1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Guest, PO has ceased our separate tiering and adopted Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.

    Dismiss Notice

[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Eviolite/NFE situation

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by pokemonnerd, Sep 8, 2011.

  1. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,894
    Likes Received:
    886
    Oh look, another thread where we discuss some possibilities for balancing a certain aspect of the game. This seems to be happening a lot with the tiers I'm leading...

    Anyway, remember when Astrohawke made that NFE thread way back in the beginning of last month, when Smeargle and Wobb were roaming free? Well, after giving the metagame some time to settle and balancing rain and hail, we've been able to actually look at what individual pokemon can do. And with that, some people think Eviolite deserves a ban. So, we have a few options:

    1) Ban Eviolite: Well, this is the logical action to take: if something makes a group of pokemon broken, you ban the thing that makes them broken.

    2) Ban certain NFE pokemon: This is more of a conservative approach; instead of just banning the item, you ban the pokemon that are broken with the item.

    In order to keep this as least biased as possible, I kept those short, but those are the two things myself and Luck(Django's away for now) are thinking of doing. So, discuss. Try to keep your posts reasonable, do not talk about things you have not tested or at least faced, and back them up with facts(calcs are always nice).

    Also, please try and keep your posts at least 1 sentence long, and elaborate on a point when you try to make one. For example, posting one word, like "trick" all by itself does not contribute anything at all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2011
  2. KnightOwlAshley

    KnightOwlAshley Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    196
    Likes Received:
    44
    PO Trainer Name:
    KnightOwlAshley
    Ban certain pokemon only.
     
  3. DTC

    DTC Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do not think we should ban Eviolite, it makes a lot of pokemon more viable. I think it is healthy for the metagame as it gives extra things that can check attackers. Also the ones that have useful niches such as spinning also are a lot more usable thanks to Eviolite. Banning certain abusers seems more appropriate.

    I think we should just look at certain abusers, here are 4 abusers I think that are noteworthy:

    -Ferroseed: I don't really think Ferroseed is broken but, spikes are really deadly in this metagame and when combined with Frillish it is incredibly hard to beat.
    -Frillish: Again Frillish isn't THAT bad but it is really bulky and defeats all spinners. (It likes some clerics helping it though.) It makes stall a lot harder to beat and like I said earlier, it is a fearsome combo with Ferroseed.
    -Gligar: Here is where the problems begin. Gligar checks/counters so many NU threats, about 70% of NU pokemon. (rough estimate) Not only that but it can shut down stall pretty easily and give trouble to offense as well as being able to pass +2/+2 boosts very easily. (Through Swords Dance+Agility+Baton Pass) There are almost no hazards in NU which makes this strategy even better.
    -Gurdurr: The most "broken" of all eviolite pokemon imo. It is incredibly hard to beat without using Gligar, Exeggutor and Musharna. Also when it gets a guts boost and starts boosting up... good luck. It also makes a pretty decent candidate for a SD/Agility pass. (Allowing it to get past it's common counter- Gligar.)

    Anyways like I said I don't really think Ferroseed and Frillish are broken but they are worth looking into.
     
  4. Vahnyu

    Vahnyu Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trick.
     
  5. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    Juggler
    I'd say ban just the problem Pokemon. Or, even just ban Eviolite with them. Gligar can be okay without Eviolite, as can Gurrdur (maybe. Strongest MP user I think, and TR is fun).

    I sure hate eviolite, but outside the main abusers it isn't broken, just like how Rain wouldn't have been broken if Ludicolo and Kabutops had both not been in the tier.

    Counters I can think of are Knock Off Hariyama (who is only beaten by the unusual SD/Acrobatics Gligar, I think) and Trick abusers, although they can only affect a single eviolite user.

    Maybe make a slightly complex ban, like 'no more than 2 eviolites on a team' (number random), or 'No eviolite Frillish + eviolite Ferroseed' (if that turns out to be the broken duo).
     
  6. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    138
    PO Trainer Name:
    Stephen Colbur
    Honeslty, no NFE is blatantly broken on it's own with Eviolite. Gligar is the one that comes closets, but it's weakness to the ever-popular bulky waters hinders it greatly. The only way NFEs are broken is on NFE stall teams, which can be beaten, however that require using unviable pokes most of the time, such as Mixed Expert Belt Luxray. Knock Off(and too a lesser extent Trick) is also a hindrance to NFE stall teams, so if your team is weak to them, slapping knock off on something qill usually prove to be beneficial as it's not too hard to hit one or more of the 4-5 NFE pokes on said teams.

    The staple pokemon of said teams are: Gligar, Munchlax, Frillish, Ferroseed/Roselia, while some other ones sometimes partake.

    My opinion is that instead of banning an item, the ban of which will make a whole host of pokemon unviable again, just ban the pokemon that make NFE spam broken. I don't feel that it's too hard to discuss and test and come to a conclusion about which pokemon are the ones breaking NFE stall. We gain nothing valuable by banning Eviolite, whilst we maintain several viable pokemon if we ban the broken parties. It's in no way comparable to the Damp Rock ban, as in this case we literally keep nothing other than the ever-gimmicky Acrobatics/Flight Gem/SD/Sub/EQ Gligar, whilst we lose Lickytongue, Gurdurr, Rhydon, Shelgon, misreavus, Golbat, Metang and whichever of the stapleso f NFE temas aren't deemed to be broken.
     
  7. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,538
    Likes Received:
    0
    yes i know i reported inactive but i honestly figure i might as well post here as i found a chance and i still know the meta.

    ban Aboosers if they prove Broken.

    the usable NFEs (and Corresponding usefulnesses):
    Lairon (Rocks [Assuming the is no ban], excellent mixed bulk, Roar, Rock Head Head Smash or Strudy, EQ/Edge, effectively a Mixed Eviolite Wall that isn't a Sitting duck the ability to beat Coil Eelektross (even DT variants with about 28 speed EVs to outpace the Sassy ones)
    Rhydon (Rocks + possible 414/550+ physical bulk is great, EdgeQuake has like no resists in NU so a double booster is possible (SD + RP), Access to Roar, and i think there is something else but i can't remember).
    Roselia ([T-]Spikes, Aromatherepy, Leech Seed, Enough SAtk to get mileage from Giga Drain, Sleep Powder, good Mixed bulk with Eviolite, and Rest + Natural Cure)
    Munchlax Extremely bulky Special Wall but can't hit and needs restalk to heal though it does get Whirlwind)
    Ferroseed (Rock/Spikes, Leech Seed, Iron Thorns for extra Residual damage, Solid Mixed Bulk)
    Frillish (Ghost type and can beat the tiers Spinners easilly enough, Recover, Bulky Water, WOW, Taunt)
    Gligar (Immune to Electric and Ground, access to Roost, Rocks, STAB EQ and passable Attack Stat, SD + RP + BP, Taunt)
    Lickytung (Solid bulk, Access to DT, Access to Wish (though it should commit to Physical or Special wall due to the new Wish Mechanic), Heal Bell)
    Shelgon (excelent Physcal wall +1 LO Sheer force Gatr's Ice Punch doesn't quite 2HKO, Wish, Roar, DD, Outrage)
    Dragonair (DD, Rest + Shed Skin, Outrage, Great mixed Bulk just an all around underrated bulky Sweeper)
    Gurdurr (BU, Drain Punch + Payback, Mach Punch)
    Misdreavus (Another Spinbloker though largely inferior to Frillish due to unreliable Recovery and lack of a useful secondary typing, though it has Leviate and Perish Trapping)
    Golbat (good Bulk, Roost, Super Fang, Whirlwind, BB)
    Metang (decent Defensive Typing, Good Bulk, Meteor Mash, Rocks, Bullet Punch)

    if i've missed something i apologize in advance for anything that is missing mention it and hopefully i'll find a chance tommorow night.

    Also i Apolgize for the Abreviations i needed to finish this with Relative Speed.
     
  8. Noog

    Noog So much potential...

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    368
    Likes Received:
    6
    I'd like to choose "C) None of the above."

    Building off of Pokemonnerd's comment, "No one Eviolite Pokemon is broken by itself.", I suggest a semi-complex ban of having more than one Eviolite user on any team. This won't require either banning a boatload of Pokémon or making half of NU unviable, but it will limit the power of Eviolite stall considerably. A single Eviolite abuser can't do much -- without either Ferroseed, Omanyte or Gligar, it'd be hard to get hazards up in this tier. Without Frillish, those hazards are going to be spun away. And if a team uses the core with one Pokémon not holding an Eviolite, that Pokémon's bulk is considerably lowered.

    And don't say that PO doesn't do complex bans. Look at the Rain Poll for OU -- one of the main choices is a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban. In addition, in Monotype, there's a ban on having more than two of certain Dragon-types in a single team. Those are just some examples of complex bans that PO authority have either made or suggested.
     
  9. DTC

    DTC Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well after a bit of testing, I've found out that "Eviolite Spam" (Teams that have 4-5 eviolite mons and 1-2 really powerful mons (ex: Bravairy) ) are extremely effective and hard to beat. They are incredibly strong defensive teams that can take pretty much every hit that comes to them. (Of course it has a status absorber/cleric too like Gurdurr) I think they are too hard to beat as they can easily start setting spikes while making it impossible to spin them away while forcing many switches. Not only that but quite a few eviolite mons have decent attacking prowess.

    I think (and a few other PNU people) that the best way to nerf these teams is to make a restriction. Something like you can't use more then 1-2 eviolite mons on your team. 2 would limit them greatly and the only really strong 2 pokemon core with eviolite is Ferroseed/Frillish while also not limiting diversity too much. However if 2 eviolite mons prove to be too over powered we could always limit it to 1. It's a semi-complex ban but I think it's the best way to do it.

    (Dang, noog ninja'd me. Eh I'll keep this here as it has some things that noog's post doesn't.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
  10. Wavy

    Wavy prince of the sea Server Moderator Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2010
    Messages:
    394
    Likes Received:
    67
    I'm thirding the eviolite limit idea. It'd solve the problem of eviolite spam without banning things that aren't broken, as we all agree no single eviolite abuser is broken.
     
  11. "DJ Shadow"

    "DJ Shadow" Guest

    I've never had a problem with eviolite due to using knock off on support pokes over things like toxic and thunder wave, but that's just me.
     
  12. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,703
    Likes Received:
    7
    If the problem is only 3 or less pokemon, I'd say ban the individual pokemon. I don't think Frillish and Ferroseed need nerfing in the slightest.
     
  13. DTC

    DTC Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's the combination of multiple in one team (All supporting each other and making an almost unbreakable core) that makes them broken, not any individual one. The only individual ones that are only slightly broken are Gligar and Gurdurr.
     
  14. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,504
    Likes Received:
    1,601
    Then I would suggest banning those and then seeing what is the most powerful afterwards, this of course assumes the Eviolite teams are broken (IMO I don't believe they are)
     
  15. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    1,703
    Likes Received:
    7
    In fact, I've found Eviolite cores to be underwhelming. Lack of Leftovers and offensive presence makes them really susceptible to residual damage and set-up, respectively.
     
  16. Judas

    Judas Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not to mention having a defensive core susceptible to Knock Off can really bite you in the ass.

    The "broken" ones (Gligar and Gurdurr) are only "broken" because they're good with or without eviolite. I personally don't believe they're broken, just quoting other people.
     
  17. emac

    emac Emad

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    381
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would definitely opt to ban just the eviolite abusers that are deemed broken as I do not believe that the vast majority of viable eviolite users are broken. I also apologize for not being around at all during these recent suspect discussions, verizon is retarded and i haven't had internet for 8 days (I'm posting this from a starbucks). Rating decay is gonna be a bitch.
     
  18. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,894
    Likes Received:
    886
    Well, Luck just wants a straight ban on Eviolite, Django is gone for a little bit so I don't know where he stands, and I'm still undecided if Eviolite in itself is broken or not. What I want to do is limit the number you can have on your team down to 1 or 2. I mean, I think everyone that has posted here can agree that one eviolite user is not broken by itself. However, the thing is, people don't have to run full eviolite teams. Having a simple 3 pokemon core with Eviolite makes it extremely hard for any semblance of offense to be made against the team. As many hard hitters as there seems to be in the tier, NU just doesn't have the power to push through cores like Rhydon/Golbat/Munchlax, while some of the abusers(Rhydon, Golbat to an extent) can still hit back extremely hard whilst having that incredible bulk.

    Also, something with Knock Off is very easily prepared for and dealt with, because of the very poor distribution of the move. Something like, let's use Hariyama with Knock Off for an example, is very easily dealt with by some other pokemon, like Musharna for example. Some abusers just flat out beat them, like Golbat always wins against Hariyama.

    I will say that things like Eelektross - anything that have ridiculously coverage or have good mixed capabilities - can break Eviolite cores. However, most pokemon either can't afford to go mixed or are easily walled when going special. For example, Eel breaks a lot of the eviolite cores going special. However, if any of them have Munchlax, it simply can't break it even with acid spray, not to mention it's horribly susceptible to any status.
     
  19. Drigger

    Drigger Fabula Nova Crystallis

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,001
    Likes Received:
    0
    Evoilite NFE Pokemon By themselves are far from being broken and I think it brings a nice defensive balance to the NU metagame.

    Gligar/Golbat/Ferroseed/Frillish/Likitung/Shelgon/Roselia are a few examples of NFE Pokemon that does well as walls and have access to reliable recovery Roost/Wish/Recover/*Leech Seed (not really but worth mentioning).

    Knock Off is the most reliable way of dealing with Evoilite Pokemon. NU has Pelipper/Swoobat/Armaldo/Hariyama/Cinccino/Crawdaunt/Machoke... which are more than enough to deal with Evoilite Pokemon IMO. There is also Switcheroo and Trick.

    Banning Evoilite just makes a bunch of Pokemon in NU less useful. I think it would be better to ban the Major abusers.

    DONT BAN GOLBAT !!
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2011
  20. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,894
    Likes Received:
    886
    Alright, we've decided to ban individual pokemon instead of the item. However, if we ban 4 or more NFEs, Eviolite will be banned instead and the other pokemon's bans will be lifted.
     
  21. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    2
    Bumping coz Hazard thread. So far we've banned Gligar. If we ban Frillish and Misdreavus does that mean you would ban eviolite on the whole or do you still need 1 more pnerd?
     
  22. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,254
    Likes Received:
    28
    So elaborate and thoughtful.

    I say option 2, not all NFEs prove to be overwhelming.
     
  23. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    2
    Vicu, the actual method has already been decided on, the post above mine states it...
     
  24. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    138
    PO Trainer Name:
    Stephen Colbur
    I am going to summarize my (updated to be current)thoughts on the matter mainly because it is unlikely anyone is going to read through the whole thread again.

    My opinion is that banning Eviolite is the wrong way to go about things. Unlike damp rock, banning Eviolite will not preserve the variety of NU. Damp rock's ban kept things that weren't broken outside of rain legal, things that are actually good pokemon, like Kabutops and Ludicolo. Eviolite's ban will do no such thing. Is anyone going to use Misdreavus without Eviolite? Frillish? Metang? Shelgon? Gurdur? Dragonair? Ferroseed? Munchlax? Rhydon? Roselia? My feeling is that the answer to that question is "No". By banning Eviolite we will just be removing the viability of 10+ pokemon. By banning the abusers themselves we will have the exact same effect, except ONLY the broken ones will be illegal. Making Gurdurr unusable because Gligar, Frillish, Misdreavus and Tangela(lets assume it's broken) are broken does not seem beneficial to me in any way, shape or form. It's merely a cop-out. Removing non-game-breaking parts of the metagame for the sake of simplicity(not non-complexity) is not the proper way to shape a metagame.

    Firstly, "too many" is completely subjective. The choice bewteen 3 and 4, 4 and 5 etc. is completely arbitrary. Ignoring that, the initial eviolite complaints died down and for good reason. Eviolite stopped being an issue because people realised Eviolite mons are part of NU's metagame. People used to complain about how "Eviolite makes NU OU-lite" and when they figured out that isn't true in the slightest they stopped. I would also appreciate argumentation behind why banning pokemon to maintain diversity seems ridiculous to you, because at the moment there is nothing to respond to. Keeping the banlist small is not a valid reason to ban Eviolite. By banning eviolite you effectively ban 8+ pokemon that are not anywhere near being broken in order to keep things simple.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2011
  25. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    Juggler
    I have to agree with Vuvu. Banning individual pokemon is better in my eyes than banning the item, when banning the item would simply mean that the pokemon we'd ban under normal circumstances would get banned as well as Pokemon who truly aren't broken with it (Metang Roselia etc etc). Eviolite is a strong item added to the metagame, but not one that is excessive.

    How is Eviolite broken? It boosts certain pokemon's abilities to a higher level. Let's ban Choice Band as well, because with it Zweilous becomes stronger than Rayquaza, and many sweepers that wouldn't otherwise get kills do. Same thing for Life Orb, and Choice Specs. This is obviously not a good idea, because it's not the item's fault that these pokemon's stats make them broken in this tier; it's the Pokemon who should be banned. Rushing to ban Eviolite because there are a few cases of pokemon broken with a single item shouldn't be how we do this.
     
  26. Platinum

    Platinum ~tilde~

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2010
    Messages:
    783
    Likes Received:
    2
    So far I'm testing Eviolite-spam team in NU, and a reminder that the current NU is different from the NU of September (!) I used a 3-Eviolite, it works great as almost nothing can break through the Eviolite mon if you wisely choose a core with good synergy. And after that I spammed a 4-Eviolite team, and it works great too. The success of my Evilolite teams makes me really reconsider the situation of Eviolite in the current NU. Sure there are mix sweepers such as Eelek or Tauros that can break through Eviolite core (Tauros is not that great tbh), but the vast majority of sweepers in NU focus on either physical or special attack, and therefore they will find it hard to break a good Eviolite-core team (from my experience of spamming Eviolite).

    /elaboration

    From my experience, I would like to express my opinion that no single Eviolite mon is broken, but the combination of several Eviolite mon really, really limits the potential of the sweepers in NU. In order to fully understand the situation, let's list all the viable Eviolite Mon at the moment: Tangela, Golbat, Magneton, Ferroseed, Frillish, Roselia, Duosion, Misdreavus, Rhydon, Metang, Wartortle, Gurrdurr, Munchlax. And also there are the less common ones: Shelgon, Combusken, Dragonair, Piloswine, Fraxture, Tentacool (Piloswine is rising in useage though). They are all the possible Eviolite users you can use in NU from what I have seen (no theorymon allowed). There are a huge numbers on Eviolite users already, and they can form a very good synergy for a defensive Eviolite core. For example, the Physically Defensive Golbat + Spdef Metang combination , or the classic combination of Grass + Frillish (aka Tangela + Frillish) is very hard to break through for an average sweeper of NU. Sure there are still ways around them, but just by using them, you can be assured that you wall a large proportion of NU. There are several other combinations that are viable, and they are not limited to 2 Eviolite :3

    As a result, Eviolite(s), while not being significant if used individually, is really a problem if they are used by 3, or more, Pokemon in a team (assuming that you don't spam Eviolite blindly of course). Eviolite doesn't make any single Pokemon broken (not even Duosion, my "Duosion broken" on the server was a joke :3), but it limits the metagame potential when used collectively. I think we should at least do a 2-week testban to see whether or not the meta is better, or at least, as mentioned, limit the number of Eviolite users to 2 per team (this is complex, I don't fully support it though, I prefer straight ban, or no ban at all). Tbh, I just know that Eviolite is very effective, but whether or not it negatively affects the meta? I'm not sure...

    I wanted to further analyze the uses of Eviolite Pokemon, but no one will read my analysis, so n :3

    P/s: just like the Wobbuffet's case in UU, Eviolite-spamming is not used enough in NU (there are ppl who spammed Eviolite, but usually the teams were terribad), so I think not anyone can see how Eviolite-core limits or affects the meta.

    Edit: @Gal: it's a bit long if I want to do a good analysis, I will consider though. Also, WB GAL <3
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2014
  27. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    2
    I would read a further analysis Plat. The whole debacle is very interesting to me.
     
  28. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,894
    Likes Received:
    886
    Alright, I'm pretty sure I haven't run this by my secretary or Luck yet, but I'm thinking of putting a limit on eviolite; only allowing 1 per team. I think it's the best middle ground, since some people just want to ban it outright without giving it a chance while others don't think it's broken at all, while others think the cause is the combinations of pokemon that are available because of eviolite being around. 2 pokemon would be good to me, but imo 2 is more than enough to make an extremely powerful core and just wouldn't put any of the complaints to rest. Of course, if there's a huge amount of support for the 2 pokemon limit I'll gladly go with that.

    Whatever route we go, it'll almost certainly be a test ban, unless there's that much support for one option or the other.

    So, opinions?
     
  29. emac

    emac Emad

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    381
    Likes Received:
    0
    I really do support this idea, It would definitely hurt stall which is the outright most annoying thing to play against in NU. Good stall teams almost always run 2 or more eviolite users and it can be really tough and frustrating to try to break especially with the recent additions of Regirock, Steelix, and Lickylicky (especially Lickylicky) to help support them. I would also be in support of a suspect test on eviolite in general.
     
  30. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    2
    I'm all for it. that way I can still use Tangela or Duosion without having them all nerfed all together. It'll put a stop to Frillish + Tangela cores too which is a mixed thing. However I think the limit of one is the best way overall.
     
  31. Wavy

    Wavy prince of the sea Server Moderator Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2010
    Messages:
    394
    Likes Received:
    67
    Yes, I'm still in favor of the eviolite limit idea. Let's do it to it.

    I'd also support a (test) ban of eviolite as a whole, but I'm satisfied with the limit idea as well. Whatever gets this done fastest.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2011
  32. Green Eyed Russian

    Green Eyed Russian Perish Song Sirens

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    295
    Likes Received:
    5
    I support the Eviolite limit suggestion, probably the 2 Eviolite users per team one.
    I hope this limit will make NU tier more fluid,
    this tier had some significant changes from September and new insane and almost unbreakable cores were introduced,
    their main star is of course Eviolite.
    I agree with the other posts, Eviolite shouldn't be banned but just limited.
     
  33. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,538
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would Like to at least see what a limiter on the usage of Eviolite on teams would have, though While one is a good starting point to see what impact it has, but I would at least like to see 2 per team tested to see what differs between them.
     
  34. mael

    mael np: diary

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    207
    Only one Eviolite pwer team sounds really good it makes all these NFE Stall cores unusable but gives Pokemon like golbat or Ferro a chance to exist in that metagame :)
    Im supporting it, I think it will make the metagame more interesting and now I can use some pokemon without fearing that they are fodder for NFE stall lol :)
     
  35. 1996ITO

    1996ITO Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    201
    Likes Received:
    0
    In my opinion Eviolite mons aren't 'broken'. A good sinergy can come in on lots of moves, but what they cannot do is hitting back, so that's why they are used to carry annoying moves such Status and Hazards. What I've thought is to make Bulky pokemon with the move Substitute, it mostly cripples eviolate'd mons. I think the only broken mons by now is Gurdurr, Munchlax and Duosion, since they can take many attacks, have a recovery move and can attempt a late-game sweep; Rhydon lacks recovery, and there's a good amount of Water and Grass Mons.
     
  36. Platinum

    Platinum ~tilde~

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2010
    Messages:
    783
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well we all agree that no single Eviolie abuser is broken. The thing we are considering is whether or not Eviolite in large numbers cause problem. Substitute Mon can be phazed away, or you can even break their subs with a super effective move. Your first Eviolite mon may not be able to touch a particular subs, but your 2nd or 3rd Eviolite definitely can handle that Subs mon. And to be fair, bulky Substitute is not that common in NU with a few viable bulky abusers such as Hariyama, Golurk, Klinklang, and notably Whimsicott.
     
  37. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,539
    Likes Received:
    578
    PO Trainer Name:
    Luck>Skill
    Not able to hit back? Misdreavus has base 85 SAtk, which ISN'T bad at all in NU, and it can also Taunt. Tangela has base 100 SAtk, nothing OHKOs it, and has also Sleep Powder/Leech Seeds. Then there are the 3 pokes you listed, that have pretty high attacking stat. Munchlax has base 85 Atk, and has Whirlwind, so you can't exactly set up on its face. Golbat has base 80 Atk, and can Whirlwind things away, so you can't setup on it. The only pokemon now is Frillish, that has access to Taunt, Recover, and even if you taunt it, you /must/ be using a special attacker, otherwise Scald trolls you. Limiting the eviolite users to 1 per team is ok for me, at least I don't have to spam Knock Off Armaldo anymore
     
  38. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    2
    Don't forget Frillish's Night shade (and Missy) and Super Fang on Golbat. most walls don't usually have offensive presence (lolbliss/chansey), set damage moves do help.