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UU Suspect Thread: Azelf

Discussion in 'UU' started by Jcpdragonx, Feb 27, 2011.

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  1. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx the business business

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    [​IMG]
    Discuss the possibility of Azelf being banned or not.

    Make intelligent posts, avoid talking about things you didn't test, especially if they're from 4th gen.

    Try finding counters, checks, and threats to Azelf, try to give an estimate of its power, and what it does very well.

    Then say your opinion on its tiering.

    If a consensus is reached after several days of discussion, backed by people who do well on the ladder, then it'll probably be adopted. Don't forget this is for Dream World UU.

    Approved by Bad Romance
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  2. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx the business business

    Messages:
    796
    So I have been abusing Azelf's Nasty Plot set, and with it, I got 2 alts 1300+ alts in a few hours (hard to ladder with not many people on). It has other sets, but the Nplot set tears everything up. The standard lead set was nerfed due to explosion's nerf. A set of SR/Taunt/U-turn/Psychic or Fire Blast isn't very hard to wall, but it still gets its job done with ease. I havn't tested the CB set but I assume its very good. I've tried Specs which was okay, but I didn't like being locked in, and my opponent could switch into the appropriate counter. Anyway, here is the set and reason why Azelf is suspect.

    Azelf @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Nasty Plot
    - Psycho Shock
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunderbolt/Grass Knot/Substitute

    115 Base Speed out speeds most of the metagame, including the 3 fighting horses which all get 1hkoed by an unboosted Psycho Shock/Fire Blast. Psycho Shock hits though Special Walls such as Chansey and Snorlax. Fire Blast is for coverage to hit Steels, and the last move is a filler. Tbolt or Gknot to hit waters and other Pokemon weak to it, while Substitue lets you safely set up and avoid Sucker Punch.

    I'm too tired to do cals atm, but if you look at the top 50 Pokemon, Azelf can outspeed and KO over 90% of them, sometimes even without an Nplot.

    If you think it isn't worthy of being suspect, trying testing it a bit, then decide.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  3. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz The Asscrack Bandit

    Messages:
    874
    PO Trainer Name:
    Stephen Colbur
    Well, in my experience, Azelf is a top-tier UU pokemon. It has access a great movepool that provides it with perfect coverage and has a good set-up move in Nasty Plot. It can go physical, mixed and has high enough base speed to outspeed most of the tier. However, it is extremely weak to priority and has a fairly difficult time setting up. I am not certain as of yet whether it is worthy of being deemed broken for the tier, but I will try to get some testing done so I can contribute a bit more.
  4. yiran

    yiran You can only use one coin.

    Messages:
    1,700
    I've been using Azelf on my DW UU team (Nasty Plot set), but it didn't work that well, so I swapped it off.

    Choice Scarf also counters Azelf badly, as does Crobat, Jolteon, Weavile, etc.

    I don't think it should go.
  5. CrashinBoomBang

    CrashinBoomBang :{|}

    Messages:
    289
    My problem with Azelf is that it has equal offenses, which means that both special and physical, even mixed sets are completely viable, which means that the Azelf you're facing could Nasty Plot as you switch to your physical wall, or CB Zen Headbutt your Chansey switching in. It also gets Psycho Shock which means that Special walls can't really stand up to it whether it's a physical or special set. As far as counters go, Shadow Ball Meloetta seems like a decent one, but I'm sure it will neither like heavily boosted fire attacks nor will it like Choice Banded U-turn or even Zen Headbutt.

    Like Vuvu, I'm still undecided, seeing that it needs that one crucial turn to set up before it can really sweep teams, which isn't easy with priority everywhere and its not-so-great defenses.
  6. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx the business business

    Messages:
    796
    Please explain why it didn't work. Also, Azelf beats all 3 of the Pokemon you listed if they switch into Azelf subbing.
  7. Aurist

    Aurist SIX walls. NO synergy.

    Messages:
    2,163
    I have to admit, I was a little shocked at seeing this suspected at first. I'm not gonna be able to say if I think it's broken or not in this post. I do think that it is an excellent pokemon able to run threatening offenses on either side of the spectrum, and has a good support movepool too; although it's very frail, even the support-oriented sets can hit hard with things like U-Turn and its huge movepool gives it great coverage (near-perfect) and adds an even greater depth of versatility to a pokemon that is already quite difficult to predict. It's difficult to call though, and as of this moment I'm a little inclined to say that it should stay. 115 offenses, even with a movepool that good, seems a lot easier to check than former suspects Hihidaruma and Terakion's respective 140 and 129, and those two also have much better STABs, offensively-oriented abilities, and Terakion has a significantly higher bulk (Hihi's isn't that much lower, in all honesty). Azelf does have a marginally higher speed stat than Terakion and quite a bit higher than Hihidaruma. I think I focused on those two pokemon to see if I could work some kind of perspective (pokemon that were tested and allowed to stay in the tier). Need to test this thing out a lot more than I have.
  8. yiran

    yiran You can only use one coin.

    Messages:
    1,700
    Right, Substitute.

    Physical sets are walled by most physical walls (with exceptions like Weezing).

    Special sets are walled by Chansey. Psycho Shock is a problem, though...

    Anyways, Substitute is a problem. I think Drapion can counter the substitutes... although I haven't done any calcualations.

    My Azelf didn't work since even after a Nasty Plot it didn't kill stuff. It's moveset was Thunderbolt / Flamethrower / Shadow Ball.
  9. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

    Messages:
    1,155
    While Azelfs offenses and speed are godly for the tier, his sweeper set will run into the same problem it did back in 4th gen OU, setting him up is pretty hard as with those defenses he can't take repeated hits at all. Levitate does keep him from being worn down by a large amount of hazards though, so I think it has merits of being a suspect with CB or mix. I'll have to try him and come back with a verdict.
  10. Noog

    Noog So much potential...

    Messages:
    350
    The thing about Azelf is that it's unpredictable with its equal attacking stats and movepool. It can run all three types of offensive sets (physical, special and mixed) as well as a support set. Suspecting a special or physical set? Whoops, it's a mixed one. Also, it's quite powerful on both ends -- with a Nasty Plot, it can O/2HKO quite a bit of the tier. It's also the one of the fastest Pokémon in the tier, only under Ninjask, Electrode, Crobat and Weavile, I believe.

    @Aurist: Actually, it has 125 in both offensive stats, which isn't much lower than Terakion's 129 base Attack, and certainly much more versatile than Hihi's 140 base Attack and 30 base SpA. That itself certainly puts it at a possible suspect, but add in 115 base Speed and a very large movepool, and you get an offensive monster.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2011
  11. at ease

    at ease New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Azelf may have monstrous offensive stats, but it's very frail and psychic typing makes just about any pokemon more manageable. It doesn't have many hard counters but I find that it's pretty easy to play around. It can't set up on too much at all and if it does there's always SUCKA PAWNCH, or any priority really, so long as you do decent damage to it as it sets up (and what pokemon can't do significant damage to azelf? just don't let it get a sub) Then there's always powerful scarfers.

    Actually countering Azelf requires a bit of prediction, but I just don't think it's much of a problem. Pretty much everything I said applies to the nasty plot set, as I don't even see the other sets as anywhere near worthy of making it a suspect. I'll address them if brought up, but I think we're mostly thinking nasty plot here.

    I believe Azelf is fine in UU.
  12. Aurist

    Aurist SIX walls. NO synergy.

    Messages:
    2,163
    well i sure look like an ass, don't i. not sure where i got 115 offenses from. Definitely worth testing. It being a frail psychic type is definitely a huge disadvantage though. But right now I'm a little inclined to say BL.
  13. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

    Messages:
    1,155
    I've ran a specs set with pretty good success, it only ever really falls to scarfers as I can trick the specs onto walls and sucker punchers. Psycho Shock also throws things like Milotic and Chansey for a loop. It's not as good against HO, but the choicetrick sets really ruin the conventional stall team that isn't carrying Spiritomb.
  14. yiran

    yiran You can only use one coin.

    Messages:
    1,700
    Stofil, every choicetricker ruins stall teams. (Also I lol when they recieve a Black Sludge).

    But anyways, Azelf doesn't really have any problems. It kills a lot of pokemon and walls, yes, but Terakion barely OHKO's Chansey with Close Combat, let alone Azelf.
  15. Aurist

    Aurist SIX walls. NO synergy.

    Messages:
    2,163
    I think it's more than established that next to nothing OHKOs Chansey, so Azelf, who doesn't have a STAB fighting move, obviously isn't going to be able to. It's certainly not a reason to say that it shouldn't be banned, especially considering as of now Chansey is a suspect itself.

    Also, choicetrickers ruin one pokemon on a stall team. Good stall teams can deal with that, easily.
  16. BenXxX

    BenXxX Banned

    Messages:
    150
    I used a specs azelf with Psychic, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball with a Timid nature and it was probably the main reason I got to 1st on the ladder (I'm not 1st anymore though). But I have fought a lot of azelfs and the Nastly Plot, Sub, Psycho Shock and Flamethrower set is probably the best as your not locked into one move and with a NP up it can 2HKO or OHKO nearly all the tier. I've only come across about 2 or 3 CB sets and they sure aren't as threatning like the NP or even Specs set but they are good for that one time surprise factor as your opponent send out a special wall. The scarf set I've only seen once and it is devastating if your not prepered for it or for it to be a mix scarf. But there is one pokemon that can pretty much hard counter it if it hasn't set up and that is Dusclops with the evo stone and if it is a trickchoice azelf the only way it will trick you is by sending it in against you and you could predict it and send out your own scarcer or some one to take the scarf. Also Dusclops can W-o-W it if it's a CB Azelf and if it's not S-Toss does a good amount anyways. I believe 2 S-Tosses and 1 Shadow Sneak can KO it. But I highly suggest it should be BL.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2011
  17. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

    Messages:
    1,155
    This is true, but ruining one part of a defensive core that really is the only thing to stop Azelf (Chansey in this case) is pretty huge when you're sitting on base 125 in both offensive stats. I've had a lot less success with the NP set for some reason, if you run sub you lose important coverage and if you don't Azelf is too frail to set up reliably...

    My initial impressions is that Azelf really isn't broken for the time being, of course I haven't actually met anyone using him yet.
  18. Hikari

    Hikari Administrator

    Messages:
    3,117
    I can't do the calcs right now (writing from my phone <_< ), but when I tested Azelf I did some calcs and I remember +2 Psycho Shock does 80%ish to 252/252 bold chansey and can even OHKO with entry hazards and/or prior damage, Chansey is not "stopping" Azelf any time soon.

    PS: If someone post some relevant calcs it would be great, if no one do it I'll do it myself later.
  19. Blue_Star

    Blue_Star Banned

    Messages:
    298
    Azelf is BL IMO. It has 115 speed, which outspeeds 95% of the metagame. Not only that, its offensive stats are superior to that of Giratina-O and Arceus. It also has awesome special attacks like Psycho Shock, ThunderBolt, Grass Knot, Fire Blast, as well as physical attacks like the elemental punches, Zen Headbutt, U-turn. It can also double its special attack with Nasty Plot. On top of that, it's very hard to revenge kill it given its speed and neutrality to every priority barring the unreliable Sucker Punch and the never used Shadow Sneak. And it's not that horribly frail: it has defenses superior to that of Xatu, who is used as a wall.
  20. fidgety

    fidgety New Member

    Messages:
    1,539
    the difference is xatu has recovery which is why it really gets used as such, but azelf is definitely too much for uu as it is nasty plot/psycho shock/fire blast/idk could be used as a stall breaker, physical sets are good, special ones are rediculous, and there are mixed sets as well.
  21. yiran

    yiran You can only use one coin.

    Messages:
    1,700
    Set-Up Azelfs hate Choice Scarfers that force them out. They are really frail. (Psychic doesn't help much either). Glass cannons (even with high speed) just won't work.
  22. Hikari

    Hikari Administrator

    Messages:
    3,117
    Well because you guys are lazy i'll do it (btw i though the standard wish set on smogn was 252/252 bold >_> ):

    [hide]+2 252 Sp. Atk Azelf Psycho Break vs 252/252 Bold Chansey: 62.2% - 73.3%

    +2 252 Sp. Atk Azelf Grass Knot vs 252/0 Bold Suicune: 139.8% - 165%

    +2 252 Sp. Atk Azelf Grass Knot vs 252/56 Calm Milotic: 100% - 117.8%

    +2 252 Sp. Atk Azelf Fire Blast vs 252/252 Careful Registeel: 97.8% - 115.4%

    +2 252 Sp. Atk Azelf Shadow Ball vs 252/0 Bold Cresselia: 79.3% - 93.7%

    +2 252 Sp. Atk Azelf Shadow Ball vs 252/0 Bold Cofagrigus: 131.9% - 155.6%

    +2 252 Sp. Atk Azelf Shadow Ball vs 252/0 Bold Deoxys-D: 96.1% - 113.2%

    +2 252 Sp. Atk Azelf Thunderbolt vs 252/252 Calm Alomomola: 112% - 131.8%

    CB 252 Atk Azumarril Aqua Jet vs 0/4 Timid Azelf: 55% - 64.9%

    0 Sp. Atk Milotic Surf vs 0/0 Timid Azelf: 46.7% - 55.7%

    0 Sp. Atk Cresselia Shadow Ball vs 0/0 Timid Azelf: 41.9% - 49.5%[/hide]
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
  23. yiran

    yiran You can only use one coin.

    Messages:
    1,700
    I think the main problem with Azelf is its unpredictability. If you know it's moves you can just switch into a counter - it could have Fire Blast, Psycho Break, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, Shadow Ball, Nasty Plot. For example, if Azelf lacked Psycho Break, Chansey would wall it. If Azelf lacked Grass Knot, Gastrodon (maybe...) would wall it. If Azelf lacks Shadow Ball, Cresselia would wall it, etc.
  24. Groudon Ramsay

    Groudon Ramsay Active Member

    Messages:
    1,705
    Bad Romance, Ice-eyes and I are all in agreement, and Azelf is now BL. Its Nasty Plot set is far too hard to check in the current metagame. Thank you for participating in the dicussion.
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