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v 2.4.1


Brightpowder (On Garchomp)

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Discussion' started by Ashton Michaels, Mar 22, 2011.

  1. Ashton Michaels

    Ashton Michaels New Member

    Messages:
    240
    Hello,

    Maybe there's a topic about hax items in general already, but I can't find it, so I made this. Instead of taking all hax items, I'm focusing on the hax item most seen on the Dreamworld and WiFi ladder, Brightpowder.

    I'm sure everyone has faced a Brightpowder chomp before, because the item coupled with Garchomp's ability gives him great evasiveness, and it's just ridiculous sometimes how many hits it avoids.

    For all the people who think this is just a little increase:

    • Sand Veil gives 20 percent evasiveness
    • Brightpowder gives 10 percent evasiveness
    So a 100 percent accuracy move now has the edit: accuracy of 72! (same as Focus Blast, Thunder, Blizzard). If you're using moves with 90 percent accuracy, it's even more ridiculous.

    Last gen one of the reasons Garchomp was banned was because of the combination of his ability and ability to increase his already outstanding stats further with Swords Dance. Well there may be lots of new (Dragon) threats in gen 5, Garchomp still is the most annoying dragon to face.

    I think brightpowder should be banned in the Dream World OU and Wi-Fi OU ladder. The item just makes Garchomp too hard to fight. Most of the time you won't even hit him, since if I send in a Weavile, I only have one chance to kill it, and if I miss, I lose. Another example: when I used this 'BrightChomp', it beat a Skarmory one on one, because Skarmory missed 4 Whirlwinds in a row.

    So please, take this thing serious, because I know alot of people feel the same way I do about this item on Garchomp.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2011
  2. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Administrator Administrator

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    6,305
    Actually it's 0.9 * 80, meaning 72%, not 70%.

    For the weavile example, Yache berry does the job more reliably than bright powder.

    Also, this is a problem for Bright Powder on Sand Veil Garchomp only, any other mon is perfectly fine with those items/abilities.

    I can see it be banned in tournaments (including scripted ones) because of the hax argument, but I don't think it's worth banning in the ladder as there people can use what they want.
  3. BenXxX

    BenXxX Banned

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    150
    Have u ever fought a cacturne with Brightpowder and Sand Veil in UU or LU? If it's behind a sub it's even more troublesome and the fact it gets sucker punch makes it probably the most annoying pokemon ever. Max attack +2 (Swords Dance) STAB sucker punch isn't something that just any pokemon can take with ease outside of OU
  4. Ashton Michaels

    Ashton Michaels New Member

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    240
    @coyotte: If you could see it banned in tournaments because of the hax arguments, I can't see why it should be allowed in ladders.

    I don't quite understand the 'don't think it's worth banning in the ladder as there people can use what they want' comment. Most of the time the community decides what can or can not be used on the ladders, or in the case of the obvious to be banned items like Soul Dew, the staff has taken those decisions. You can use whatever hasn't been proven to be overpowered, which is why I'd like to know what other people in the PO community think about this subject.
  5. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

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    439
    I kind of support this. I've has 5-1 games in my favor turn around because of Garchomp's stupid evasion. I would hate to ban Garchomp though and rather just see Brightpowder and possibly sand veil added on to "Evasion Clause".
  6. Cilan

    Cilan New Member

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    5
    I really don't think we're going to be able to deny the inevitable. Garchomp should be banned altogether, other Dragons needs their chance to shine, and Garchomp counters are rare. Most people have to rely on checks/revenge killers, and they are further limited if Garchomp is scarfed. But that's a different rant.

    I think that banning Brightpowder is pointless, the only Pokemon that actually can abuse it and is carrying it often is Garchomp.
    If Garchomp does somehow manage to avoid being banned, then I think the use of Brightpowder should be questioned, and I like the idea of adding Brightpowder and Sand Veil into the Evasion Clause.
    But first, I think we should question Garchomp's placement in the OU environment.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  7. Ashton Michaels

    Ashton Michaels New Member

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    240
    Banning Garchomp won't happen, merely because people will point to the new dragons and Latios first. I don't want this thread to be about Garchomp being a suspect, but about if Brightpowder should be banned or not, looking at Pokemon like Garchomp abusing it. Without Brightpowder, Garchomp isn't such a big threat anymore as it is now with Brightpowder.
  8. fidgety

    fidgety New Member

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    1,539
    responses in bold
  9. Ashton Michaels

    Ashton Michaels New Member

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    Ice Punch also doesn't KO when it misses.

    My team can handle Garchomp perfectly, I have things like Mamoswine for example, but it's quite hard to beat Garchomp if my attacks keep missing.

    Anyways, this thread is to discuss the combination of Garchomp and Brightpowder, not Garchomp in general, so I'm not even going to reply to your other comments.
  10. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Administrator Administrator

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    6,305
    I'm not sure Cacturne poses the same level of threat as garchomp, even if it does, it's OU we're talking about now.

    It's not really overpowered, more like too haxy for high ladderer's tastes, and as tournaments are single elims and it doesn't bring so much to the game, it wouldn't bother me having Bright Powder Sand Veil garchomp banned in tournaments. But if you evade 2 attacks in a row it's like having a crit, if you evade 4 attacks in a row it's similar to having a double crit, it's effective mainly when you have bad luck. And it wouldn't change that much with bright powder banned, only less than one third of the attacks you miss are due to Bright Powder itself.

    Unless you think that it is truly overpowered, but in my opinion it's similar to saying crits can turn battles around. If garchomp had Scope Lens and Super Luck, he would crit 25% of the time, similar to the evasion 28% of the time, would he be banned then? I know, critting 25% of the time wouldn't let you escape faster revenge killers, but it would destroy walls better, even if it's arguably less threatening. What I mean, is that Pokémon is a game of luck among other things, but I would understand if in Single Eliminations tournaments the luck factor was reduced a bit (by removing BP garchomp), or if high players who want to reduce the luck factor don't use BP garchomp in battle amongst themselves. (Also, side note, I know you didn't say anything about that but as a safeguard for the future I don't want to see the argument of BP not being competitive popping up later, well-known players use it to achieve high scores)

    We had nice plans to introduce consistent weighted voting for the next shandera vote, as it's metagame-defining. Where I want to go is, that if the basis for the ban is the extra luck factor that you don't like rather than brokeness, we can have a vote as if the community doesn't like it and want to play without, I have no real reason to prevent that, but it won't be a weighted vote, just a poll with a question similar to "Do you want Bright Powder removed from OU, because of its use with Sand Veil Garchomp?", as there's not many metagame arguments about that. If the basis is brokeness, then a weighted vote would take place, but I'm not sure at all it's a valid basis. And, if the vote takes place on basis of added luck, ends up in a no-ban (< 50% votes), but ladderers over a certain treshold have a super majority in banning it (>66%), then maybe i'll consider making it so that battles involving one or both players over that treshold can't have a BP garchomp. But even then, that'd only be a measle satisfaction, the sand veil problem won't be erased.

    Please take the time to read my post well, in order to not get wrong ideas on what I mean, also a lot of it is plans that can be adapted (if you make good points) so I hope we can all discuss it calmly.
    Sand veil gives more evasion than bright powder, and if you ban sand veil you ban chomp too.

    Evasion clause was put there because Evasion Moves are broken (and Evasion moves only), not because of the added luck, you can't put random things in it just like that. Moreover it's not even evasion clause, it doesn't exist, it's just evasion moves being banned in the tier.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  11. Ashton Michaels

    Ashton Michaels New Member

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    240
    @coyotte: I don't think you should compare a 6.25% of a cit, to the 28 percent chance to evade a hit. Also, keep in mind that this is with 100 percent accuracy moves, so if I would use a move like Hi Jump Kick (90%) it would have an even bigger chance of missing.

    I agree that luck is a part of the game, but I don't think we should increase that luck, with items like Brightpowder. I mean, for this reason evasion moves were also banned, because it brings so much more luck to the game, which makes it broken. (You seem to imply that this isn't the case, I'd like to know though what makes them broken if it isn't the fact that it centralizes luck in battles.) Based on this same argument, increase in luck by Brightpowder, coupled with the ability Garchomp has, in combination with his stats that he can further heighthen with Swords Dance, could lead to brokeness.

    Sometimes in your post with commesnt like 'would he be banned then', you seem to be talking about Garchomp being banned, but ofcourse this is solely about Brightpowder. Same goes for his ability, I'm not talking about banning evasiveness ability, but about Brightpowder only.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  12. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Administrator Administrator

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    6,305
    When I talk about the BP problem Garchomp on the basis of brokeness, I never meant banning Garhcomp entirely. I also said that it would only be a partial fix as Sand Veil gave more evasion, but I didn't mean to ban Sandveil either.

    I used crits as an analogy to something inducing luck that we wouldn't ban (the Super Luck ability and the Scope Lens item), in order to say that we shouldn't ban all forms of luck, but we all seem to be reasonable and agree on that so it's fine.

    It was truly broken, at least in my opinion. Platinum made a BP team with evasion (looking back on it, it has BP Espeon which should be illegal), you can ask her to face it if you want in order to see for yourself. Now, maybe the meta has changed and new things that were discovered would react better to the team, though I doubt it. The thread is here, I made the judgment call singlehandedly but if you want more proof, her team was in top 5.
  13. Ashton Michaels

    Ashton Michaels New Member

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    240
    I don't doubt your decision to ban evasion moves, I'm fully aware that it's broken. You didn't quite explain why it's broken though if it isn't for the added luck. Also, I know you never meant banning Chomp entirely, I'm just stating that some parts of your post seemed to imply that ;)
  14. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Administrator Administrator

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    6,305
    Hmmm let's see it that way.

    You want to ban bright powder because you can actually remove that from garchomp without denaturing it.

    But imagine that garchomp had an ability that would give it 10% evasion normally, 28% in sand and would prevent it to use any item. And only that ability was allowed in Wifi. Would you want garchomp banned or not? If yes, you can say you think it's broken, if not, you can say that you want to remove the extra luck on something threatening like Garchomp, if possible. Whatever your answer, you could get a vote (let's see other people's opinions first), but it'd just be on a different basis.

    Now that I said that, I wouldn't mind other people giving their opinion on garchomp, just say if they think it's enough to warrant a ban on bright powder or not.
  15. Ashton Michaels

    Ashton Michaels New Member

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    240
    That's a hard question, since in that scenario there wouldn't be much else to do than to ban the Garchomp if it was deemed broken. If that would be the case, banning an entire Pokemon, it makes the situation that much harder. However, in the case with Brightpowder, there is something we can do about the increased luck, without taking away of Garchomp's effectiveness.

    Interesting scenario though :)
  16. Cilan

    Cilan New Member

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    5
    @Fidgety
    [secret]If you can tell me a Pokemon that is essentially prepeared to take on any variant of Garchomp, or even a Pokemon that can just switch into Garchomp and take 2 Outrage's, or a varient of SD + Outrage/Fire Fang, and proceed to KO it, I'd be happy.

    Some damage calcs for Garchomp Jolly 252 Atk vs. Typical defensive Pokemon

    Bronzong 252HP/252Def Relaxed - Swords Dance + Fire Fang = 54% - 64% (2HKO)
    Cresselia 252HP/252Def Bold - Swords Dance + Outrage = 56% - 66% (2HKO)
    Hippowdon 252HP/252Def Impish - Swords Dance + Outrage = 60% - 70% (2HKO)
    Nattorei 252HP/252Def Impish - Swords Dance + Fire Fang = 96% - 113% (Strong chance of an OHKO)
    Skarmory 252HP/252Def Impish - Swords Dance + Fire Fang = 48% - 57% (2HKO)
    Suicune 252HP/252Def Bold - Swords Dance + Outrage = 63% - 75% (2HKO)
    Zapdos 252HP/252Def Bold - Swords Dance + Outrage = 81% - 96% (OHKO with rocks)

    None of the Pokemon listed above can take Garchomp out in one hit either. If Yache Berry is used then the respective ice attacks from the above Pokemon can only tickle Garchomp. If you need me to post calcs for this too then I will.

    Garchomp's popularity is far higher than any other Dragon this generation. I am honestly struggling to see anything that can efficiently counter Garchomp, this is made harder seeing as you can't detect what item Garchomp is holding (Scarf/Yache/Brightpowder)
    For me, when you have to rely on checks to KO a Pokemon, that Pokemon is worthy of a ban. I feel slight de ja vu from Generation 4, when Garchomp overcentralised the metagame, only this time, it is to a lesser, but undeniable extent. Garchomp is really forcing revenge killers/checks to use Choice Scarf, and almost all of Garchomp's checks are completely walled by Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, other Steel types, etc.

    If you're relying on PO statistics for Brightpowder's usage, then I really wouldn't. The amount of idiocy I see from PO statistics and the PO ladder is indescribable.
    [/secret]
    Just to get back on topic (and also reconfirm Garchomp's brokenness), I think Substitute in combination with Brightpowder needs to be discussed.

    If you use Substitute for the first time, the chance of you hitting Garchomp (with Brightpowder and with Sand Veil in effect) is 72%
    If use Substitute again, then your chance of hitting Garchomp again is 52%
    If you use Substitute for a third time, your chances drop to 37%
    For a final Substitute, the chance of continuing to hit Garchomp is 27%
    Then after Garchomp is unable to continue Subbing, the chances of you hitting it for a fifth time is 19%

    I personally think that Garchomp by itself is ridiculous, but with Brightpowder, I think Garchomp is far past ridiculous.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2011
  17. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

    Messages:
    855
    Brightpowder does not increase the amount of luck in the game, having it allowed is the baseline. By removing it you attempt to reduce the impact of luck. Evasion moves are not banned because they are luck based, but because they were argued to be too powerful, too effective at making the user win. Luck reliant game element =/= Broken game element.
    Luck = is better in some battles than others
    Broken = is too good in too many battles

    I cannot support the banning of something simply because it increases the amount of luck management in the game. If someone can reasonably argue that Brightpowder actually causes a large number of Pokémon to be broken (defined as: gives a disproportionately large advantage when used compared to the disadvantage (i.e. not just an effective or powerful option, but absurdly good), and cannot be reasonably counteracted.), then a case for banning the item could be made. If only a small number of Pokémon are deemed too powerful, then those should go. If none are deemed too powerful, nothing needs to be changed. Adding complex bans (BP banned on just Chomp) when there are workable alternatives so they are not required or proven to be significantly better is inexcusable, and the start of a slippery slope which we must avoid. I have elaborated on this many times in PR, and will not drag this off topic.

    Pokémon is a game of many skills. Knowledge, teambuilding, prediction, and very importantly the ability to weigh up risks. The player with the overall "better" skills will not always win. This is not a bad thing, many great competitive games involve significant aspects of luck, like Poker for example. The luck does not detract from the game being enjoyable and competitively interesting, it is a part of it. It makes the game more accessible, and exciting. More of a challenge.

    Removing a game element simply because it is luck based would be fighting the nature of the game. If you don't like risk management, play another game, or better yet make a server which specifically aims to remove all sources of hax.
  18. Ashton Michaels

    Ashton Michaels New Member

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    240
    And what is it that makes those moves too powerful/ effective?

    And yes by removing Brightpowder I am trying to reduce the luck in the game, for as too much luck can make a Pokemon broken, and too much luck generally makes the game less enjoyable. Also I'm not removing a game element, since luck will always be in the game, so that's a stupid argument.
  19. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Administrator Administrator

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    6,305
    Just in order to moderate what you say, it's like sacrificing a good portion of your health (maybe a bit more than 50%?) in order to avoid a hit, it's not without drawbacks.

    Edit: @Ahston, do you think Garchomp is truly broken with Sand Veil and Bright Powder, or do you think Bright Powder makes it unnecessary unstable but not uber/broken, or can't you answer that yet? Both can lead to a vote, so don't worry about answering #2 and nothing happening, but I'd like your answer on that.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  20. Ashton Michaels

    Ashton Michaels New Member

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    240
    Another hard question, since what crosses the line of incredibly effective and broken. Looking at my own experiences versus BrightChomp, the combination Garchomp + Brightpowder is very powerful, taking into account his ability to make all 100 % moves get the accuracy of Stone Edge, great defences, attack, good speed , typing and access to Swords Dance.

    Looking at all the battles I had the past months where I was up versus a Garchomp. When Garchomp gets up the first Sub up succesfully with my attack missing, it could already be over since it gets a free SD, sometimes even retaining it's sub while my attack misses again and then sweep.

    In some of those battles, the evasiveness of Garchomp made me lose the match, missing sometimes 5 moves in a row. But at all times when I'm up versus a Garchomp I'm already getting that feeling of 'jesus, here goes another game of luck', because Garchomp is dangerous enough already without the item. You can be stronger, faster or whatever else better in than Garchomp, but it's all for nothing when your attack misses.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2011
  21. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

    Messages:
    855
    Because (if what coyo and others say is true) they give the user a high chance to win when used effectively, despite reasonable countermeasures. They are too strong, not lucky.

    By the definition I have always seen used, an item is a game element, as is a Pokémon, move, or ability. Luck management is not a "game element", it is one of the skills required to win. You do wish to remove a game element if you wish to ban an item. Please do not call my argument stupid if you do not understand the meaning of terms I use, I am more than willing to explain them. Being too reliant on luck on it's own can never make a game element broken, because when it fails, when luck is not on your side, you'll lose. If the reward is great, that's cool. But if it only happens occasionally it's not an issue, the strategy is not too effective. Only when the reward is great and the likelihood of it occurring is fairly high can the element be said to be broken.

    It was not just the fact that Garchomp avoided attacks, but also that it is a huge threat, massive attack, good speed, nice bulk, almost unresisted STABs, and good boosting moves, that made you lose to it. This is not saying that Chompy is broken, but that you cannot blame your losses solely on the evasion. You have to consider the entire Pokémon's effectiveness when deciding whether something is broken.
  22. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

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    782
    Why not ban Garchomp if it's the pokemon you think is broken? You're not arguing that Cacturne is broken with it. You're not arguing Donphan is broken with it. You're not arguing Gliscor is broken with it. They all have Sand Veil and can hold Brightpowder just as Garchomp can, and get 100% accuracy moves to turn into 72% accuracy. So why is Brightpowder broken when only Garchomp is broken with it?

    That's not mentioning, of course, the fact that it's not broken even with Brightpowder.
  23. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Administrator Administrator

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    6,305
    I already answered the evasion part, and we're already discussing about the second part.

    Also, consider a game in which each move had 60% accuracy, the luck element would be so important it's not enjoyable anymore. Sure, something may not be broken, but it's not a reason not to give the community a chance to remove something they find horrible in the game, with extreme caution though. And maybe it's broken.

    @CosmicExplorer we'll come to that question later, what should we ban, but only if there's the need to do something in the first place. Let's not mix several things and get confused.
  24. Ashton Michaels

    Ashton Michaels New Member

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    240
    Garchomp is the strongest Pokemon to use Sand Veil with Brightpowder, that's why I'm basing it around him. And eric read my entire post, and you see that I am taking Garchomp's attack, defence etc into account.
  25. M Dragon

    M Dragon Member

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    236
    Items that add hax to the game (like beight powder) should be banned under the evasion clause
  26. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

    Messages:
    855
    I stated that I could not support the removal of something simply on the grounds of luck, nothing more. There are extreme examples which would cause me to reconsider, for example if there was a move which had a 40% chance to instantly win you the game, and an 60% chance to lose it. That would make the game significantly less interesting, it would remove too much complexity. None of the real game elements in Pokémon are like this, even OHKOes are not so bad in 6v6, you're taking a big risk for a big reward, but it's not just game over. 60% acc on everything, it would change the game dramatically, yes. But what would you do about it, alter the mechanics to make it always hit? Ban low acc moves? The community should be the ones with the power, but they must understand what they are doing. Not being able to tell a probability management element from a broken one is not a good start, though it is entirely possible that Chompy is also broken.

    I did read your post, and the reason I quoted that part was to dispute the idea that it was simply the evasiveness. You earlier talked about the rest of the Poke, but moved away and missed the fact that the losses were not simply due to the miss, but also the power. Being strong enough to be banned is very different from being reliant on luck, it is important to separate these concepts.

    @M Dragon:
  27. Project Oppenheimer

    Project Oppenheimer Fire of a hundred suns

    Messages:
    1,395
    Not all hax items are that useful, like how King's rock is hardly seen because of unreliability and general ineffectiveness.
    Brightpowder is a different story. This log section should explain. (Cacturne at +2 Special Attack because of Nasty Plot)

    Start of turn 37
    The foe's Skarmory is fast asleep!
    The foe's Skarmory used Sleep Talk!
    The foe's Skarmory used Rest!
    But it failed!

    Cacturne used Focus Blast!
    The foe's Skarmory lost 83% of its health!
    The foe's Skarmory fainted!

    The sandstorm rages!
    GenFiveNoob sent out Chandelure! (Shandera)
    Pointed stones dug into the foe's Chandelure!

    Start of turn 38
    The foe's Chandelure used Flamethrower!
    The attack of the foe's Chandelure missed!

    Cacturne used Dark Pulse!
    It's super effective!
    The foe's Chandelure lost 75% of its health!
    The foe's Chandelure fainted!
    The sandstorm rages!

    Brightpowder + Sand Veil literally won me the game there, allowing me to sweep half the opponent's team with Cacturne. After that, it was clean-up time with Tyranitar. Sand Veil should probably not be banned, as it is exclusive to certain Pokemon and has limited usage, but you can slap a Brightpowder on anything and hax the game away. Brightpowder should definitely be considered for banning. As stated before.
  28. Meister

    Meister New Member

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    2
    Seriously, make a vote and let the people decide wether BrightPowder Garchomp is broken or not. IMO, it just is.. It's able to hax your opponent so hard, that it's not even funny. And especially these who carries Substitute. They pretty much rely on hax all the time, as they Sub until your opponent misses, and then they just SD up. It's not healthy for the metagame that people are almost forced to use Skarmory in every OU team they have if they want to stop a Garchomp. (Skarmory might even faint) You may think that Gliscor is another option, but unfortunately, Gliscor is 2HKO'd by +2 Dragon Claw, and Gliscor can't even do much back.
  29. Harry

    Harry Banned

    Messages:
    707
    Mm, i agree with this, to be honest. Even though I have something that can take a hit from outrage from chomp (my own chomp) unboosted, as well as 2 things that outspeed with hidden power ice, i still sometimes lose, because i can't hit it D:
  30. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

    Messages:
    782
    Hey guys! I have a completely situational log that I can extrapolate to the entirety of all uses of Brightpowder too!

    Start of Turn 42
    Chandelure used Flamethrower!
    It's super effective!
    The foe's Cacturne lost 100% of its health!
    The foe's Cacturne fainted!
    The sandstorm rages![/HIDE]
    The situation you described had a 10.1% chance of occuring, not even taking into account whether Skarmory had been able to use Whirlwind or Brave Bird as Focus Blast missed. That's just some bad hax. And what is this about King's Rock being less effective than Brightpowder? In fact, it is just as effective, as Brightpowder's boost is additive, so if your pokemon is faster (and Garchomp is faster than a lot of stuff), the opposing pokemon has a 30% chance to not hit or move, the same as Brightpowder. And without Sand Veil, King's Rock is slightly more likely to stop the opposing pokemon from moving if the user is faster.

    Substitute PowderChomp, while a viable set, absolutely relies upon hax to work; without a boosting item or resist berry, if it faces something like Starmie and is already behind a Substitute, then sure, it'll take out Starmie, but a Yache Berry allows it to do that already, and without a resist berry, it absolutely must have that hax, or it will be screwed over by Ice-types, bulky waters, and even Chandelure with Hidden Power Ice. It also doesn't have a Life Orb boost, meaning that it's again forced to rely upon hax to reliably get past phazers like Skarmory or Hippowdon. See a trend here? PowderChomp is forced to rely upon that 30% chance that the opponent's attack will miss to succeed. That doesn't sound very reliable to me.

    "Almost forced to use Skarmory in every OU team" is in no way the situation here. Skarmory is #30 in the usage statistics, so that's obviously not true. And Gliscor is actually not 2HKOed by a +2 Dragon Claw unless Garchomp is holding a Life Orb. Oh wait...

    Brightpowder Garchomp relies purely upon hax to succeed, and without access to another hold item, it loses out a lot of its ability for a small increase in evasion. Sure, it's annoying, just like FEARon or Whimsicott, and because of that, there's naturally going to be some who support its ban, but it is in no way overpowered and should not be removed from the metagame.
  31. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    1,391
    I'm opposed to complex bans, such as "ban this item", "ban this ability", or "ban these ability combinations" because it's just an inevitable domino effect waiting to happen.

    Luck has always been an integral part of Pokemon. I understand that we'd all like to minimize the aspect of that as much as possible in a competitive environment but there are things we're just going to have to live with.

    Brightpowder + Sand Veil abuse is one of them, among many others.
  32. yiran

    yiran The wind dies.

    Messages:
    1,698
    What Zeroality said.

    Also, brightpowder is annoying, but we don't ban things on the basis of being annoying.

    If that was the case, Parasect would be banned, and Spinda would be OU.
  33. EonFriend

    EonFriend New Member

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    187
    The banning requests seem to be going "ban the pokémon" or "ban the item", and the former is generally the vastly common occurrence. In the history of competitive battling, Soul Dew in gen 4 was the only item to be banned on a tier since even an inexperienced player would have a rough idea of how overpowered it was (considering that Latias herself was banned in gen 4 at the end, we can mostly take it that no item has been banned ever). Damp rock was getting complaints in the UU gen 4 tier a bit, but it wasn't banned and that is quite off-topic.

    What I mean to say is that since literally no item has been banned from competitive play, we must mostly focus our attention at analyzing specific Pokémon to see whether the effect of such an item is overpowered or not. As has been stated in the above posts, evasion moves like Double team were banned since they were very easy to win with. Brightpowder apparently seems to have this crushing effect only on a Garchomp (don't take Cacturne that seriously for now, he hardly ever sweeps good teams).

    My suggestion would be to put up a vote and see what the players think of it first, and then, if the ratio of votes is tending towards the direction of banning, take it into account a little deeply for suspect testing. I suppose that's when we can arrive at a proper conclusion.
  34. Team Forretress

    Team Forretress New Member

    Messages:
    57
    I personally don't run a Brightpowder Chomp, nor have I had issues with them (as far as I know).
    I can't stand Chomp, but I don't feel as if Sand Veil's unstoppable (in Wi-Fi, at least, I don't ladder in DW). Once you KO the Sand Streamer, simply bring in your own weather, be it Politoed, Ninetales, Abomasnow (lol), or a simple Sunny Day/Rain Dance/Hail.
    Personally, I carry a Ninetales around to counter all weather; she counters Sand Veil Chomp as well as any other, once the weather inducer is gone.
    Before you make an argument "HURR DURR WELL HE'S UNCOUNTERABLE IF YOU HAVE TO BRING IN YOUR OWN WEATHER", that's an argument to declare weather teams uber, not Brightpowder.

    tl;dr:
    Chomp ain't broken if you know how to counter it.
  35. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

    Messages:
    782
    EonFriend, that's precisely the point of this thread, although without the actual vote. It's meant to gauge public opinion on Garchomp and whether it's overpowered or not, as coyo posted before. The arguments for Garchomp being overpowered are centered around its abuse of Sand Veil and Brightpowder, which is why Brightpowder was brought up at all.
  36. Noog

    Noog So much potential...

    Messages:
    350
    Really, this is similar to the Inconsistent (now known as Moody) problem. One turn of good fortune can change the situation. Two turns of good fortune can change the outcome of the game. Three turns of good fortune... Yeah, might as well say "GG".

    If you haven't realized yet, I'm agreeing with the banning of not only Brightpowder, but all hax items that can be used by any Pokémon. This includes King's Rock and Focus Band, but does not include Stick and Lucky Punch.

    @cosmicexplorer: Actually, based on the title of the thread, I think the thread was supposed to be for Brightpowder, not Garchomp. It's just the combination of Sand Veil and Brightpowder that triggered all this discussion, I believe.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2011
  37. mibuchiha

    mibuchiha I know I don't. Even so.

    Messages:
    842
    I'm against banning because by choosing powder (I do ;p) chomp is basically itemless. In sand it's already 80% anyway, another 8% is not OP. x_x

    It's a different story if powder gives like, 30%. :p
  38. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

    Messages:
    782
    Correct, but according to coyo's post here, the course of action is first to determine whether there is a problem that should be dealt with, and then the discussion over what exactly should be banned can commence.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2011
  39. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

    Messages:
    1,761
    Hm, the accuracy nerfs stack like that? :P
    Didn't know that.
    In any case, I really don't think it's worth banning. Seriously, on anything but Garchomp it's pretty much useless. 8% chance of evasion? Whoopee. It's not even a 10% chance, what the heck. Speaking in terms of probability it's going to work less than 1 out of every 10 attacks directed at you.
    If anything, it's Sand Veil that's the bigger problem, though I'm not in favor of banning that either. 1/5 vs. 2/25.
  40. Noog

    Noog So much potential...

    Messages:
    350
    Actually, Brightpowder gives you a 10% chance of evading a move. Percentages stack by taking the decimal form of the percentages, subtracting them from 1, and multiplying the differences together. Sand Veil gives you a 20% chance (which means a 100 Accuracy move will hit 80% of the time) and Brightpowder 10% (100 Acc = 90%). After subtracting, you get .8 and .9. Multiply them together to get .72, so a 100 acc move will pretty much get nerfed down to 72 acc.

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