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[RBY] OHKOs in RBY

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by coyotte508, Jul 16, 2012.

Moderators: Isa
  1. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Administrator Administrator

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    6,305
    RBY is so stallish!!

    It happened several times where I had the win, but still i had to PP waste the opponent's pokemon, and I rather forfeit than do it if he doesn't forfeit.

    OHKOs provide a perfect solution to that (and substitute blocks it, as well as having a faster mon). It would make the metagame more dynamic!

    Why not allow OHKOs in RBY?
  2. Nainil

    Nainil The International of PO

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    108
    Argument 1: You'd be doing the same thing assuming every time you tried to OHKO you'd miss.

    Argument 2: RBY competitive battling sucks

    !

    EDIT-
    (02:12:19) Blitzamirin: In real RBY, sub isn't used, coyo
  3. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l New Member

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    yeah and since i'm really getting bored with all of this fwg in dpp ou why don't we unban salamence while we're at it? (unbanning ohkos in rby is a MUCH worse idea than the salamence suspect test just fyi)
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  4. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Tier Leader

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    557
    Care to elaborate instead of just posting something as fact?
  5. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    277
    Check some of the more recent posts in the Wrap thread, there's a discussion on the issue of OHKOs after an analogy between OHKO and Wrap is made.
  6. Chispy

    Chispy Member

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    106
    Just program the server to check if there's a clear winner every turn (no possibility for one or the other to win) and have it automatically declare winner. If it comes down to Struggle, just have it wipe your PP and skip to that turn.
  7. Xclus|Mewmewzapdos

    Xclus|Mewmewzapdos Retreated to Showdown ^^

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    I agree, ohko moves will really make the metagame much better and less stalling(No Chansey! And magikarps!) but this will make it a very luck-based tier(well, it is already is), this will still make the battles go faster and sub isn't used as much compared to stadium cuz it only blocks toxic now. I still agree that we should unban ohko moves, they are not op anyway.
  8. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd No one listens to pnerd.

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    2,311
    Just saying, if some of you don't give good argumentation here, in this thread, OHKOs probably will be unbanned. So might not want to be lazy if you're opposed to the idea.
  9. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l New Member

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    okay well here are a few reasons that ohkos should not be unbanned:

    1) rby is an old metagame and there is no reason to change it when it has been fine in its current state for over a decade. i am kind of getting sick of making this argument but for some reason the auth here can't resist trying to ruin pokemon. it's especially silly here because rby is the OLDEST metagame and ohkos have been banned (for good reason mind you) for an incredibly long time.

    2) the only thing that uses substitute is rhydon which will probably be using horn drill over it, and sometimes golem uses it, so that's a null point. substitute is mostly a bad move in true rby.

    3) ohkos will not fix stall, or will have a minimal effect on it. most of the ohkoers are pokemon that chansey and zam do not switch into/might beat even with ohkos allowed/will lose to even without ohkos allowed like rhydon if chansey is paralyzed (which it needs to be to ohko either of them anyway)/are frail pokemon that will not very often last until the endgame like rapidash and dugtrio. in addition to not having much of an effect on pp stall battles, they will probably have a much greater impact towards the beginning of the game, with people leading with things like dugtrio and getting free kills 30% of the time right off the bat. basically what i'm saying is, when you're in the midst of a stall war between your zam and your chansey, you can't reliably switch to a ohko user and "end it" any better than you can reliably switch to something like rhydon or snorlax. you're not fixing a problem, you're just creating a NEW problem without much of a reason.

    4) have you noticed that rby teams tend to employ 1-3 and sometimes 4 exploders on pretty much EVERY team? yet somehow there are still pp stall battles. pp stall battles can occur in every metagame, but they are perhaps SLIGHTLY more common in rby than in dp or bw (definitely not more common than gsc, and it's debatable as to whether they're more common in rse), but that is REGARDLESS of how straightforward and explosion-prone the metagame is. exploding is a more reliable and fair way of removing things like zam and chansey than ohko moves, yet a lot of the time you end up in a stall scenario anyway. just consider that for a bit.

    5) while you may not like it, pp stall is a normalized part of rby. that's just the way the metagame is and that's the way it always has been. that doesn't mean it needs to be "fixed." that just means you should play something else if you don't like it. or you can go the other route you mentioned and forfeit because it doesn't seem like you want to win that badly if you'd rather forfeit than pp stall. also whether or not you end up in those pp stall wars depends a lot on your team. contrary to popular belief, you really don't HAVE to use multiples of chansey/zam/starmie. you don't really have to use chansey at all in fact.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  10. Xinc

    Xinc Hideyoshi the Falcon

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    1,556
    My answers in Italics:

    Wrong again. It may be old, but to make the metagame more flexible and fun, there is a responsibility to fix it.

    I'm FOR OHKOs.
  11. Teh Umby

    Teh Umby New Member

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    You mention "fixing" something, but there's no reason to fix what ain't broke. You're simply attempting to add more chance elements into a game that is ridden with a ton of chance elements that already heavily influence the game. Who cares about "dynamic" when you have a relatively set metagame that has done fine for itself the entire time (and, as you've said, has things being discovered every day WITHOUT any change in standard rules) and has presented very little in legitimate reasoning to making any changes? You think this kind of change will make the game more "fun?" Fun for who? Fun is subjective. If you dislike an established metagame for whatever reason, that's probably a hint that you don't need to be playing it in the first place.
  12. poes

    poes New Member

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    5
    The point shrapn3l wants to make is that the topic creator's logic is flawed: allowing OHKOs is NOT a way to end late game stalemates. Legal OHKOs, however, will be used for purposes such as leading with Dugtrio and killing (almost) --anything-- right off the bat or giving Tauros an option to destroy in one move the few mons that can take more than two hits from it in the first place.

    OHKO moves will not make the game less "stally". RBY is not stally anyway, I will argue that coyotte's evaluation is wrong. They will alienate RBY and make it a stupid game that nobody wants to play.
  13. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l New Member

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    107
    edit: nvm

    also i'd just like to take this time to consider the sheer relevance of the statement "I've seen other pokemon use subs."
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  14. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    277
    I think Sub is standard on Farfetch'd...

    Anyway, yeah. To reiterate shrap's point, the reason things turn into stall wars isn't because there's no offense to go around, but because you can't just switch in your offense willy-nilly against an active Chansey or Alakazam and risk getting Twaved/Psychic'd/whatever'd on the switch. This is even more true for OHKOers who certainly are all far less resilient than already-existing things like Snorlax or Tauros and which pump out far less reliable "offense" (dice rolls, really). So really, by allowing OHKOs, you do nothing to address what you perceive as far too much PP-stalling (since it can't be ended by OHKO moves), but you do add a shit-ton of BS potential in kill-off-the-bat LeadTrio and other crap like Rhydon hail-mary kills on para'd Eggs and Lapras hail-mary kills on Chanseys. Well, okay, I guess OHKO would prevent some PP stalls by just turning those matches into instant BS before a PP stall even has a chance to possibly materialize, but is that really any better? (No, no it isn't. It's far worse.)
  15. Xinc

    Xinc Hideyoshi the Falcon

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    1,556
    Alright, fine. I'll agree the word Fun is subjective. But metagames still change. We've seen DP and Adv have some variety in the metagame. I personally have played in the RBY for quite a while, but here's some food for thought: OHKOs were just banned universally, through every tier. Have those who banned thought about the differences in each metagame? We don't have Lock-on in Gen I, so there is no way OHKO can 100% hit.

    Rather I think that we should lift the ban for a short period of time as a test ban.

    That was used to refer to your rhydon. Ex. Fissure Dugtrio, Guillotine Kingler.
  16. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    88
    PP stalls take more skill than ohkos anyway. They reward people who were more careful during the battle.
    Piexplode likes this.
  17. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l New Member

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    but ohkos were already "tested" years ago and nothing has changed since then that should affect their legality. stop talking about alleged rby changes and prove something, and more importantly, prove that these "changes" mean we should test ohkos. prove that it's not a waste of time when it's already BEEN decided that they're broken. if you want to unban something that the pokemon community has already decided to ban, the burden is actually you to understand why they were banned in the first place (this doesn't seem to be the case), assess that information, and subsequently prove that something is different now or a mistake was made and they should be unbanned. this is a waste of time because you're making an old argument to unban when all of these factors have already been considered in its initial banning. it should only be unbanned if you have a new argument, and if that argument is deemed sound. so go ahead. tell me something new. tell me about some of these changes. tell me something i don't know.

    also i think you may be missing that before they were banned on PO they were already banned on netbattle for years. it wasn't just "recently" decided to ban them, the recent ban was rectifying the fact that they weren't banned to begin with when we moved to PO from netbattle.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
  18. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

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    855
    If PP stalling is the main reason you're bringing this up coyo, can't you or someone else use the cool new battle userscripts to cook up an automatic PP Staller activated by a command, then do something else while it stalls for you?
  19. poes

    poes New Member

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    That is silly, late game stalemates must be played out, since usually the player with more luck/skill (at that point, both legitimate ways to decide the winner) wins it that way.
  20. lotuspirate

    lotuspirate New Member

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    I'm not going to lie, I have no idea what an OHKOs-allowed metagame would be like. I just want to say that PP stalling is a legitimate part of the game and doesn't happen often enough to be considered a problem or obstacle to having fun in my experience. The only really boring stall is when only (paralysed) Alakazams and Chanseys are left. I would recommend not letting that happen in the first place unless you are certain you will win the PP stall, in which case who cares if you have to keep clicking for a while -- it's not like you have to pay much attention. Unless your opponent is being annoying about it and taking 30 seconds every turn I doubt it's anything worth complaining about.
  21. Tiba

    Tiba The new Pokemon Professor

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    78
    rolf, sorry but I need to quote it

    In all my life I listen new dudes in my ear "GSC is so stall, trololo,gscstall,trololo,stall,trololo,stall,gsc" now I have to hear that RBY is stall? as I'm tired of hearing this. How the objective of this topic isn’t give some lessons of what is Stall let’s go to arguments

    Sorry coyotte, but your arguments are not viable because you are with a misconception about RBY. Everything that you described it's Stadium metagame, where substitute is a little overpowering because it block status. Stadium’s substitute forces you to do the only safe strategy which is waste all PPs of your opponent. Ik it’s too boring. In this topic http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?13498-Do-you-want-to-keep-Stadium&p=167124#post167124 was a lot of discussion about PP waste and “stall” on Stadium, you can try to see that the situation which you are talking about its Stadium in this thread.

    But this isn't RBY. On Red and Blue the things are somewhat different. Substitute can’t block status then in PP waste situations you can paralyze or freeze your opponent. Most attempts of PP “stall” finish on a full paralyzed or a freeze. Why I’ll go waste the pps with my Chansey if a can use my Ice Beam to freeze? And there are also Tauros and others pokemon that can break all. The CH mechanics are different too and your CH rate is greater than the other metagames (in most off cases) which serves also for his attempt to wast PP fail.

    One of the funniest situations of RBY is when you try wasting Reflectzam’s PP and you receive a lot of Critical Hits and Special drops.

    For end this, waste PP is yes a possible strategy like in all another Pokemon metagame. But it isn’t the unique safe option to do (different of Stadium) and can fail because of things cited above (or can be successful strategy like in another metagames). But rby’s hax is so great then how you said that the most of game reduced to a PP waste? Try to waste more.

    And I agree with most of the above arguments of other users. RBY is playing for decades (continues nowadays) and is test a lot. No need to change anything (wrap is a delicate situation, I think this will never arrive at a consensus) and put OHKO in the competitive play. RBY is not Stadium and no have a lot of Substitutes, in most of cases Substitute are filler movement (e.g in Rhydon case).
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
  22. Xinc

    Xinc Hideyoshi the Falcon

    Messages:
    1,556
    I'll agree with you that RBY isn't stally. HOWEVER, I still firmly believe we should give a test unban for OHKO moves. Here's a proposition: If it truly hinders the metagame, then it'll be rebanned. If not... well, it won't be banned. 1 month with good, unbiased RBY/Stadium players testing seems reasonable... I hope. :P
  23. poes

    poes New Member

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    5
    I think Mewtwo could possibly help break stalls. How about we test it for a month? If it's TRULY overpowered, it will be re-banned.
  24. Xinc

    Xinc Hideyoshi the Falcon

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    Your sarcasm has been duly noted.
  25. minnow

    minnow New Member

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    While I dislike both, I don't get how people can be pro-wrap and anti-OHKO moves. Wrap moves are far more game breaking and thankfully you don't them everywhere because they're mindless and boring... OHKO are most efficient early in the game when everything is at full health, but are really only effective late game when you're in a pickle and need to take that gamble. There's going to be the odd person playing Duggy/Rapidash early, but that's basically just admitting that you're going to be behind later in the game and hoping to catch your breaks now. If you want to use a slot up on that then go ahead...

    Wrap moves on the other hand are much more versatile (and are used by better pokes) offering a similar chance to make a miracle comeback if you're behind, being great at sweeping if you're ahead, and giving free switches through the game. A fresh Dragonite and Dugtrio are taking down fresh Tauros the same % of time so I don't see how one is part of the game and one is BS luck. If Tauros is paralyzed or has a bit of damage, Dragonite becomes the better option.

    I'd rather just ban both types (or atleast agility+wrap), but if OHKO moves are allowed you'll see Eggy taking a horn drill from a Rhydon once in a blue moon and Lapras running horn drill sometimes and using it vs a Chansey/Slowbro and maybe Snorlax. All of those pokes get wrap abused just as easily anyway and I'd much rather find out my luck during the first turn or two than play the "count to 32" game for the next 5 minutes... Even if OHKO's are being used, Dragonite isn't going to be ditching his wrap set for horn drill anytime soon.
  26. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l New Member

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    107
    hey why don't you look in the wrap thread where i have already shat on the ohko moves vs wrap moves argument since this has no relevance here (please read the rest of the thread before posting ^_^).

    also are you even thinking about what you're saying? if tauros has some damage or is paralyzed wrap dragonite beats it better than dugtrio? what the hell does that even prove?

    if you are in a position where you can make a "comeback" sweep with a wrapper then you are not truly "behind" because you have put yourself in a position where you can win (regardless of what the score may tell you). you can "miraculously" win from behind with tauros, too, but that doesn't mean shit, and tauros comebacks are much more often due to lucky crits, paraslams, or freezes, whereas coming back with wrap can only mean you put your opponent in a position where wrap can beat them. it's less reliable and yet is not any more luck based than a standard sweeper like tauros. it's not like wrappers are these godly pokemon that can come in and take over the game whenever they want. the only REMOTELY good ones are victreebel, cloyster, and dragonite, and of those three the only one that is close to "gamebreaking" is dragonite, and it STILL has a hard time setting up and sweeping unless you have no idea what you're doing against it or have a terrible team that is completely defenseless against it for some reason (most likely because you are pretending it doesn't exist because it "should be banned" or something). wrap can win you the game if you put yourself into a position where it can win you the game, but with something like dugtrio, you are in a position where it can potentially "win you the game" from turn one because it can get a lucky free kill on something like exeggutor right off the bat. also, what are you going to do when tauros horn drills your lapras or rhydon or some shit and one of your switch-ins for it is immediately gone because you were simply unlucky? if wrap kills one of your pokemon, it isn't because you got unlucky, it is because you didn't play around it properly, or your opponent PUT YOU INTO A SITUATION where you couldn't avoid losing a pokemon to wrap. how are you going to play around horn drill tauros or fissure dugtrio at any point in the game exactly?

    "There's going to be the odd person playing Duggy/Rapidash early, but that's basically just admitting that you're going to be behind later in the game and hoping to catch your breaks now. If you want to use a slot up on that then go ahead... "

    ah yes i forgot that pokemon was a game of such high integrity. if anyone were to "stoop so low" as to use OHKO moves, and they are using dugtrio or (much less likely) rapidash, they are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE TIME going to be leading with them and trying to get free kills as soon as possible. why wouldn't they?

    while i'm sure you're going to be very angry about being wrong and you'll want to continue arguing about how godly wrap is, this is not the thread to do it in, and as for anyone else that wants to use the "wrap is better than ohkos so ohkos should be unbanned" argument, don't try it.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
  27. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

    Messages:
    855
    Make sure you know what I'm talking about before dismissing it :p. An automatic PP stalling script would just make your moves for you when there's no choices left (and recover at appropriate times), not actually change the mechanics at all. Simply a timesaver.

    ps: people, chill out. having strong opinions is no excuse for making things personal.
  28. Xinc

    Xinc Hideyoshi the Falcon

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    1,556
    Why aren't there more people as relaxed as you!? lol. I'll concur with what you just said.
  29. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak I shall grind beneath my heel all that exists! Administrator

    Messages:
    2,628
    PO Trainer Name:
    Professor Oak
    This just seems as if people just lack the patience to complete a battle, and thus want a way to quickly fix it.

    There is - have the patience to complete a battle.

    There is a reason OHKO moves have been globally banned in singles battles - they are unreliable, but that 30% chance of an instant KO can mean the difference between winning every match comfortably or having to actually fight for the match.

    The only difference RBY has is that a Pokemon has to be faster for the OHKO move to work. Thunder Wave changes that. Basically, you'd have to be faster than Tauros and not paralysed to ensure that you weren't going to be OHKO'd 30% of the time. Even then, those faster than Tauros (with the possible exceptions of Aerodactyl and Starmie) are easily OHKO'd by one of Tauros' other moves.

    Also, Sub isn't used in True RBY, because it is relatively poor.
  30. Chispy

    Chispy Member

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    106
    That's what I said in, what, the 3rd reply in this thread?
  31. poes

    poes New Member

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    5
    having "no choices left" but at the same time needing to decide what is "the appropriate time" to recover sounds like an oxymoron to me.

    if you're at the point where both players not recovering, not paralyzed, and just click Reflect over and over, I have the solution--- It's called forfeit...

    don't call me arrogant but I just seem to be debating with people who have never played the game at a competitive level
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
  32. Isa

    Isa <(•θ•)> Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    765
    PO Trainer Name:
    Isa
    I am incredibly disappointed in Coyotte and the other ones who argue for this. It seems to me that they do not understand the metagame and wants to change it to be what they want it to look like.

    (if nothing else - note how everyone who argues against this are people who bothered to play the metagame on NBS, who actually know the metagame!)

    OHKO's are no-skill moves. Dugtrio beats every Pokémon slower than him 30% of the time, and there is NOTHING you can do about it if your team does not carry a Flying type, of which there is only one truly viable (Zapdos), and he has two hard counters in the regular RBY metagame.
    Three Pokémon are faster, and out of those, two are Electric types without coverage moves that are 2HKO'd by his Earthquake and the other one (Aerodactyl) isn't used even in the NU tier. People complain about para-hax when they get three straight FP's - imagine being hit by three straight Fissures from Dugtrio. That has a HIGHER chance of happening.

    Substitute being a "viable" counter is incorrect as there's only one, arguably two, Pokémon that'd put Substitute on their moveset. The first one is Rhydon, due to a lack of better move (and if OHKO's became unbanned, he'd run Horn Drill), and the second one is the very rare case of Substitute Golem (who usually drops Rock Slide). MAYBE Zapdos, but in most cases you're wasting 25%. No other Pokémon seen in the OU tier should even consider running Substitute as it doesn't block status, and running it to "counter" a Dugtrio OHKO move...no, that is not legit. Everyone else has better moves to use, as many Pokémon either suffer from the four-moves-syndrome (Starmie, Lapras, Exeggutor) or have exactly four moves that they need to use, but those are all very important (Tauros) or simply better than Substitute (Gengar).

    People argue that RBY is filled with luck already, so the addition of another luck-based move should not matter. That is wrong. RBY has a bigger element of luck than other metagames, that is true - but you're not flipping a coin to see who wins. If you play a Best of 5, the better player will come out on top in 99% of the cases. Adding OHKO's decrease that number significantly. Those who argue that lead Dugtrio would be an unviable choice, tell me what to counter it with. Alakazam ties it in speed and 2HKO's it - but so does Dugtrio. Leading with Aerodactyl who's faster and a Flying type? Well, you didn't lose a Pokémon to an OHKO...but Dugtrio learns Rock Slide to hit Aerodactyl with, which is a 3HKO (2HKO with a CH) and Aero has an absurdly poor move pool (that's also hard-walled by Golem/Rhydon, mind you) that makes him reside in the NU tier. Leading with Jolteon or Electrode? Okay...you just led a physically very weak Electric with no other Special moves and a very low Attack stat against a Ground-type Pokémon that 2HKO's you easily. The only alternatives remaining are slower Flyings. The best option is Zapdos, who's only 4HKO'd by Rock Slide - but he's hard-walled by Rhydon/Golem, only 3HKO's back, so he loses the matchup and is mostly a poor lead otherwise. Articuno is 2HKO'd by Rock Slide, OHKO'd by a critical hit and doesn't threaten status versus the other leads in the metagame (Alakazam, Gengar, Jynx), only scaring out the Exeggutor lead...and he's also walled by Starmie, Chansey, Lapras, Slowbro etc.
    Everything else? I beat your first Pokémon 30% of the time, which may give me very undeserved wins, even if my opponent had twice of my skill. Repeat that 30% for every turn.

    I agree that this would alienate the player base who has waited for two years and three months (the first promised release date) for this to happen. As far as I can tell, the player with the most experience in RBY who was consulted beforehand was Xinc or Pokemonnerd, and I'll be damned if they have more than two months of experience of RBY OU. None of the older players were consulted in this, but now, we're hearing that "this is likely to happen".

    If you want to remove stall from all metagames, start off with GSC or at least Stadium OU, but let's not destroy tiers just because you've played a few games for the past week and said that "oh, this is boring me, I don't want to play for more than 60 turns". RBY is ABSOLUTELY not the stalliest metagame.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
    Piexplode likes this.
  33. gorgie

    gorgie Member

    Messages:
    15
    There is no argument and OHKO moves will not be unbanned guys.

    Everyone calm the F down.

    edit: Also I'm not really a junior member there is a bug in the forums.
  34. Isa

    Isa <(•θ•)> Forum Moderator

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    765
    PO Trainer Name:
    Isa
  35. waterwizard

    waterwizard New Member

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    25
    OHKO's are banned in standard play. This is immutable. Thus sayeth me.
  36. Xinc

    Xinc Hideyoshi the Falcon

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    1,556
    Sounds legit.

    I was just arguing for the sake of flexibility's sake.
  37. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

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    261
    Adding OHKO moves will only make luck even more important, whats the point for that?

    I have played RBY for more than 5 years, and most of the times I havent had to PP stall xD, and I fail to see how is that a reason to add more luck.
  38. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Member

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    167
    nah, rby is just too slow for a move with a 30% chance to instant-ko the opponent. OHKOs might be unbannable on DP/BW but in rby most things take at least 3-4 hits to die. ANd I don't think they'd make the game less stally. Most things that have an OHKO move die in two turns so generally won't last unless they OHKO everything first, and these mons will probably be used over other offensive mons with more staying power, so allowing OHKOs probably even makes more likely that the battle ends on a stall war...

    Either way, having a disable delay button like in NB could be a good idea.
  39. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

    Messages:
    855
    No, you didn't. Programming the server to calculate winners it is totally different from making a userscript to make your PP stalling moves for you.

    Forfeiting won games due to the time taken to stall is precisely the the problem coyo had, and others have too. When to recover is technically a decision, but it's one which you can run the numbers for and have a script decide accurately without absurd complexity (though it's not super simple).
  40. Isa

    Isa <(•θ•)> Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    765
    PO Trainer Name:
    Isa
    Does the Coyo silence mean he won't change anything, or...?

    I'd like to know what's going on. Rumor has it that Coyo has made changes despite the public disagreeing on them, so I am legitimately worried.
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