of the absolute biggest threats to deal with, but at the same time, its has absolutely no defensive utility at all. That's fairly obvious, but the consequences of that are that its one dimensional and therefore is limited in what it can offer a team. This means that if you're facing a team Duggy can't revenge much on, its actual dead weight (you might think the same of Magneton, but Maggy has usable defense, good resistances and can lure in "counters" and cripple them or pull off a surprise (special mention to Teh Umbys EndureSalac variant).
     
  13. Awoken

    Awoken New Member

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    By "where the hell is it," I meant where the hell is it on the list, seeing how CALLOUS loves it so much. And I can believe the number of people who are using it, given how much he hyped it up, like he did Jynx a while back.
    Personally, I think that many of the unconventional sets you listed aren't effective at all... I know they're just examples, but Defensive Meta and Pursuit Meta have the same counters as normal Metagross, excluding maybe Forretress? (not to mention that Meta's Pursuit is extremely weak). Pert's too slow to endeavor effectively, and ALL Pert lose to Celebi still, no matter how gimmicky (don't you pull CB HPbug on me). Physical Rachi's almost as bad as special Gyarados, imo. And what is it supposed to do, exactly? I guess it can para DDtar but still, I can't see how it would be very useful, considering it has a very limited physical movepool. I mention Salamence as unpredictable because it has the stat distribution and movepool to be unconventional yet effective.
    CM/Psychic/HP[Fire]/Giga Drain Celebi is no joke. Once Snorlax and Bliss are out of the way, this thing can devastate a lot of teams right now. As a plus, the specially defensive normals aren't good switch-ins to the standard leech seed set; also this Celebi demolishes the Tyranitar/Gengar/Forretress core that is everywhere. In addition, Jabba's team has been a staple of ADV for quite a while, probably one of the most copied teams of all time, and come Smogon tour, I guarantee you that at least 1 in 10 people will be using it. It was better when Celebi was all the rage, though.
    "This means that if you're facing a team Duggy can't revenge much on, its actual dead weight"
    May I ask you which team does not have either Tyranitar or Celebi? At least one of these is on pretty much any competitive ADV team. Metagross and Bliss are quite common also. Although it may seem that Dugtrio isn't pulilng its weight defensively, while it doesn't really counter anything, it's a good check to a lot of things.
    All in all, this list will always be subjective, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. This sort of thread is very nice, though, because of the discussion it brings.
     
  14. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    Firstly, I know that that's something that Callous said about Cacturne (in passing, so I don't think it should be taken so literally), but since tiers are not based on usage in ADV, and since Cacturne is actually even worse off in UU than it is in OU, I'm afraid Cacturne is not going to be moving up to BL any time soon. That's no reason that it can't be on this list though, but please note that this list was last updated before this whole "Cacturne craze" began so obviously, it doesn't appear on the list for that reason... It would still be really low on this list though because honestly it's not THAT great.

    Jabba's team is still really common, but it's so predictable and well prepared for by good players that people should honestly give it a rest already - _ - Offensive Celebi and Superachi are still obviously very good and very common even off of that team though, referring to them as a passed "phase" is sort of silly. That particular offensive Cune on the other hand is not that common (or that good imo) but Subcune is great, and quit underrated! To be honest, if one thing is to change about this list, Suicune should replace Swampert in that top tier, and maybe even move ahead of Gengar. Because of the prominence of Mixtar/Specialtar, Swampert has dropped a bit both in utility and usage. That same Tyranitar isn't helping Gengar's case much either, with Pursuit being everywhere, but Gengar is still a top threat regardless.

    Dugtrio is good and all but I think it's fine where it is as well. It's not better than any of those Pokemon above it. I also disagree that it doesn't have "any defensive utility" though. You should never use Dugtrio as a "counter" for something, but it can serve to pick up some "defensive slack" for your team. For example, Milotic is an excellent bulky water, but as a counter for DDtar, it's only decent at best. If you have Dugtrio, you don't have to worry as much about DDTar sweeping your team because it got a lucky flinch on Milotic or because spikes were up or something though. Similarly, it has as much defensive synergy with something like offensive Cune as it has offensive synergy. On one hand it picks off Tyranitar so Cune doesn't have to deal with it, but on the other hand it can get things like Blissey and Celebi out of the way quickly. Also, just knowing your opponent has a Dugtrio, or even suspecting that they might have Dugtrio, you have to be more careful when using things like Superachi and CMkou. You can't get too predictable with your switchins, and when you do switch in, you can essentially NEVER Calm Mind right away, because if Dugtrio comes in it gets a free OHKO. This makes both of those threats much easier to deal with, and you can in turn leave that Earthquake off of your Snorlax or that Seismic Toss off of your Regice in favor of what may turn out to be a more useful move. In these respects, Dugtrio has "defensive utility." It acts as a safety net against a number of threats so that even if they kill one of your pokemon, they'll never sweep your team, and it also prevents your opponent from being as aggressive with their sweepers. A well played Dugtrio can also keep Magneton away from your Skarmory or Forretress, which is also more "defensive utilization" than anything.

    I also agree that Mence needs to get bumped up though, and I think it's kind of absurd to compare Wishmence to things like defensive Metagross or physical Jirachi(Although, Endeavorpert IS very threathening. It does need tons of support to work well though, whereas Wishmence can throw a wrench into the works on its own). First of all, Salamence's standard sets are more threatening to common teams than Metagross' (except for Explosion of course, but Explosion sort of makes your other sweepers more threatening rather than Metagross itself). CbGross is incredibly vulnerable to Spikes, and unfortunately, Forretress is a pretty good switch-in for that set, able to either set up some free layers of Spikes or Earthquake. Meanwhile, even if you get lucky with Attack Raises or what have you, you know the opponent is going to have a bulky water ready to back up Forretress. Metagross gets worn down by Spikes much more quickly than Mence gets worn down by Sandstream. Additionally, against CBmence, it's much more of a prediction game, since bulky waters are 3HKOd by HP Flying (2HKO'd with Spikes) and any Flying resistances the opponent has can be disposed of with Earthquake (which still hits waters very hard) or Fire Blast. Forretress doesn't even resist Flying to make matters worse, so it's not setting up on Mence most of the time. Physical Jirachi is just bad > _ >

    As for Wishmence, when you see Mence initially, you HAVE to go to your Bulky Water/Claydol unless you want to give it free Dragon Dances, which makes it extremely easy for Wishmence to just throw out a Toxic off the bat and hit an important wall. Wish support is also really useful coming from Mence when you consider the things that switch into Wishmence (Blissey, Snorlax, Water types, Zapdos) because you can pass wishes to things like Zapdos, Suicune, Snorlax, Metagross, Tyranitar, etc pretty easily. Overall Mence should probably be above things like Metagross and Forretress but not above Blissey, Skarmory, Snorlax, Zapdos, Swampert, or Cune. I also think Skarm should be bumped down a slot or two and Metagross should be at the bottom of that second Tier. I'm not sure how I'd stack Jirachi against Mence. They're about even for me.

    So:
    SS
    Tyranitar
    Celebi
    Suicune
    Gengar

    S
    Snorlax
    Swampert
    Zapdos
    Blissey
    Skarmory
    Salamence
    Jirachi
    Forretress
    Metagross

    and the rest is fine.
     
    autumn leaves likes this.
  15. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

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    Dugtrio and Heracross should be tier S too.
    Heracross is so underrated, and Dugtrio just traps and kills half of the most common threats.

    Forretress tier S? Its too high, Forry is a worse spiker than skarm, and a much worse spinner than Starmie
     
  16. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    True, but Forry does both with the same set. Not disagreeing with Forry being too high, though, it literally does nothing but play the Spikes game, it offers little to no synergy whatsoever.
     
  17. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l Member

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    The only reason I think Forry should be that high is because since it's used so much you have to prepare for it a bit more. I honestly think it's a shitty Pokemon and I never even really consider using it when I make a team (that probably has more to do with my playstyle than anything I suppose)... but I always keep my options for beating it QUICKLY in mind. It's really spikes that are threatening rather than Forretress itself, but it sets them up pretty easily and has earthquake/hp bug/Gengar to keep them down, and that has some significant effects on the way teams are built, or at least the way I build teams. For example, I'll rarely use Starmie without a good amount of defensive investment or reflect, I'll rarely use Claydol without Psychic AND HP Fire (although I rarely use Claydol anyway because I don't like it), half of the time I use Skarmory I put Taunt on it. A lot of the time I opt to not even use Skarmory on my team to Spike (especially not without a ghost and/or spinner) because i'd rather not have it blanked and set up on by Forretress for the majority of the game, so I'll use some form of Salamence instead to give Forretress even less room to set up. Maybe I'm going a bit overboard, but most things that work to keep Forretress out of the game work against Skarmory too, so it's not too bad. But just for perspective, both of the teams used in the ADV battle of the smogon tour finals used Forretress, and one of them had hp fire for enemy Forretress.
     
  18. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    Been quite a while since I updated this so... I updated it!
     
  19. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Are your comments about the state of the metagame also updated? I don't play this generation but I like to keep track of metagames so that I can seem knowledgeable.
     
  20. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    I wonder when the smogonites will listen to me when I say P2 is OU material...

    Also what happened to the rest of the tiers?
     
  21. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    I updated the entire thing including the metagame. Meteor, read. I removed the other tiers and I explained why.
     
  22. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    I read everything except that paragraph :x

    Minor nitpick but isn't the whole SS/S thing a bit redundant now that half the pokes are removed? Might as well have A/B/C
     
  23. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I think that the S/A/B arrangement is better, S is a more apparent set-apart than A/B/C and for your description of SS I think S/A/B is better. This is how tiers for things like fighting games are done and they make the right impact.
     
  24. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    Honestly, while Gar and Cune are obviously better than the likes of Lax and Zap, they're not that ahead to where its really significant imo, so the current S to A difference isn't all THAT great. BUt again, its a really minor, trivial, flavour thing we're discussing here :x
     
  25. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

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    I think that Suicune should be #2 (this is subjective though)
    Duggy should be S tier, maybe Raikou and Snorlax should be a bit lower, Heracross should be much higher, P2 should be lower, and you should add some threats like Medicham maybe
     
  26. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    Yeah, Duggy for S. As long as Celebi and Tar are top threats it will always have high relevance in the meta, and when you're placing other things such as Meta, Jirachi and Raikou as high tier mons theres really no reason Duggy shouldn't thrive, aside from P2, which doesn't stop Duggy getting a kill in. Heracross should probably be ranked a bit higher, and I think Zapdos is better than Lax. I'm almost convinced that it should reside in some borderline realm between SS and S because its such a reliable mon I almost never regret using. Everything else is fine where it is. Porygon2 especially.
     
  27. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    Thanks for feedback all. I'll keep updating this thing from time to time as needed.
     
  28. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    Think this needs an update. TTar isn't as good as it was, Gar is on nearly every good team now. Spike/Spinners are taking prevalence over Skarm. Probably some other minor things but these are things I've picked up on since I got back.
     
  29. B. Rizzo

    B. Rizzo A relic of the past, given new life.

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    I would just use Smogon's tiers honestly, more time and effort built into putting it together. It's a tried and true metagame.
     
  30. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    This isn't a tier list, just how good a pokemon is in the current metagame. Well, CALLOUS' informed opinion, since he's one of the better ADV players that lurk around here.
     
  31. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    Currently I feel TTar is less threatening than it was, even though its still great. Gengar on the other hand has consistently broke open games both for me and against me more than ever before and therefore I feel it is the best mon in the current metagame. It simply has too many ways to screw with things. It has no troubles finding methods to get in and there is no way to reliably check it without potentially instantly putting something at risk, and additionally unlike everything else its not a simple matter attempting to scout it out since its many builds all look similar initially. Theres a good chance you won't know exactly what you're dealing with until too late.

    I never said Skarm was bad. I said Spike/Spinning is becoming more prevalent.

    I'm not stupid enough to take the adv ladder seriously and I'd like to think I'm entitled to my opinion.
     
  32. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    In ADV, Tyranitar is the best pokemon.
    It can run Choice Banded, Special, Mixed, SubPunch, Sub Attacks, Support, Sweeping, you name it - Tyranitar can do it.
    With amazing bulky and diverse stats....it's really an extrodinary ADV pokemon.
    Sure, it isn't what it was a few months, and definetly not a year, ago - but, I still love Tyranitar in ADV and it's a top-tier threat...



    EDIT:
    (22:18) Treecko: you sound like you are writing a diary entry about tar
    (22:18) Treecko: and you have a huge crush on it
    (22:18) Treecko: in that post

    O_o
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2013
  33. Awoken

    Awoken New Member

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    Gengar would be better if Pursuit Tyranitar wasn't so ridiculously popular. That being said, ADV games in my opinion are won and lost by whoever can keep more spikes down; there is far more switching than in later gens and spikes are more powerful than in previous gens. Gengar is pretty much the only viable spinblocker, though Dusclops is not unusable.
    Anyhow, this could really use an update. It's been almost half a year.
     
  34. MarcoPierreWhite

    MarcoPierreWhite New Member

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    I agree with meteor here - the more focal spikes become in adv, the more focal Gengar becomes as the sole viable spinblocker and as such method of keeping Spikes up. Gar is so versatile as well, it can go defensive and break stalls with Taunt and WoW, or it can boom (it has the best targets in the game), follow up with Dug, and profit. Hell, it can even Hypnosis to defend against PursuitTars if that's what you're into. TTar ain't what it was either - it's still no. 2 definitely, but Gar is no.1 now.
     
  35. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    this reasoning seems backwards. I feel like more people use pursuit ttar now mainly because gengar has become ridiculously popular as of late. it's also the reason ttar doesn't seem as good, since literally every team has an answer to it at this point.
     
  36. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    In addition to that, one could by that logic say "TTar would be better if Dugtrio wasn't so ridiculously popular", which, whilst it may be true, evidently doesn't stop TTar from being a top tier poke anyway.
     
  37. B. Rizzo

    B. Rizzo A relic of the past, given new life.

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    And you're right, he's pretty good. IDK why he doesn't run the ADV gym anymore.
     
  38. Awoken

    Awoken New Member

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    Except Dugtrio is good for other things while Pursuit Tyranitar is primarily for Gengar (chip damage on fleeing CB Mence and Aero is far less relevant). Anyhow both of them put up a good fight against their potential trappers (Tyranitar is usually EVed to live Dugtrio's Earthquake and Gengar has Hypnosis)
     
  39. Meteor64

    Meteor64 TM1337 Falcon Punch

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    Bulkygar with Giga can also beat PursuitTar one on one if it switches in on a Tbolt/Giga Drain. At any rate its still a mute point, both Dugtrio and PursuitTar are a common sight and yet they don't stop TTar and Gar being top class mons.
     
  40. assange

    assange New Member

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    I'm new here. Hope I'm not breaking any rules.

    You guys don't seem to understand the point of using Pursuit Tyranitar. You guys seem to think that its main job is to trap Gengar because Gengar is prevalent in the modern RSE metagame. This is partly true. However, all of you are missing a huge piece of the puzzle. The main reason why Tyranitar uses Pursuit is because of Forretress(curse eq snorlax too but mostly forre). Without Pursuit, Forretress is deadweight in many scenarios. It can't spin and an opposing spinner can come in later and get rid of your spikes. Yes, Tyranitar is also good at Pursuiting CB mons locked into a move that Tyranitar resists, or wall breaking; but, Tyranitar fails to do the latter well because in the Gengar vs Tyranitar matchup, if Tyranitar didn't lose, it's probably very weak and statused.

    Meteor, can you elaborate why you thought that Tyranitar was less threatening in the metagame at the time of your post? If the metagame is being centered around spikes, then DD Tyranitar shines in that meta, leaving Flygon as Ttar's best check. Gengar is an excellent Pokemon, capable of filling many more roles than Tyranitar; however, no Pokemon in ADV is nearly as powerful as Dragon Dance Tyranitar.

    This is my list:
    SS-

    Tyranitar - most threatening mon in adv. shapes meta with ability
    Gengar - fills many roles. lure, defensive spinblocker, hera check, lax check, etc. great with spikes. versatile
    Celebi - worse than gengar because it's worse on offense than gengar. it's better defensively, sure, but weak to dugger.
    Suicune

    S-

    Dugtrio-hard to debate that he's not top 3 here. traps anything weak to his moves. can kill bliss, lax, regi, etc, if weakened.
    Skarm - best physical wall. beats every spinner not named forre. he's great. people just need to learn to play around magneton better ^_^
    Blissey - beats nearly every special attacker. nice movepool. stop using cm though. it's bad and checks fewer things @[email protected]
    Salamence - this guy can switch with heracross. just gonna stick with mence cause he's really bulky and is more consistent than heracross
    Heracross - super scary mon. with mag support, sub salac is nasty. SD 3 attacks is nasty to since no one uses skarm with real attacking moves(drill peck, hp fly).
    Snorlax - good special wall. hits hard. lures skarm and hits hard with fire blast. booms. teams built around curselax are really good
    Zapdos - really dangerous mon. passing a sub to tyranitar is often gg. passing an agility to marowak is often gg. zapdos is the best stat passer in adv. the specially defensive roar set is also really good with some spikes. needs prediction though
    Metagross -

    A-

    Swampert- checks all physical mons sept fighters. rock resist is huge. has decent niche sets
    Aerodactyl -he owns
    Flygon - best ttar answer. good lategame.
    Forretress - sucks but he has a good typing and lasts longer than cloy. he can also hurt claydol and starmie which is a good thing for a spiker to have.
    Milotic - good. can sleep, can poison. decent wall. checks certain cunes. good
    Porygon2 - really good in certain situations. good vs dug. good vs gyara and mence. toxic + arena trap is really good. Toxic p2 is also a great cm bliss answer
    Cloyster - good but bad typing.
    -----------------
    Regice - hits really hard. great special wall. checks a decent amount of things.
    Claydol - deadweight mostly but it can beat gengar. resistance to rock and immunity to ground is important
    Gyarados - he's gonna move way up soon i can feel it. weak to gengar and p2 but i think i might change my mind about him in the near future
    Starmie - deadweight but has recover. fast and beats gengar. can be evd to beat dd mence or dd gyara
    Houndoom - really underrated. best answer to jira and celebi in the game. beats gengar too. he cant break anything though and has numerous other problems that u guys know about.
    Vaporeon - meh
     
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