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The NU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'NU' started by Versace Python Cased, Sep 14, 2013.

  1. Versace Python Cased

    Versace Python Cased Tip Toe Wing In My Jawwdinz Tier Leader

    Messages:
    882
    PO Trainer Name:
    -
    PO has begun to do Viability Rankings for every tier! Here are the opinions of a few NU players and intelligent players. Is there a place that's 100% right for a Pokemon? Nope! This is obviously an opinion, so don't flame anybody for their opinion. "Hey this is a rip-off of Smogon!" Yeah, it is. But it's a good idea so shut the fuck up.

    Please comment and say what should go up/down!

    MAKE SURE YOU BACK UP YOUR SUGGESTION(S) WITH SOLID EVIDENCE. IF NOT YOU POST AT THE RISK OF BEING INFRACTED.

    S Rank: S Rank is reserved for Pokemon who are extremely threatening and impact the metagame in a major way. These Pokemon can either fulfill a variety of roles or are superlative in performing one task on a team.

    S Rank:
    [​IMG] Sawk
    [​IMG] Houndoom
    [​IMG] Musharna
    [​IMG] Samurott
    [​IMG] Mesprit[/HIDE]

    A Rank: A Rank Pokemon generally perform very well in the tier, but have some minor flaws that prevent them from fulfilling their roles consistantly. Although threatening, they usually require a bit more team support than S-Rank Mons

    High A Rank:
    [​IMG] Skuntank
    [​IMG] Misdreavus
    [​IMG] Primeape
    [​IMG] Klinklang
    [​IMG] Ludicolo
    [​IMG] Piloswine
    [​IMG] Mandibuzz
    [​IMG] Gurdurr
    [​IMG] Gardevoir[/HIDE]

    Mid A Rank:
    [​IMG]Alomomola
    [​IMG] Rotom-S
    [​IMG] Charizard
    [​IMG] Seismitoad
    [​IMG] Sawsbuck
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan
    [​IMG] Lickilicky
    [​IMG] Tangela
    [​IMG] Drapion
    [/HIDE]

    Low A Rank:
    [​IMG] Zangoose
    [​IMG] Zweilous
    [​IMG] Rhydon
    [​IMG] Garbodor
    [​IMG] Exeggutor
    [​IMG] Roselia
    [​IMG] Tauros
    [​IMG] Drifblim
    [​IMG] Emboar
    [​IMG] Articuno
    [​IMG] Fraxure
    [​IMG] Serperior[/HIDE]

    B Rank: B Rank Pokemon usually have some sort of major flaw that prevents them from being a more common presence in the tier. However, they still are able to perform their roles very well with proper team support.

    High B Rank:
    [​IMG] Gastrodon
    [​IMG] Swellow
    [​IMG] Bouffalant
    [​IMG] Stunfisk
    [​IMG] Swanna
    [​IMG] Rotom-F
    [​IMG] Carracosta
    [​IMG] Simipour[/HIDE]

    Mid B Rank:
    [​IMG] Simisear
    [​IMG] Eelektross
    [​IMG] Torterra
    [​IMG] Vileplume
    [​IMG] Kadabra
    [​IMG] Abomasnow
    [​IMG] Wartortle
    [​IMG] Gorebyss
    [​IMG] Mantine
    [​IMG] Floatzel
    [​IMG] Crawdaunt
    [​IMG] Quagsire
    [​IMG] Muk
    [​IMG] Cacturne
    [​IMG] Electabuzz
    [​IMG] Combusken
    [​IMG] Metang
    [​IMG] Dodrio
    [​IMG] Camerupt
    [​IMG] Munchlax[/HIDE]

    Low B Rank:
    [​IMG] Regirock
    [​IMG] Golem
    [​IMG] Electivire
    [​IMG] Torkoal
    [​IMG] Weezing
    [​IMG] Glaceon
    [​IMG] Relicanth
    [​IMG] Whimsicott
    [​IMG] Pinsir
    [​IMG] Lapras
    [​IMG] Regice
    [​IMG] Raichu
    [​IMG] Archeops
    [​IMG] Electrode
    [​IMG] Zebstrika
    [​IMG] Golbat[/HIDE]

    C Rank: C Rank Pokemon have notable niches in the metagame, but usually require significant support. These Pokemon face competition for their roles from the higher ranked Pokemon, but can find still find use.

    High C Rank:
    [​IMG] Marowak
    [​IMG] Ursaring
    [​IMG] Basculin
    [​IMG] Gabite
    [​IMG] Frillish
    [​IMG] Pelipper
    [​IMG] Rampardos
    [​IMG] Duosion
    [​IMG] Ditto
    [​IMG] Tentacool
    [​IMG] Hariyama
    [​IMG] Butterfree
    [​IMG] Jumpluff
    [​IMG] Audino
    [​IMG] Riolu[/HIDE]

    Mid C Rank:
    [​IMG] Ampharos
    [​IMG] Altaria
    [​IMG] Volbeat
    [​IMG] Shiftry
    [​IMG] Kingler
    [​IMG] Dwebble
    [​IMG] Cradily
    [​IMG] Beheyeem
    [​IMG] Octillery
    [​IMG] Meganium
    [​IMG] Mightyena
    [​IMG] Shelgon
    [​IMG] Murkrow
    [​IMG] Rapidash
    [​IMG] Natu
    [​IMG]Leafeon
    [​IMG] Probopass
    [​IMG] Golduck
    [​IMG] Lairon
    [​IMG] Swoobat
    [​IMG] Floatzel
    [​IMG] Arbok
    [​IMG] Luxray
    [​IMG] Throh[/HIDE]

    Low C Rank:
    [​IMG] Victreebel
    [​IMG] Flareon
    [​IMG] Slaking
    [​IMG]Pikachu
    [​IMG] Shedinja
    [​IMG] Regigigas
    [​IMG] Ninjask
    [​IMG] Linoone
    [​IMG] Bastiodon
    [​IMG] Mawile
    [​IMG] Dragonair[/HIDE]

    D Rank: D Rank Pokemon either have an extremely small niche in the tier, or are generally outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon in a majority of circumstances.

    emaD Rank:
    [​IMG] Pineco
    [​IMG] Persian
    [​IMG] Gigalith
    [​IMG] Hypno[/HIDE]

    Untested:
    [​IMG] Ferroseed
    [​IMG] Absol
    [​IMG] Claydol
    [​IMG] Miltank
    [​IMG] Dusknoir[/HIDE]

    Thanks to Finchinator, Afro Smash, Celestial Phantom, Avatar Roku, Aurist, Angel Floone (not really), bugzinator, Windblown, and of course your fearless, handsome, death-defying Tier Leader ßasedVictory for helping get this done. This was a fun 5 hours.

    Things to keep in mind when thinking what should be moved up/down.

    Have fun! (I'm sure I missed some Pokemon too, so when you comment your opinions on what should be moved up/down, maybe mention some Pokemon that I left out and where they should be placed, and why!)

    Kacaw
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2013
  2. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw Samph rejects me Tier Leader

    Messages:
    1,110
    PO Trainer Name:
    Afro Smash
    WOW I LEAVE A BIT EARLY AND YOU PUT PRIMEAPE IN THE S RANK, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

    That mon is so weak as a scarfer, and outclassed as a Band user by Sawk, as it has a worse ability, atk stat and defenses, i honestly think it's worth a B rank, B+ at most. It's speed still only means it ties with shit like Sawsbuck and houndoom, so isn't even that great. Vital Spirit is useless because it can't do shit to Tanngela or Vileplume anyways, and Defiant is ait but there are like 0 intimidaters in NU.

    I'll add in other opinions later
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  3. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

    Messages:
    186
    -Drop Primeape to A at best.

    -I'm sorry but you put Frillish in the lowest rank, that imo, is one of the biggest mistakes ever.

    -if you can spin Shedinja is a great wall tbh should be up to High C

    -Fraxure is too high

    -

    -Stunfisk up to A, best anti-meta Poke

    -Samurott down from S. Just lol at that one.

    -Riolu to D. Please.

    -Klinklang to A or A-

    -Miltank up

    -Carracosta down


    Will spend more time looking later
  4. Isa

    Isa <(•θ•)> Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    765
    PO Trainer Name:
    Isa
    I don't have any meaningful suggestions whatsoever towards this list, I'm just sad to see that RBY mons can't even dominate the NU tier.

    I do feel a bit surprised though that none of the fresh drops - and there were quite a lot of them - made it to a higher point than Middle A, and that's just one.


    (also is Lapras seriously worse than Butterfree now? Man Ash knew what was good all along)
  5. Versace Python Cased

    Versace Python Cased Tip Toe Wing In My Jawwdinz Tier Leader

    Messages:
    882
    PO Trainer Name:
    -
    Your opinions hold literally no weight if you don't add some solid evidence to back anything up. Something like, "Carracosta down," cannot be taken seriously. Posts like this are at risk of getting infracted.

    Notice how Afro puts together an actual argument, giving reasons why Primeape shouldn't be S in his opinion. This is what you'd have to do for every Pokemon you suggested. And I also advise actually using the Pokemon before you question their viability
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  6. Weavile

    Weavile Give The Gift Of Hype Administrator

    Messages:
    2,257
    I believe Primeape should go down to mid A at best. Basically because what Afro said is true. It's only real set-apart factor is U-Turn imo.

    I believe Ludicolo, Eggs and Piloswine should move up to Mid/High A
    Ludicolo because it can run Seed or Rain Dance LO. The former being bulky and annoying to take out with its awkward typing, it can really cause some damage. The latter being for raw power.
    Eggs because its interesting typing gives it a cool dual-STAB along with a few handy resistances such as fighting, water and elec as well as Sleep Powder. It does have 7 weaknesses but its other factors make up for them really well imo.
    Piloswine is just a monster, incredible physical bulk with Eviolite and a daunting attack stat and STAB coverage, not to mention rocks and Thick Fat making it an ordeal to kill it off easily with its Fire-type weakness.

    I think Fraxure needs a move down to B+. While it's a strong sweeper with DD or a strong Band user. I think its predictability and ease with which it can be killed (even with Eviolite 66/70/50 isn't great) when setting up or revenge killed is too great.

    I think Slacking is high C. 1) Shit's not worse than Klingler.
    2) Despite its ability its power is beyond threatening. Scarf Retaliate can revenge kill most anything, for anything else it can use EQ. It can take hits reasonably well for a nuke with 150/100/65 bulk. A CB set can break pretty much any wall it wants to if it's willing to take the risk of Giga Impact: 252 Atk Choice Band Slaking (+Atk) Giga Impact vs 252 HP/252 Def Alomomola (+Def) : 73.22% - 86.52% (2 hits to KO) (Ik they run Protect but it's just an example of power, it doesn't break Alo directly)
  7. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

    Messages:
    186
    OK, I also have used all of the Pokemon I listed at various points, that bit of your post really confused me. Quite rude tbh too. :[

    [HR][/HR]

    I'll ignore Primeape now as both Weavile and Afro have given valid reasons.

    [HR][/HR]
    There really aren't many ghost types in NU, (albeit more now that the Dusc's dropped.) but Frillish has unique typing, letting it beat things like Samurott (your S ranking for that is still funny imo), has reliable recovery and a decent movepool.

    I'm not saying it should be an A, but a C or similar would be better.

    [HR][/HR]

    As I stated in that original post, Shedinja truly walls so many sweepers in the tier, Klinklang can't touch it. Samurott unless it's running Air Slash for some reason can't touch it. Musharna can't touch it most of the time, as well as a lot of other Pokemon, if NU wasn't such a bitch of a tier to spin in I would suggest moving it to a B or B+

    [HR][/HR]

    Fraxure is not that good, sure it's one of the only Dragons in NU, and one of the most viable but it is simply not that good. It's basically a one-trick pony that gets beaten by a wide-selection of Pokemon, but isn't so abysmal that it needs serious dropping

    [HR][/HR]

    Stunfisk is great, it can be offensive with a specs set or defensive and set up rocks, it walls plenty of things in the tier even if it's an offensive set, and threatens a large amount of the tier also, if defensive and running foul play it beats sub-cm psychic types, which there are a decent chunk of, Ground/Elec is a nice typing also.

    [HR][/HR]

    Samurott; sure it's a threat but it's completely overrated, the SD set (bulky) gets outsped by too many things that can dent it or cripple it, and if you run a speedy SD set it has pretty avg bulk, oh and Water/Bug isn't incredible coverage. Special set is decent but even so there's going to be something it lacks coverage vs, or just can't 2HKO without being in torrent. Maybe A+? It's quite slow too.

    [HR][/HR]

    Riolu, read your definition of the D rank, then think of what Riolu sets there are, it's basically only copycat roar.

    [HR][/HR]

    Klinklang, lacks solid coverage, if it picks Gear Grind + WildCharge it misses out vs a variety of stuff and if GearGrind + Return it misses out other stuff again (Frillish :]) Obviously it can still sweep teams but it really does have a coverage issue, no matter how biased you are.

    [HR][/HR]

    Miltank has nice stats, 3 great abilities to pick from, heal bell, recovery, SR, if you want me to go more indepth just say and I'll come back and edit.

    [HR][/HR]

    Carracosta is very very average (at best) as a Shell Smasher it's outclassed by Gorebyss and even Huntail, it's supersuper slow even at +2 if you're max speed and jolly, if you're using as a support set with rocks it does ok, but only vs Physical attackers that can't hit it super effectively,
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  8. bugzinator

    bugzinator ~Just the laundry room!!~

    Messages:
    206
    Garbodor doesn't appear to be anywhere on the list, I think we discussed it being somewhere between Low A and High B. Ferroseed gives it some competition as a spiker on offensive teams however Garbodor can still set and absorb Toxic Spikes, it can also run a fast(ish) spike set as well a great bulky set which checks a good number of physical attackers in the tier. Garbodor is one of the most reliable spikers and Toxic Spikers in the tier, I definitely believe this is enough to make it A rank material.

    Edit - Cased has now added Garbodor to Low A rank.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  9. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

    Messages:
    411
    PO Trainer Name:
    Juggler
    You say this, but what's your reasoning for putting them there in the first place? Be nice if you included your own arguments.

    I think Primeape is good. It's one of only a handful in the tier that doesn't care at all about Sleep Powder, and U-Turn gives a team a lot of momentum.

    Skuntank should be lower, imo. Outside of the bulky ghost/psychic group it doesn't hit very much very hard, the majority of SR users carry a ground attack (invalidating its use as anti-hazard), and piss-poor coverage make it setup bait for a lot of bulky sweepers (Gurdurr, Klink, Carracosta come to mind).

    Miltank should be at least low A. 100 base speed lets it revenge a lot of slower things, Milk Drink/Heal Bell make it a good cleric, and Sap Sipper lets it ignore the likes of Tangela and get a free switch-in far more often + team synergy.

    Where is Seismitoad? I'd put it above Gastrodon, despite lacking recovery it supports with Knock Off and rocks. Plus specially bulky doesn't die to Zard's HP grass, and can OHKO back with Hydro Pump and some EVs.

    Haha what? 358 (Jolly +2) outspeeds everything up to and including Serperior. It loses to >70 base speed scarfers, but you shouldn't be trying to outspeed scarfers with Carracosta in the first place.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  10. Aurist

    Aurist well, that's another penguin dropped on the dick Tier Leader

    Messages:
    2,248
    @ Um Hello?, re Samurott, you seem to have forgotten its Special set, which imo is what pushes it to an S.

    Seriously Cased, Primeape into Mid or High A, for reasons we've already discussed, and it was dishonest of you to shove it into S after literally everyone else said it was an A.

    Zweilous seriously doesn't belong in A. I know you have a fetish for it but pls. It's a high C, it has a reasonable niche despite its bad weaknesses, being 2hkoed by most things still, and the missing.

    I believe Electrode is a high C pokemon too. It has a niche in fast Rain support but otherwise is outclassed by other Electric types.

    Metang is also high C. It simply doesn't fit into NU meta any more but it still checks 1 or 2 things (esp Klinklang) that have few checks so it's worthwhile rarely.

    Sawsbuck down to low A imo. It's a pretty risky pokemon, just its speed tier is magical.

    Gardevoir I'd like to see up in high A. Its Scarf set is what really makes it golden in NU, able to be a HUGE problem for offensive teams and easily able to hurt defensive teams too.

    Mesprit I'm sorry but it's high A, not S. Its support is excellent but its offensive sets are somewhat lacking.

    Ninjask probably belongs in high C. It has a very good niche in NU and its offensive sets aren't too bad either.

    Swanna to low B. It can be a high threat when it sets up rain but it's difficult to actually get that set up.

    Floatzel is truly more than a C pokemon imo. Its power and speed, good coverage, unburnability (HI SCALD), switcheroo abuse etc are extremely underrated and I think it's a minimum low B.

    I'd like to see Pelipper in the list, at low B. It's essentially a bulky Swanna (I've seen both do an offensive rain dance set and they're both pretty good), and it also runs a pretty decent physical walling set.

    I'll have more to argue later :3
  11. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems… Tier Leader

    Messages:
    674
    Klinklang for S Rank. Yes, it's one-dimensional but there was some arguing for it to get a Suspect Discussion, and all other pokemon that were argued about are in the S rank. Having access to an incredible boosting moves which outruns all scarfers while boosting attack at the same time is incredible, and if it's check are weakened it can easily plow through teams. All teams should be prepared to this, making it S rank imo.

    Not sure about having Rotom-S in mid-A since it isn't as good as most people say it is. Rotom-S is incredibly easy to wall due to a lot of popular Ground types nowadays, e.g. Piloswine, Seismitoad, Gastrodon and Camerupt. Another big flaw of Rotom-S is its weakness to Stealth Rock, which is very annoying as a scarcer making it need Rapid Spin support while the Defensive set is also heavily crippled. The Sub LO attacker set is outclassed by Rotom-F who can 2HKO Camerupt, Seismitoad (which is missing btw) and get a chance of 2HKOing Gastrodon after SR, something Rotom-S simply can't. Altough the Defensive set is really nice to have an answer to Sawk and other fighters, a Defensive pokemon with a weakness to Stealth Rock and an iffy HP stat just isn't good enough for mid-A.


    Actually Swanna's most common set is Sub/Roost/Hurricane/Surf. It can take on Ludicolo and Special Samurott which not a lot of pokemon can while abusing Ludi's Rain. It can also set up a Sub in front of walls like Alomomola and Ferroseed. It spams powerful attacks with relative ease and it sits in a great speed tier, just above the Base 95 mons. It should stay where it is.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  12. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

    Messages:
    186
    @ Aurist, I mentioned it, but didn't go indepth :[

    Might edit later
  13. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

    Messages:
    411
    PO Trainer Name:
    Juggler
    The problem with Rotom-S is that it has two main sets, scarfed and flinchstall. Sure, I can switch my Seismitoad into it hoping for a Volt Switch, but if I get hit by Confuse Ray or Trick I'm basically out of commission. Its best as a lead, where it's likely to outspeed opposing SR-setters and will cause all kinds of trouble either way.

    Klink can be dangerous, but definitely not S-tier dangerous. Most fire types can switch into the boost and take a hit, and there's relatively few walls who can't either take hits all day or KO it back.

    252 +1 Atk Klinklang (+Atk) Return vs 4 HP/0 Def Charizard: 62.75% - 74.16%
    252 +1 Atk Klinklang (+Atk) Return vs 252 HP/252 Def Alomomola (+Def) : 23.78% - 28.09%
    252 +1 Atk Klinklang (+Atk) Return vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def) : 20.06% - 23.65%
    252 +1 Atk Klinklang (+Atk) Gear Grind vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Dusclops (+Def) : 15.85% - 19.01%
    252 +1 Atk Klinklang (+Atk) Gear Grind vs 4 HP/0 Def Regirock: 40.4% - 48.34%
    252 +1 Atk Klinklang (+Atk) Gear Grind vs 252 HP/4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 45.05% - 53.47%
  14. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Messages:
    1,929
    I think Samurott's ability to run completely different attacking sets puts it in S. What checks one set is completely destroyed by the other, which makes it much harder to counter.
  15. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

    Messages:
    134
    PO Trainer Name:
    AmourShipper
    Samurott's ability to run both a physical and special set is what puts it in S-Rank. The thing that makes Samurott even better is that both sets have wildly different counters; the SD set's counters are demolished by the special set, and the same with the other way around. Samurott enforces a mindgame by its appearance in Team Preview; and if you guess wrong, you'll pay. Also, even then Samurott is still very threatening with both sets, and can be very destructive. Don't forget SD Rott has Aqua Jet, so it can pick off faster mons.

    Mesprit's fine where it is imo, simply because it can do a lot of roles well. Support set is awesome, and Mesprit makes a good Sawk check, while it can run SubCM pretty well, making for a good bulky sweeper, sets up well and hits hard. It also has good bulk to set up too, and stat wise Mesprit has few flaws. It's a great glue Pokemon and fits well into S imo.

    Absol to Mid A imo, it's a great wallbreaker with SD+Sucker Punch, and has a lot of immediate power and Dark+Fighting coverage is excellent, nothing really wants to take a hit from Absol and it's quite the brutal force. While Absol has a bit of a hard time setting up SD, it doesn't always need to grab an SD boost, because Absol on its own packs immediate power and can threaten offense and stall alike; it also handles Mesprit and Musharna well which makes it a good teammate for Fighting-types. If you do grab the SD boost, Absol becomes even better and is a neat win condition; but as I said, since Absol is already powerful it doesn't need the boost.

    Gardevoir might be able to make it into High A simply because it's strong as hell, and has decent Speed for NU too. It's also rather versatile, and Specs is really powerful and wallbreaks so well it's not even funny. Its coverage is amazing too, and Trick allows it to cripple Absol and Dusclops with ease, and it can run a Specially Defensive set that walls well and has Wish support and Heal bell. Also, Trace is a great ability that allows Gardevoir to stop Ludicolo.

    Dusclops is pretty good and should be a bit higher imo, it's really hard to kill and is immune to Sawk's CC which makes it better, also has EQ which can get the surprise on Houndoom, and in general Dusclops's WoW is annoying and makes it a good wall. It also has Pressure which means it can drain all of Sawk's moves, and better bulk than Missy helps it a lot.

    Primeape is way too high, drop it down for all the reasons stated above; Afro explained well so I don't need to reiterate what he said.

    Just my two cents.
  16. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

    Messages:
    423
    PO Trainer Name:
    Liarliarpantsonfire
    It's also very splashable because it requires barely any support to perform well. Basically you can't go wrong with using Samurott.

    @Marche Radiuju: I don't know where you got that calculator from :x Only the Charizard calc is accurate. Here's the correct calcs from Smogon Honkalculator:

    +1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 364-432 (90.77 - 107.73%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 90-108 (31.69 - 38.02%) -- 91.94% chance to 3HKO
    +1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind vs. 240 HP / 0+ Def Regirock: 228-268 (63.15 - 74.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Anyway Klinklang is fine in High A. It has solid stats, typing and a great boosting move but it's type coverage is mediocre. Many pokemon can keep it in check, like Tangela with HP Fire, Quagsire, Seismitoad etc.
  17. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Messages:
    1,929
    Glad to see Fraxure getting the credit it deserves. That thing is nigh on unstoppable once Tangela and Alomomola are down.
  18. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member Tier Leader

    Messages:
    867
    PO Trainer Name:
    meeps
    hi

    252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Frillish: 146-174 (46.64 - 55.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    nice counter imo (no one uses grass knot anymore or spdef frillish)

    frillish is still a pretty nice poke, but you really should make sure a poke actually counters/checks something before you say it

    shedinja is a nice poke, still needs a shitton of support to actually be effective, c at best prob.

    dont want to comment on fraxure too much, never seen/used much

    stunfisk is fine where it is, being able to beat subcm pokes with foul play is a terrible argument (although foul play is a good move on stunfisk allowing it to do nice damage on strong physical attackers). i cant even think of anything that would commonly run sub cm other than gardevior, which is better off running specs. and cm musharna just laughs at it

    "special set (samurott) is decent" lmao. nothing ranked s-tier can safely switch into samurott and risk getting ohko'd or 2hko'd. from a+ to a- ferroseed, lickilicky, and ludicolo are the only three pokes which could take at least two hits from samurott. samurott is fine where it is due to its impact on top tier threats and other lesser used threats

    i'll post more later, lazy and stuff
  19. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd No one listens to pnerd.

    Messages:
    2,311
    Drapion should either be grouped together with Skuntank or higher than it. Sure, Skuntank has Sucker Punch, and because of that can revenge scarfed Psychics and other fast pokemon, but Drapion can provide much wider and easier to build around support. Toxic Spikes Drapion can be just as limiting to both Gardevoir and non-cleric Musharna than Skuntank can be, and then pester the whole other team with consistent poison damage, with few poison or steel types being popular in NU. It also makes much better use of Taunt with both its bulk and the fact that it can sweep. I personally don't think Skuntank should be that high regardless, but the fact that you forgot about Drapion altogether makes me kind of sad.

    Other than that I really don't have many conflicting opinions with this ranking. Primeape being S rank is questionable, but its Banded set is actually very, very good. Being able to U-Turn out when Psychics come in and bringing your own Pursuiter is a wonderful feeling, something Sawk can't provide. Punishment on it is also very fun against a greedy CM Musharna.
  20. Versace Python Cased

    Versace Python Cased Tip Toe Wing In My Jawwdinz Tier Leader

    Messages:
    882
    PO Trainer Name:
    -

    If I included my own arguments for every Pokemon, you'd have to wait until XY for this. Like I said, this list was made with some very intelligent NU players and I, err I include myself as intelligent.
    [Hide]Finch Edit: Cased is usually pretty intelligent when it comes to NU, js[/hide]
    ONTO CHANGES:

    I'm also holding off on the new Pokemon for a month until everyone gets 100% used to them. I agree with everyone's opinion but they'll just stay where they are and then we'll put them wherever they belong.

    Gardevoir to High A, I totally agree to whoever said that (lazy to look up) maybe Aurist? Anyways, its offensive sets are certainly top notch and its defensive sets are very good as well. Its Scarf set is certainly troublesome, while LO/Specs causes damage as well. Support moves like WoW/Taunt/Wish creates a great defensive set. I'm 100% fine with High A.

    Also, didn't have one for Pelipper and putting it to C+ it certainly has a good Physical wall set, and a good offensive. But both are outclassed by current A Pokemon.

    I was harsh on Frillish tbh, it's a Ghost-type although with the new ones in the tier, it's certainly outclassed. I'll put it in C-.

    Floatzel to B as well, being one of the fastest Water-type Pokemon in the game (GG Arceus-Water), and good Attack. I think Floatzel deserves B, whether its Swift Swim in Rain or being protected from burns with Water Veil, also Switcheroo is a nice move on Choiced sets, causes a lot of havoc, esp. to common switch-ins like Tangela and Alomomola.

    I'd like to hear some opinions on Fraxure, Primeape, Mesprit, Ludicolo, and Piloswine. and where they should be placed. They're all fantastic Pokemon and I'm fine with moving them anywhere if people give me more reasoning.

    (Forgot Eelektross/Seismitoad, thanks Liarliar, Eel to Mid B and Seismitoad to High B until more opinions on it)
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2013
  21. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

    Messages:
    423
    PO Trainer Name:
    Liarliarpantsonfire
    I don't think I see Eelektross anywhere on the list. Seismitoad is also nowhere, though its one of the most popular Stealth Rock users next to Mesprit. I think its worthy of Low A, as it can use a support set with Stealth Rock and Knock Off, or go on the offensive side with Rain Dance + Swift Swim. Great typing with only one relatively uncommon weakness and overall good stats make it a very solid choice in the current metagame. It should also be noted that Seismitoad beats most other Stealth Rockers 1 vs 1, aside from the uncommon Torterra and the more common Ferroseed.

    Eelektross is not really the best pokemon there is, but should be on the list nonetheless. Bulky Expert Belt is probably the best set, as it can bluff the Specs and hit switch ins like Piloswine and Seismitoad super-effectively. Below average defenses and poor speed hold it back, though a slow Volt Switch can bring powerful, frail sweepers in safely. It can also hold a Damp Rock and support its team with Rain Dance, while spamming powerful Thunders in the meantime. No weaknesses at all helps it in its support role, as well as the aforementioned slow Volt Switch. I'd rank it in either Low or Mid B, not too sure.
  22. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

    Messages:
    186
    The idea was more LO stalling and just clicking recover, not taking essentially no damage from every possible attack. :[



    Illumise is missing, I assume it would just be the exact same as Volbeat, as I'm unaware as to any movepool changes? (If anything Illumise is better just because higher base sp.atk)


    Lapras being a D makes me sad :(((, I would argue but it's basically the only Pokemon up there I've never used, along with Kangaskan
  23. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd No one listens to pnerd.

    Messages:
    2,311
    In order to argue Primeape being S tier, we have to compare the other completely phenomenal choice band wielding fighting type in the tier, Sawk. I hate using U-Turn as a way to make something better than it would be without it, but as LC showed us, Fighting type U-Turn users are a blessing. And this is amplified by Primeape; nearly everything that likes switching into Primeape is hit super effectively by U-Turn, and this not only allows you to rack up damage against Psychics and things like Tangela, but allows you to switch into either a pursuit user or something that can capitalize on said wall.

    This is something Sawk cannot provide. Is it 20 base points stronger? Of course, but Sawk's raw power still can't save it from hitting a bulky Psychic and not being able to break it, or muscle through Mesprit(or something not as bulky as Musharna) before you get a Psychic or something that can kill you to the face(Brave Birds, other close combats from things like Hariyama if you predict wrong). You're forced to either go all the way with Sawk and risk losing momentum, or guess correctly and kill something. It's still a low risk, high reward pokemon, however it's U-Turn that gives Primeape that escape button and keep some kind of forward pressure going, while being able to hurt psychics efficiently.

    It doesn't even really lose any important 2HKOs that Sawk can get either, it's just that Primeape cuts it a bit closer since it's not a full blown nuke. But U-Turn is truly what makes it an S rank contender and on par with Sawk as a Choice Band user.

    Even disregarding Choice Band, it's still the best Choice Scarf user in the tier. Unlike a lot of things that would love to be revengers, Primeape is resistant to rocks, giving it many chances to switch in without spin support. It only really seems weak because unlike most other scarfers in the tier, it can't hit many walls super effectively, and therefore doesn't really fare well against any of them. However, that's what U-Turn is for.

    Plus Punishment 2HKOs Musharna when it has 1 CM under its belt. That's from the banded set, so a greedy Musharna with 2 or more can be killed if it's sitting at about 70% HP. Sawk wishes it could do that to any of the psychics, let alone the CM sets that are out there.
  24. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Messages:
    1,929
    Just my opinion, but I think Fraxure could be mid A material, maybe even high A. It is the best Dragon Dance user in NU I think - it's faster than Crawdaunt and more powerful than Altaria. Since it's an NFE it can hold Eviolite, meaning it's actually pretty bulky. Steel types are also rare in NU, with Klinklang being the only really common one. It also packs Taunt to render most walls set up fodder. As a late game cleaner, I think it's one of the best in the tier.

    I don't think Riolu's C material. It can only really do the trolly Prankster + Copycat Roar set, and that set only works if your opponent has no Rapid Spinner or anti-hazard Pokémon (Sawk, Rampardos, anything with Taunt).
  25. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

    Messages:
    411
    PO Trainer Name:
    Juggler
    Eviolite Fraxure is not going to be bulky enough to be worth it. You're better off running a Lum to actually let you get a second DD and outspeed scarfers/recover from Outrage. Steel types are rare, but dragon types are also rare, which means Fraxure's STAB isn't going to be hitting anything super-effective. I'd make a better case for Combusken as a late-game sweeper, seeing as it gets the passive speed boost and can SD up faster (and has Flare Blitz, an overall more useful STAB than Outrage in NU). Basically - Fraxure is good, but not so good that it's comparable to Charizard and Gurdurr.

    @Seismitoad:
    Mesprit is cool in S. It's the most dangerous SR user, with Levitate and Trick viability and decent all-around stats + excellent movepool. I'd personally even put it above Musharna, really, since it can run anything from support to pivot to lategame setup.
  26. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw Samph rejects me Tier Leader

    Messages:
    1,110
    PO Trainer Name:
    Afro Smash
    This is gonna be long.

    The Main ones:

    [​IMG] Primeape: S > B+/A- I've already stated my opinion on Primeape, but i'd liek to revise it slightly. It's power really is underwhelming as a Scarfer unless you're using Close Combat, and even then it only manages to do like 80% vs the likes of Sawk. Punishment isn't even worth using (w/ Scarf) as it is incredibly weak vs everything bar NP Missy. If it didn't get U-Turn I would be suggesting it for like B-, but U-Turn on it is very good on it for momentum vs Psychic types, however it's still pretty useless vs all Ghost types. Banded is a Faster Weaker Sawk that fails to wall break anywhere near as well (because no Mold Breaker + and less Atk) but can sweep a lot more efficiently, however it is very physically frail and can be revenge killed by priority and can't really switch in on anything. It is better than I said in my first post, however it does not deserve to be among Sawk and the other S ranks.

    [​IMG] Gurdurr: A+ > S Gurdurr is an incredible Offensive Check to numerous Physical attackers, and even some Special Attackers. Eviolite allows it to tank hits, and Base 105 Atk + Drain Punch means it can heal up a lot of health vs Offensive Pokemon, beating almost all of them 1 on 1. It has access to 2 great abilities, Iron Fist makes Gurdurr hit very hard straight off the bat and allows it to 2HKO bulkier pokemon like Emboar in 2 hits with Drain Punch + Mach Punch. Guts allows it to not care about Burns, and want to be paralysed, increasing it's offensive prowess and stopping it from being Toxic'd. It has access to Ice Punch to nail things like Vileplume, Altaria + Torterra, or Payback to beat most Ghost types 1 on 1. Mach Punch is an incredible tool, allowing it to reliably revenge kill pokemon such as Houndoom, Zangoose, Sawsbuck, Kangaskhan, Crawdaunt, Klinklang Etc. The only thing wrong with Gurdurr is that it requires a bit more support to flourish since it is rather helpless Vs Bulky Poison types like Weezing + Garbodor, and Bulky Psychic types like Musharna + Mesprit, whereas Sawk has Mold Breaker EQ + Primeape has U-Turn for scouting and momentum. But it performs it's role as a bulky Pivot/Sweeper so well that it deserves an S rank imo.

    [​IMG] Mandibuzz: A > S Mandibuzz is absolutely incredible in the current meta, it is extremely effective against basically all the new drops, either shutting them down with Taunt or smacking them hard with Foul Play. Mandibuzz is probably the best Stall breaker in the tier, it's Dark typing means it's never threatened by Calm Mind Musharna, it has great Speed for a Wall, so has access to a very fast Taunt, shutting down almost all Defensive pokes before they can move. It also has reliable recovery in Roost, and STAB Foul Play which can deter Physical attackers from setting up, and even revenge kill some of them (KO's +2 Bulky Sam after rocks). It also has access to Toxic to cripple the Walls it shuts down and Whirlwind to phaze out threatening pokemon or rack up residual damage with Hazards. Some Flaws Mandibuzz has are that it really hates any sort of status, especially Toxic or Paralysis, as they significantly reduce its Walling/Stall Breaking capabilities, it also really likes having a spinner, as Stealth Rocks turn a lot of would be 3HKO's into 2HKO's, however Claydol is a great partner for Mandibuzz, so you don't really need to sacrifice a team slot to spin. Again despite some of its flaws it Stall breaks + Walls things so well it deserves an S rank.

    [​IMG] Zangoose A- > A+/S Zangoose is just an absolutely incredible Wall breaker/Sweeper/Revenge killer. It's STAB Facade is incredibly powerful, on par with CB Sawk's Close Combat, except it can be spammed against common bulky pokes like Weezing, Musharna + Mesprit and rack up 2HKO's without a problem. It also has coverage with Close Combat + Night Slash to nail Rock/Steel Types and Ghost types respectively, so it has basically 0 counters. And Finally Quick Attack deals around 50% to most offensive pokemon, so is a very effective revenge killer and hits a nice speed tier with 90 Speed. It can perform well against every playstyle, it wall breaks against Stall, it straight up 6-0's Buky Offense, and it can get a lot of kills with Quick Attack + Facade against Offensive. It's held back by Toxic Orb putting it on a timer and it's relatively frail, but it's damage output is so incredible whilst it's alive that it's worth it.

    [​IMG] Ludicolo A- > A+ Ludicolo has incredible typing for an offensive or defensive role. Offensively it can be a self sufficient Rain Sweeper that gets STAB on Hydro Pump + Giga Drain meaning it is very hard to switch into and very hard to wear down, and it gets Ice Beam to round off coverage. It is threatening to basically every team unless you are a pokemon from it's very small list of Checks. It can also go Sp Def with Sub Seed as well which is very good thanks to it's great unique Water Grass tying and good Special Defense. It's able to Check basically all Water types and can stall out a lot of Special Attackers thanks to Giga Drain, Leech Seed + its natural great Sp Def.

    [​IMG] Drifblim B > A-/A It's Acrobatics set is actually very good at softening up the opposing team. STAB Acrobatics Flying Gem despite coming off pretty low attack still hits very hard and will OHKO pretty much any offensive pokemon, and 2HKO most bulkier pokes after rocks. After activating Unburden it outspeeds the whole tier, and is then free to Will o Wisp or Destiny Bond it's revenge killer, so against most bulky + offensive teams it gets 2 kills or 1 kill and cripples a mon with Will O Wisp. It has a lot of Useful Immunities and Resistances too so doesn't struggle to find an opportunity to come in and activate Unburden. It's only real flaws are being weak to rocks and being pretty much deadweight vs Stall[/HIDE]

    Minor ones:

    [​IMG] Gardevoir A+ > A- It is a very strong and pretty versatile being able to go Specs, Scarf, Calm Mind or LO Destiny Bond, however its too physically frail, and doesn't hit a great speed tier so is quite easy to revenge kill, especially it's Choiced sets with all the Pursuit trappers roaming around.

    [​IMG] Sawsbuck A > A- Pretty good SD Sweeper, however it can rarely sweep since it loses to Vileplume + Tangela even if it gets the Sap Sipper Boost, and is pretty easy to revenge kill with either Mach Punch, common Scarfers or just naturally faster pokes.

    [​IMG] Piloswine A- > A+ It is very bulky with Eviolite, resists Bolt/Beam, has incredibly threatening Dual STAB, and priority in Ice Shard, it's got a hell of a lot going for it, and can slot very nicely onto any team looking for a Stealth Rocker.

    [​IMG] Zweilous A- > B It is a very good pokemon on Stall thanks to its phazing capabilites and typing, hoever it isn't reliable due to Hustle and is pretty bad outside of Stall, it's too niche for A rank imo.

    [​IMG] Tangela A- > A Better Physical wall than Momo, and although it lacks Wish it makes up for it by actually having an offensive presence and can cripple things with Sleep Powder. With Eviolite it's pretty Specially bulky + has lots of recovery options, Regenerator/Lech Seed/Giga Drain. Best Physical Wall in the tier deserves an A rank imo.

    [​IMG] Gabite C- > C+ Great Dual stab, Rough Skin, good bulk with Evio, Volt Blocker and Fire resist is nice, and isn't weak to grass which is helpful as a lot of Electric pokes are running HP Grass nowadays for Seis/Pilo/Rhydon. Niche but good poke as a Stealth Rocker.

    [​IMG] Shedinja C- > C+ Requires a lot of support but can wall half the tier and sweep once the only things that can hit it super effectively are weakened/dead.

    [​IMG] Tentacool C- > C+ Walls basically every Water type in the tier, immune to Toxic/Absorbs T Spikes, can Spin and lay it's own T Spikes, Great Sp Def, niche but effective.

    [​IMG] Butterfree C- > C+ Basically guaranteed Sleep + momentum with Compoundeyes Sleep Powder and U-Turn, can also run stun spore to effectively cripple 2 pokemon within the first 2 turns.[/HIDE]
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  27. Roku

    Roku Too sexy for my shirt

    Messages:
    624
    I'll toss in some judgment just as I see them, I apologize if it ends up being fairly scattered.

    Ludicolo- In my opinion it should be moved to mid A to high A, for reasons stated before, being that it can run the bulky seeding set or the devastating LO Rain set, which OHKOs the majority of the tier

    Primeape- Down to high A for reasons already stated, I have no additional arguments to add in favor of this change

    Bouffalant- Should be moved to low A if not mid A, as a bulky SD set or straight up band can easily punch holes in teams and sweep on its own, with its only major downsides being the fighting scarfers and outspeeds and levitate ghosts in Misdreavus and Haunter. Requires a bit of team support, mostly a pursuiter, as a sawk/primeape check should really be on every team anyway

    Metang- Down to low B or high C, as it becomes easy set up fodder for lots of mons, while not dealing much damage of its own or being able to phaze, though its resistances keep it from mid C

    Gabite- Up to mid C, though admittedly I haven't used it in for a few months, so I can't vouch for it as well as I could a while ago, it can still set up SR nicely, while hitting decently hard to justify it being on more offensive teams, certainly more useful than Metang in my experience

    Bastiodon- Down to D, its only use is to metal burst, really, and even then that is painfully easy to predict around, you are better off using another mon 100% of the time

    Otherwise, I think this is pretty well put together, no real issues taken with other mons.
  28. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

    Messages:
    111
    Rhydon for high A. Easily the most physically bulky thing in the tier with useful, albeit flawed, resistances. It can both viably run a pivot and bulky attacker set, while hard stopping a ton of threats and can even take some of the most powerful things in the tier (+2 Superpower from Absol, Banded Sawk CC, etc). Edge/Quake stab also makes it incredibly hard to switch in on, esp. on top of the extremely relevant coverage megahorn grants.

    Muk for High B. While mainly useful as a sponge, curse restalk shits all over specially oriented teams thanks to an amazing immunity to trick and a lack of care towards sleep powder. Sadly any steel types stop it cold, as well as a handful of other things like ground types and so on.

    Bouffalant for Mid A. The actual anti meta poke. Can either run extremely dangerous banded sets either using reckless OR sap sipper or supremely effective stall breaker sets with solid defenses, sap sipper, and Sub/SD.

    Klinklang for High B. One of the things you HAVE to build for, but simultaneously one of the easiest things to stop. Support sets are mediocre, and its lack of coverage is its greatest weakeness.

    Primeape has already been talked about, so I'll just throw myself in on the Low A pile, has a niche but easy to outclass.

    Frillish is Mid B at the very least. It is the ONLY THING to check all Samurott sets, on top of being generally useful thanks to its great typing and ability. Scald/Night shade prevent it from being generic set up fodder.

    Mesprit for low A. Jack of all trades, master of none. Literally the only two reasons to use it are mild surprise factor and maybe thanks to its ability to survive some REALLY specific hits (like taking a cc better than Gardevoir I guess). That being said it is still 'good' at everything it does.

    Lapras for low B. Ice typing sucks, but it is CRAZY versatile and 100+ base hp is now more valuable thanks to Clops/Noir dropping. Water absorb is also crazy fantastic. Good stats too.

    Beheeyem for High B/Low A. Really unsure how this thing is so low, Choice Specs straight up smashes EVERYTHING in the tier, has reasonable bulk, and requires less prediction than banded sawk to boot. Beyond that it can run LO Trick Room for anti meta shenanigans and whatnot. Easily could be considered the second best offensive psychic type in the tier, if not THE best. I'd put it higher, but being forced to go last makes it difficult to keep around for long periods of time, especially with all the dark types (although I think it can take one of any pursuit, when not switching out)
  29. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd No one listens to pnerd.

    Messages:
    2,311
    If you're looking to flat out KO things from 100% HP, you're using scarfers the wrong way. Plus Banded Primeape is also used differently than you would play Sawk. That's really the last thing I'll say on Primeape. I could settle with it being anywhere in high or mid A though.

    Gurdurr is definitely not an S rank pokemon, in my opinion. Its reliance on getting poisoned or burned to deal greater damage hinders its ability to stay alive, ironically. As incredibly bulky as it is, there's also too many things that can still 3HKO or even 2HKO it, while it can't really provide much power without burning that turn of set up. It's held back just enough where A+ is perfect for it.

    Definitely agree with Zangoose going S or A+ though, somehow people have forgotten about it but there's really nothing in the current metagame that wants to fight it. It's like a normal type Sawk with a little less survivability that can switch moves and break every wall in the game over its knee.

    Mandibuzz would be S rank, no questions asked, if it weren't for rocks. It turns too many 3HKOs on it into 2HKOs. Claydol's splashable on a lot of teams but it's still no guaranteed spin.
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  30. Amon

    Amon Normal User

    Messages:
    72
    PO Trainer Name:
    Phillipx or Phillipz
    Spinda for c please. Contrary superpower is good.
  31. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member Tier Leader

    Messages:
    867
    PO Trainer Name:
    meeps
    you're either trolling or dont have much experience in the tier (in which either case you probably shouldnt be posting here)

    spinda has absolutely terrible bulk, cant take any special attack from a decent special attacker, and fighting-types such as sawk, primeape, gurdurr dominate the tier and also annihilate spinda. suggesting spinda anything higher than d rank (which is still a terrible idea) is absolutely silly.

    on the subject of klinklang, it is fine where it is, and may be worthy or s-rank. while klinklang does have numerou checks, you need to one of its numerous checks to prevent klinklang from sweeping. it really does not need any support at all to do work. i mean some ho teams are completely destroyed by klinklang and it manages to get +1

    @marche

    half of your calcs dont prove anything, klinklang ohkos charizard after rocks, same for piloswine, and sets up easily on alomomola
  32. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

    Messages:
    423
    PO Trainer Name:
    Liarliarpantsonfire
    I don't agree with Afro Cash to put Mandibuzz in S rank. Sure, it has reliable recovery, great bulk all around, access to Taunt, Whirlwind and U-turn and boasts a semi-unique typing, but it also has crippling weaknesses to Electric, Ice and most importantly Rock. Especially this SR weakness reduces its walling capabilities drastically. It doesn't offer much against offensive teams, where it is forced out easily by threats like Sawk, Rotom-S, Articuno, Klinklang etc. It's often forced to stall with Roost and Toxic, which doesn't let it support its team very well. Lickilicky is a much better team supporter thanks to Heal Bell and Wish, and Alomomola is a much better pivot switch thanks to not being weak to SR and having a good ability in Regenerator (Mandibuzz' ability is hardly worth mentioning). It has a niche in annoying stall, but any decently built stall team can get past Mandibuzz, through a faster Taunt/Toxic user or phazing with Dragon Tail. Vileplume can freely spam Sludge Bomb to get a poison, Seismitoad can Knock Off, etc.

    In short: Mandibuzz is not one of those pokemon that you can put on your team and that will perform well consistently. Stall has always been a rare sight in NU, and other pokes outclass the bird defensively. It's a good poke, but it provides limited team support and its SR weakness stops it from being a great poke. Therefore I think it is fine in Mid A Rank.
  33. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

    Messages:
    186
    Stall is getting a pretty good boost with the new drops, and even before them it wasn't never done.

    Not much actually has better mixed bulk then Mandibuzz and with the potential offensive capabilities it has, in taunt/BB/Foulplay/Uturn I'll say it deserves to be an S also.
    [HR][/HR]

    Going to suggest that Ferroseed drops 1 rank, - to low A - it's got a nice typing and access to both SR & Spikes, but if taunted it's completely useless, with access to a weak gyro ball as it's only viable attacking move, (the only other 2 moves I would ever consider are Bullet Seed and Explosion).

    In general as purely a Physical wall Tangela (comparing because Grass, Eviolite and wally as hell) outclasses it in most ways bar hazards, - I'll say Tangela has better typing purely because of things like Sawk and Primeape in NU.

    Obviously Ferroseed has pretty incredible mixed stats and the low HP doesn't matter so much because of leech seed, but ye, as previously stated, taunt beats it, trick cripples it to the point that it likely isn't doing much bar getting iron barb damage for the rest of the match and 0 offensive presence is an issue.
  34. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw Samph rejects me Tier Leader

    Messages:
    1,110
    PO Trainer Name:
    Afro Smash
    It's weakness to Ice and Electric isn't 'crippling' that's like saying Musharna shouldn't be S rank because it's weakness to Dark, Bug and Ghost is crippling, all pokemon have weaknesses, you just cover these with other pokemon. It's weakness to Stealth Rocks is a valid point, however now that Claydol is in the tier, you don't have to waste a teamslot on a useless pokemon to have a Spinner, not 100% but is a very good partner and has great survivability to spin throughout a match. Mandibuzz itself is also very effective at crippling/killing all the ghost types in the tier, allowing a teammate to spin. Stall has recieved a major buff with the recent drops, Ferroseed, Dusclops, Dusknoir + kinda Claydol and Miltank are all boons to stall, so you will be seeing it a lot more often.

    Vs offensive teams Mandibuzz is anything but dead weight, no Physical attacker wants to come in on a foul play, and no physical attacker wants to start setting up, for example Mandibuzz can OHKO Samurott + Absol if they're at +2 or Phaze bulkier pokes or resists to Foul Play (e.g. Klinklang) with Whirlwind. Mandibuzz has fantastic mixed bulk and can live super effective hits from either side of the spectrum with ease if it chooses to invest, rotom-S does like 42-50% with Volt Switch if Mandibuzz is Sp Def which can easily be roosted off on the same turn.

    Mandibuzz isn't a team supporter like Lickilicky or Alomomola, it is a Great Wall and an incredible Stall Breaker, it's job is to shut down said team supporters, which it does very effectively. It doesn't just 'annoy' stall it shuts it down, and no common poke on Stall teams can outspeed and Taunt Mandibuzz, except i guess Skuntank or Misdreavus, however Misdreavus usually forgoes Taunt for Heal Bell on Stall, and isn't likely to be coming in for free on Mandibuzz, and Skuntank can't do anything after it's Taunted Mandibuzz.

    You can put Mandibuzz on any team, it is a complete counter to any Grass, Psychic, Ghost pokemon, it threatens offensive teams with STAB Foul Play, and shuts down Stall with Taunt, all whilst remaining healthy with roost, and not dying to much of anything thanks to it's great mixed bulk. It definitely is an S rank mon imo, and it's worth will really shine through as Stall becomes more popular in the following weeks.

    Edit: i'll ad actual calcs in later, and if ppl think it isn't worth S because of rocks + status weakness, then at least put it in A+.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
  35. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd No one listens to pnerd.

    Messages:
    2,311
    Seconding Mandibuzz to A+. I'm just iffy on S purely because rocks really do hinder it that much in terms of being useful against offense. Still a monster versus balanced teams though, since it's able to shut down and eventually beat all of the team's walls which balance relies on to pivot off of. It's like Golbat but without the Psychic weaknesses and ability to troll Sawk.
  36. da raikage

    da raikage [Hero]

    Messages:
    256
    PO Trainer Name:
    [Hero]Mikasa
    I can third mandibuzz to A+/S, it may not have the ability to wall Sawk, but it walls enough of the tier to be called top tier imo. It may be weak to bolt/beam, but if it's specially defensive, it can take tbolts from something like electabuzz rather easily, doing about 40% I believe. It is weak to rocks, but that's just a little balancing imo. Golbat obtains his fighting resist by gaining a psychic weakness, but mandibuzz is immune to psychic and neutral to fighting, as well as having amazing bulk. A+ at least imo
  37. Versace Python Cased

    Versace Python Cased Tip Toe Wing In My Jawwdinz Tier Leader

    Messages:
    882
    PO Trainer Name:
    -
    I agree 100% with Mandibuzz in A+, like Afro Smash said, it's one of the best defensive Pokemon right now and with all the new tier changes, Mandibuzz is able to shut down all of them with its main set including Taunt/Foul Play/Roost/Whirlwind or Toxic. I don't believe it should go S Rank because a lot of 3HKOs turn into 2HKOs after Stealth Rock damage, I think everyone's discussed enough. Mandibuzz to A+!

    [​IMG]

    I think you're using scarfers incorrectly. Scarfers are in no means expected to OHKO every Pokemon, having Sawk in the tier as the premiere Fighting-type really makes people believe that Primeape should do the same. U-Turn also creates more mindgames with Psychic/Ghost-types who are usually unafraid of switching into Gurdurr/Sawk, instead of relying on double switching, U-Turn allows you to go into whatever Pokemon can trap/threaten the opposing Psychic/Ghost, since you constantly complain about Fighting/Dark/Psychic in NU to no success, I figured you'd be one of the people who'd appreciate U-Turn as a move to boost your argument, but I guess not. Like I said, there are reasons for both sides and I'd like to hear more opinions from other users. The legitimacy of both arguments are about equal right now.

    Gurdurr is no doubt a fantastic Pokemon, hence the A+ Ranking. Anyways, I think you summed up my argument 100% "The only thing wrong with Gurdurr is that it requires a bit more support to flourish since it is rather helpless Vs Bulky Poison types like Weezing + Garbodor, and Bulky Psychic types like Musharna + Mesprit, whereas Sawk has Mold Breaker EQ + Primeape has U-Turn for scouting and momentum" S Rank Pokemon don't need as heavy support, obviously you mentioned Sawk being able to beat both Weezing/Garbodor and doing about 33% minimum to Mesprit/Musharna with Earthquake. I hate using U-Turn as an argument, but like PNerd said, Fighting-types with U-Turn tend to have a large effect on the metagame. i.e Mienfoo/Mienshao in their respective or former tiers. Gurdurr is a fantastic Pokemon with some support, and because of that, it's A+.

    One of the most powerful Pokemon in the tier, Zangoose is definitely a Pokemon you should watch out for. I could agree for A+, like you said, it'd be a lot better if it stayed alive/wasn't as frail. Its Speed tier is quite good for an offensive Pokemon in NU, esp. a frail one, I imagine Zangoose losing effectiveness with Dusclops in the tier but theorymon is theorymon. My main problem with putting Zangoose up to A+ is its inability to stay alive for a long time, especially because Spike Stacking has gotten a lot popular as of late. I don't think Zangoose's Speed tier can make up for its Toxic Orb timer, I think it could go A, I'm a bit skeptical about A+. Again if anybody has opinions, post 'em and odds are my mind will change.

    Its Rain Dance set is deadly, although it doesn't set-up for free, a Rain Dance is almost impossible to stop without a Special Defensive Pokemon like Licki/Audino and even that takes like a load of damage. Of course its Sp Def set is fantastic, being one of the only things to beat Samurott without Megahorn. Rain Dance is able to poke holes in any type of Offense, while SubSeed creates a nuisance to defensive teams. I thought Ludi should've been mid A when we made this, I don't mind A+. People posted about it to so you shall get your wish buddy :].

    I could agree with this. A lot of Pokemon are unable to beat Drifblim until they know what set it is. I've used both Drifblim in the last month or two and a lot of people assume Acrobatics right off the bat, and Unburden boosting Speed is a pretty big deal because you put Dark-types in a predicament of Sucker Punch/Pursuit, and its worse than usual because they don't move first. I agree w/ A-.

    Minor ones:

    Gardevoir's ability to run a multitude of more than viable sets is important because you'll never be able to take on Gardevoir unless you know the exact set, because Pokemon who beat the LO Destiny Bond set tend to lose vs. the Stall break set, while trappers commonly lose to Calm Mind (They run Sub + fighting move, I'm being a bit generous) I understand your point, I just feel like it's near impossible to beat Gardevoir without knowing the set, and no trapper wants to switch directly into Gardevoir.

    Tbh I'm fine with this, your Vileplume has to be defensive to take a +2 Double-Edge iirc, but Tangela shuts it down no doubt. I mean Mach Punch is used exclusively by Gurdurr and maybe some of the reaaaally low Fighting-types on the bottom of NU Stats. Although with minimum support, Sawsbuck is able to do heavy damage. I'll ask for more opinions on this. Definite possibility

    iirc I said Piloswine should be A+ as well, so I'm definitely in favor of this decision. Piloswine also has access to Roar/Toxic which are great support moves and beats the Pokemon who try to come in and take advantage of Piloswine, which is rare. i.e Alomomola/CM Mesprit. Sounds good to me buddy.

    Yeah agreed, it single-handedly destroyed your entire life in POWC so I'd be upset about it too. :[ Jk, yeah agreed, it doesn't just have a niche on Stall, it's a great glue to a team with its Dark/Dragon typing, resisting a lot of moves. With minimal support it's able to wall a heavy amount of special attackers in the tier. I understand your point though, I'd like to hear more opinions on it as well.

    You're right, I mean Base Stats don't truly play into walling capabilities sometimes, since Alomomola is used more because of the Pokemon it walls. Although Tangela is bulkier, Alomomola is able to take on the most common Emboar sets in Band/Scarf, and Water is generally better defensive typing. Since Grass has a lot of weaknesses, but nonetheless, anything neutral and even some super effective physical attacks are shrugged off and Tangela usually isn't set-up fodder because its Special Attack is high enough to utilize Hidden Power Fire/Ice/Rock. Afro said something remotely smart... Weird.

    Agreed. Changed.

    Shedinja is pretty good if supported properly, unfortunately it's not just spinning, you have to do everything in your power not to allow your opponent to get hazards on the field. Natu is commonly used alongside Shedinja, and even spin support coupled with that. Also the inability to take more status is a huge bust, since Shedinja dies automatically to Toxic or WoW. Definitely a possibility.

    Agreed, it's so much set-up fodder it hurts. But yeah, basically as niche as niche can get. C+ is good though, Changed.

    Quiver Dance is p good too, a bit less useful but yeah just another set. Am fine with this too, changed.

    Summary of changes so far:

    Possible changes:
    Zangoose A- > A+
    Gardevoir A+ > A-
    Gurdurr A+ > S
    Sawsbuck A > A-
    Shedinja C- > C+

    Definite Changes:
    Mandibuzz A > A+
    Drifblim B+ > A-
    Ludicolo A- > A+
    Piloswine A- > A+
    Tangela A- > A
    Gabite C- > C+
    Tentacool C- > C+
    Butterfree C- > C+

    When you see this, discuss your opinions on any of the Pokemon listed in the Possible Changes category.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  38. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw Samph rejects me Tier Leader

    Messages:
    1,110
    PO Trainer Name:
    Afro Smash
    Nigga you done fucked up the secrets in the proper list, fix dat real quick.

    @Primeape I was just using the 80% to Sawk as an example to show it really doesn't hit hard at all, and that's with it's STAB Close Combat, all it's other moves on the set, even if they're hitting SE are still underwhelming vs any mon with a shred of bulk. Like I've said U-Turn is Primeape's only saving grace, albeit a good one that allows it to be a good scout, however it's lack of power, and piss poor Defense takes away from its ability to reliably revenge kill a lot of things. And hello when have I ever talked about Dark/Psychic/Fighting Cores being OP, I only ever said that Sawk within that core made the core too strong, and now we have a lot more Checks to Sawk so it isn't a problem anymore. Primeape is just too weak to considered an S pokemon, and is certainly no better than Gurdurr.

    @Gurdurr Yh A+ is fine I guess if we're going off the ranking descriptions, as it does require a lot more support than the other S mons however I believe Gurdurr to be just as Effective as Sawk in the metagame.

    @Zangoose I actually think Zangoose should be S rank, but i'm willin to settle for it being A+ rank. As P Nerd said Zangoose is as powerful as CB Sawk except it has the ability to change moves and can hit common bulky pokes in the tier like Musharna + Mesprit with Facade for an easy 2HKO, and has perfect coverage with Night Slash and Close Combat, meaning it can take on Ghost Types a lot better than Sawk. And the Spike Stack argument is a 2 way street, because with Hazard support Zangoose can OHKO about 95% of the Tier, and Quick Attack + Hazards can easily clean late game. Quick Attack also gives it a huge boost vs Offensive teams, it's base 90 Speed is quite nice for NU but being able to deal 50% to almost all common Offensive pokemon can be invaluable in sweeping or revenge killing. It's frailty means you can't really ever switch it in, and Toxic Orb does lower it's survivability a lot, however the damage it can cause in the x amount of turns it's alive, vs any playstyle means it should be S rank imo, though as i said i'll settle for A+ rank cuz u suck. Also because it can be worn down quite quickly if the opponent pivot switches around a lot.

    @Gardevoir Ok lets just settle for an A rank, I can see it's Specs set coming in real useful in disrupting Stall in the coming weeks, and it's D Bond set can usually drag down a Dark type with it (very good to pair D bond Garde with something like Mush btw, clean out Mush's counters) However it's choiced sets are still very easy to revenge kill, and it's Physical Frailness means Priority and Physical Scarfers can revenge kill it easily too, it's good but not reliable enough (by that I mean not guaranteed to be effective every game) to be A+ imo.

    @Sawsbuck It's Sweeping set looks really good on paper however it rarely gets to sweep as it's weak to Mach Punch + Ice Shard, 2 fairly common Priority moves in NU, and more importantly is beaten by every relevant Scarfer, Sawk, Primeape, Rotom's, Electabuzz, Gardevoir, Mesprit, Charizard, Emboar the list goes on, all have a move that can OHKO Sawsbuck, so it never really has the chance to Sweep. And it's ability is pretty irrelevant since as I said it loses To all common Grass types even if it gets the Sap Sipper boost, and really doesn't want to risk switching in to Vileplume or Exeggutor. However it's Speed and movepool are nice, and it can be very effective Vs bulky offense, so i think A- suits it well (it certainly ain't better than Bouff, fuckin blasphemy havin it higher tbh.)

    @Zweilous
    Tired. Of. You. Especially seeing as your Zweilous did jack shit all match, it was your Gothorita that swept me, and you only won cuz I got triple Para'd with Houndoom, but lets leave it there, cuz i don't wanna ruin ur godly never haxin image. But honestly Zweilous is a good mon cuz typing, but as i said it's too niche to be considered A rank, it's bulky Attacker set and Rest Talk sets are good, however neither are reliable because of Hustle, and Rest Talk is only usable on Stall, B/B+.

    Act like I ain't chattin sense 24/7, you've only just come round to my wisdom my boy, ur worlds about to be rocked.

    @Shedinja idrc where this goes because i don't really care for the mon, however you can just pair it with Natu and it gets basically all the support it needs, however Natu shares a weakness to Ghost and Dark (Pursuit Trappers!) and is weak to a lot of common Stealth Rockers STAB Atks. But Sheddy is so effective with the support, and can definitely have very powerful teams built around it.

    @ Bouff My nigga deserves that clean A rank imo, it's like the only pokemon that can take advantage of Sap Sipper, being able to destroy things with a CB attack after the boost, or running a Sub SD set that can set up on a lot of pokemon, including the Grass types he walls. It's bulk allows it to set up on a lot of Walls in NU, so can easily get behind a Sub and get to +2 and 2HKO everything in the tier, it's CB set is a crazy good wall breaker, 2HKOing Alo after rocks, and having access to Megahorn which deals 70% to Musharna, allowing it to be a very effective check, and gets nice Edge Quake coverage. It's only downside is that it's relatively low Speed leave it open to be revenge killed by a lot of pokemon with Access to a Strong Fighting move, e.g. Zangoose, Absol, Sawk, Primeape, all of which are pretty common, and it's Sub SD set can be walled by Haunter/Misdreavus/Drifblim (unless you're pro and run Iron Head, whic you should imo.) It's ability to wall break, Check most Grass types, great bulk and ability to set up on a lot of the tier makes it A rank worthy imo (or at least 1 place higher than wherever Sawsbuck goes.)

    I'll edit in some niche mons that can be C rank later, and probs argue some other changes too, cuz controversy is fun.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
  39. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

    Messages:
    246
    PO Trainer Name:
    Alfalfa
    I really question why Stunfisk is so high up. It does have a great movepool, but it is very slow, and lacks reliable recovery, making it very easily worn down. If it had like reliable recovery, then maybe it would be A Rank Material, but this is not BW1, where the tiers were more forgiving. Stunfisk is weak to so many common threats - Samurott, Golem, Rhydon, Sawsbuck, you name it - Stunfisk is taking shittons from them. It belongs more like C Rank, as while it is good in some aspects, it gets worn down WAY too easily.
  40. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

    Messages:
    134
    PO Trainer Name:
    AmourShipper
    No problems with what was moved!

    Gardevoir is fine where it is imo, it's an offensive powerhouse and its Speed tier, while not extraordinary, is still pretty decent in NU. It has a wide movepool, so it can use CM or All-Out Attacker to be a really powerful force, or it can use Specs/Scarf, Choice Scarf is also really good. Specially Defensive is nice too to stallbreak to an extent, while Trace is a stupidly good ability, which means Gardevoir is pretty splashable on any team that needs an answer to RD Ludicolo/Seismitoad etc. Fits well in High A iimo.

    Zangoose is definitely A+ material imo. While it has problems with the timer it's placed on and inability to take a hit, after the Toxic Boost Zangoose hits really hard. It can switch between moves with great coverage so it can terrorize teams while Toxic benefits it in the sense so Dusclops can't burn it and it's not able to be paralyzed by Musharna or Mesprit either.

    I can't agree with Gurdurr to S though. Gurdurr is an excellent Pokemon no doubt, which is A+ for sure, but I feel the prominence of Psychic-types and Poison-types hurts Gurdurr's performance, as they counter Gurdurr rather well. It's still a great mon, but not up to par with the S-Rank threats.

    I'm iffy on Sawsbuck, idk, I really like it. The SD set is pretty powerful and after a set up it's a pretty neat win condition, Sap Sipper is cool too. It's kinda hard to set up though, I think it's fine where it's at, though I don't feel too strongly about it.

    Shedinja is actually kind of effective, and although it needs full team support, Shedinja can perform really well with it. Hazards help it sweep, while Natu can bounce hazards and Wartortle is great at pulling off spins. It's pretty decent and deserves to be moved up imo.

    Some proposals of my own:

    [​IMG] Absol to A. Absol is simply a boss. It hits pretty damn hard, and Sucker Punch+Superpower is excellent coverage, while Absol can use SD, go mixed, or trap. With the prominent Psychic-types dominating (Gardevoir, Mesprit, Musharna) along with Dusclops and Misdreavus around, Absol's Dark STAB is incredibly valuable. Sucker Punch and the power make Absol a great sweeper, revenge killer, and wallbreaker all in one, and it is one hell of a force to be reckoned with. Definitely A imo.

    [​IMG] Dusclops to A (or at least A-) Dusclops is broken imo. This thing is an incredible defensive Pokemon, as its bulk is so great that nothing can OHKO it in a common scenario. Being the ultimate check to Sawk and Primeape only sweetens the deal, and Dusclops can stall with CurseSplit or RestTalk and overall be a pain in the ass. It can also run EQ to murder Houndoom and put up a fight with Skuntank and Drapion, and the burns are great to wall. At least A- imo, if not higher.

    [​IMG] Ferroseed to A Probably one of the best spikers in the tier. Its typing is very useful defensively, giving it good resistances to set up Spikes, while it has Leech Seed to heal and other support moves like T-Wave. It has great synergy with Dusclops, Ferroseed+Dusclops is a deadly combination, hazards are really good right now. Ferroseed is one of the most useful mons imo and is A.

    [​IMG] Dusknoir to B It's okay. It's outclassed by Dusclops in most regards because of the bulk, but Dusknoir does come with decent offensive presence, and it's not terrible at what it does. Good but not great is what I think of it.

    [​IMG] Eelektross to B+ (or maybe A-) This thing is really good. Eelektross's slow Volt Switch is very useful, to allow in a Zangoose or Swellow to grab the status boost easily and proceed to wreck the opposition. It's also a strong offensive threat on its own with T-bolt and great coverage to lay some great damage. It's good, needs to be higher up.

    [​IMG] Armaldo to C It's bad. Sucks at Rapid Spinning and provides no defensive synergy. It's okay on rain, but not worth using otherwise.
    [/HIDE]

    Just some thoughts

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